MrCheerios wrote:PeptoKlepto wrote:MrCheerios wrote:A guy who could play elite defense and drop 22ppg, on good percentages, in 32mpg is a glorified 3+D player? How many teams have that luxury? Neither Harden nor Westbrook have that kind of sidekick now.
Yes, that's exactly what he was - a glorified 3+D player. Back then he had no idea how to drive to the rim or create his own shot (he still has trouble with this aspect in his offense). He couldn't handle, play-make for others, or grab rebounds (he has a terrible rebounding rate for a 6'7 SG)...all he did literally was sit outside the arc and wait for Curry to give him open looks.
And really, this isn't up for debate. Curry more than doubled Harden's net rating, and had him beat in TS%, assist rate, TO rate, WS/48 and VORP - and led the Warriors to a league best and Warriors best (at the time) 67 win season.
Yet somehow Harden should've won that MVP because "worse team" and today Harden should win MVP despite Westbrook being on the worse team.
Despite whatever limitations you think Thompson had that year, he was a luxury that other MVP candidates usually do not have. Imagine if Westbrook had a player that could score at that rate, shooting those percentages, and play top rate defense. The Thunder would be considerably better and Westbrook would undoubtedly have more assists. His rebounding rate and passing ability are afterthoughts when his frontcourt consists of Green and Bogut and he had Livingston and Iggy off the bench. The team was well constructed and did not require those skills from him.
The matter is clearly debatable, as Curry was not a unanimous MVP and Harden won the Players Association vote for MVP. Other are allowed to disagree with you. And some of the advanced stats you reference Curry winning are influenced by the quality of teammates and team scheme anyway (TS%, AST %, TO%, VORP).
And how is Harden having a "worse" team than Curry a sarcastic air quote-worty statement, while Westbrook's supporting cast being worse obvious to you? Who would OKC trade for Adams, Kanter, and Oladipo for on Houston's current roster? I would've traded Houston's whole 14-15 starting lineup for Golden State's!
Just wanted to point out some facts:
- Harden started the 14-15 with a big stretch with Joey Dorsey and Tarik Black. Joey freaking Dorsey.
- He finished the season without Beverly and DMo.
- Dwight was in and out of the lineup, missing half season.
- Terrance Jones, our starting PF, played 34 games. Thirty Four.
- You guys were debating on Klay this and that, there were also Draymond Green, Iguodala, Livingston. Name a guy on 14-15 Houston bench who can do things like those 3. But of course, 'Curry made them who they were', and 'without Curry, they would just be another Papanikolaou, Josh Smith, Jason Terry'.
And yet Harden took them to 2nd in the West that year. Westbrook is in exactly the same situation this year, except they are 7th. If OKC finish the season in top 4, I think he equally deserves the MVP as much as Harden, if not more.
And PeptoKlepto, save your advanced stats please. The way you bring them up is totally biased because you know why? Every single time, you listed the columns Curry beats Harden, but not vice versa. For that reason I have no interest drilling into those stats anymore, and some of those advanced stats are less meaningful anyway. Just like Harden averages 27ppg over Curry's 23ppg - I wouldn't use it against Curry because he sat out so many 4th quarters.
This 'oh why you think Harden deserves in 14-15 but now Westbrook doesn't in 16-17' thing really need to be put to rest.
