ImageImage

Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft?

Moderators: fatlever, JDR720, Diop, BigSlam, yosemiteben

User avatar
fatlever
Senior Mod - Hornets
Senior Mod - Hornets
Posts: 58,934
And1: 15,520
Joined: Jun 04, 2001
Location: Terrapin Station
     

Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#1 » by fatlever » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:54 pm

Would you guys be interested in a mid-season scavenger hunt draft? The board has been a little slow lately and the SHD has always been a good way to get some participation.

In the summer we had a really active draft, with parameters from 1976-2016. I'm thinking this time we narrow the focus and pick a single decade - 80s, 90s, 00s, only current year or really old school and maybe it pre-ABA, or we could get totally crazy and have an ABA draft. We found this summer that with the new space/pace 3-ball era of hoops taking over, it's harder than ever to compare players from today to even 10 years ago. That's why I would suggest we do all current or pick a historic point in time.

We also can come to a solid agreement on how to determine a winner, since last time it was a bit of a grey area.

If we can get 8-14 people interested, then we can get to work picking parameters and categories.

Here is a link to the draft from the summer for anyone curious
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1464472

So far
1. Fats
2. Diop
3. Flip
4. Ian
5. Braggins
6. Batum
7. Lamar
8. Yosemite
User avatar
Diop
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 40,392
And1: 20,757
Joined: Jul 24, 2004
Location: Diop Dead Ugly
 

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#2 » by Diop » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:43 am

I'm always keen for a draft
Image
User avatar
Flip Murray
Hornets Forum Spelling Bee
Posts: 4,365
And1: 1,987
Joined: Jul 05, 2012
 

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#3 » by Flip Murray » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:30 am

I'm down. I really need a chance to redeem myself after last time
Image
User avatar
Diop
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 40,392
And1: 20,757
Joined: Jul 24, 2004
Location: Diop Dead Ugly
 

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#4 » by Diop » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:22 am

Flip Murray wrote:I'm down. I really need a chance to redeem myself after last time

If you don't draft Flip Murray this time, I'm going to change your name.

Which means I have to draft Diop, win - win
Image
User avatar
-Ian-
Analyst
Posts: 3,101
And1: 860
Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Location: Philippines
Contact:
 

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#5 » by -Ian- » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:37 am

I'm in.

I noticed that the game threads haven't been that active and some of the regular posters in the past have been MIA lately.
User avatar
BatumtheGlue
Starter
Posts: 2,077
And1: 457
Joined: Nov 17, 2015
Location: Borneo Island (Central Borneo)
   

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#6 » by BatumtheGlue » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:03 pm

Count me in.
Image
Mamut menteng ureh utusku, isen mulang jite penyangku.
Credit to amcoolio for the signature .gif.
Braggins
RealGM
Posts: 14,479
And1: 9,275
Joined: Jan 05, 2014

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#7 » by Braggins » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:07 pm

If theres a good chance of me possibly being able to draft some version of Wilt Chamberlain, then yes.
User avatar
LamarMatic7
Hornets Forum High-End Journalist
Posts: 9,792
And1: 2,381
Joined: Jan 02, 2011
Location: Latvia
Contact:
   

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#8 » by LamarMatic7 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:20 pm

down like four flat tires.
Image
User avatar
fatlever
Senior Mod - Hornets
Senior Mod - Hornets
Posts: 58,934
And1: 15,520
Joined: Jun 04, 2001
Location: Terrapin Station
     

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#9 » by fatlever » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:21 pm

So far
1. Fats
2. Diop
3. Flip
4. Ian
5. Braggins
6. Batum
7. Lamar
8. Yosemite
User avatar
LamarMatic7
Hornets Forum High-End Journalist
Posts: 9,792
And1: 2,381
Joined: Jan 02, 2011
Location: Latvia
Contact:
   

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#10 » by LamarMatic7 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:16 pm

I've been thinking about the era we could choose. Threes (and thus modern spacing), the difference in styles of play in various eras and players becoming more athletic are the three things that bother any reasonable comparisons, in my opinion.

How about eliminating the knowledge we have about 3-pointers now and going with a time during which not shooting them wasn't a deal breaker? Someone like Danny Ainge making them obviously helped his teams, but you could still be the pre-Michael Cooper Lakers and win the title as the team which is last in 3Ps.

For that reason I suggest we could go with 1976-77 until 1991-92 as 92-93 seems to be the year during which the biggest leap occurred up to that point (the average number of attempts grew by almost 20%, then the shortened 3-point line came along in 93-94).

I think that it also creates a pool of relatively comparable athletes and teams. The style of the game started to change to a more slower and heavily playcalled at the start of the 90s so some of the players played on teams that wouldn't have existed in the late 70s, but other than that I think it works.

If you take an outside player who played before the 3-point line, it's not hard to imagine him in the 80s. He would have gone 2 for 10 for the season and that's it. But I also believe that we should have those random weird NBA years. Plenty of cool guys from that crop. Sticking with the post-merger years also prevents us from pondering about weird early 70s stats in two weaker leagues.

The 1991 draft class is pretty old school (not having 92 eliminates Shaq who would have been unreal in the late 70s probably) and you would still only get those guys as only rookies. The stars have similarities. Drexler vs. Erving isn't won by the younger guy because of more contemporary athleticism. Ewing won't be the unreal modern big who stretches the floor when compared to Moses Malone. Guys like Paul Westphal can hang on the wing versus Jeff Malone.

In short, the athletic freaks and outlier 3-point shooters were few and notable for that as much back then as we would point that out now.
Image
User avatar
yosemiteben
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 22,240
And1: 15,477
Joined: Mar 20, 2013
   

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#11 » by yosemiteben » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:06 pm

I'm in.
User avatar
fatlever
Senior Mod - Hornets
Senior Mod - Hornets
Posts: 58,934
And1: 15,520
Joined: Jun 04, 2001
Location: Terrapin Station
     

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#12 » by fatlever » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:01 pm

@Lamar - I feel like we've used that 76-77 cut-off for several years and maybe have ignored some quality early 70s guys. What if we did a 70-90 draft? NBA only. It would fall into your range of similar styles, for the most part. What would be the downside of adding 70-76?
User avatar
yosemiteben
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 22,240
And1: 15,477
Joined: Mar 20, 2013
   

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#13 » by yosemiteben » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:03 pm

Not looking like it'll be a problem, but if we fill up or if someone wants to join late I'll offer up my squad for newcomers.
Braggins
RealGM
Posts: 14,479
And1: 9,275
Joined: Jan 05, 2014

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#14 » by Braggins » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:16 am

In regards to Lamars idea, Id rather just go by current basketball knowledge but give older players the benefit of the doubt on a couple things. We could just assume that guys from the pre-2000s era would have been better at 3pt shooting had it been emphasized in their day. You could use free throw percentage and general shooting prowess to get an idea of who had aptitude for 3pt shooting. Like if someone from the 70s/80s was a good free throw and mid range shooter, but didnt shoot any or many 3s (maybe had a shaky % on low volume), we could just assume that guy would be at least a solid 3pt shooter had he focused on it. Basically, wed be grading that aspect on a curve with more leeway given the farther back we go. For athleticism, we basically do the same thing. Assume the farther back we go the more handicapped players were athletically and judge them more relative to their era. I think the difference in athleticism gets a bit exaggerrated anyways, so it wouldnt take a whole lot of extrapolation there. Wed probably need to do something similar for dribbling, since ball handling was more restricted by the rules in the older era.

Doing it this way takes some imagination and makes things a bit more subjective, but i really dont like the idea of ignoring current basketball knowledge/rules. Seems like it makes team building more shallow and less interesting and wed just end up comparing teams based on individual scoring and defense with far less regard for fit and team construction.

I dont really think lack of 3 point shooting is a deal breaker for a player now anyways. You just have to limit how many guys like that you have in any given lineup. I think you can still make great teams with current knowledge/rules that only play 3-4 floor spacers at a time. Theyd need to be superior in other areas compared to teams playing 4-5 spacers, but that seems fair to me. For instance, compare a team of Curry/Korver/Durant/Milsap/Divac and a team of GPayton/RMiller/Lebron/Garnett/Olajuwon. Both teams are stacked. The first team has three knockdown 3pt shooters and two decent 3pt shooters. The second team has one knockdown 3 pt shooter, two decent ones, one guy whose range only extends to about 20 feet (but is still very good at that range), and one guy whose range is basically capped at 12-15 feet. I still think the second team beats the first in a 7 game series with modern rules, assuming they have some good floor spacers on their bench, and that isn't even factoring in the grading "curve" I mentioned in the first paragraph. If you assume that Payton would be a tad better at 3 point shooting if he grew up in the 2000s and KG would have worked to extend his range a few more feet, then I think it is a no brainer that the second team wins.
User avatar
LamarMatic7
Hornets Forum High-End Journalist
Posts: 9,792
And1: 2,381
Joined: Jan 02, 2011
Location: Latvia
Contact:
   

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#15 » by LamarMatic7 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:09 am

fatlever wrote:@Lamar - I feel like we've used that 76-77 cut-off for several years and maybe have ignored some quality early 70s guys. What if we did a 70-90 draft? NBA only. It would fall into your range of similar styles, for the most part. What would be the downside of adding 70-76?

70-76 is just so damn flukey. It will inevitably create discussions where no one on this board knows the real answer. Take someone like Bob Kauffman, per example:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kauffbo01.html

It's quite tempting to take him as a guy who averaged 20-10 for three years. Others will point out that it was a diluted league, that he didn't keep it up for a longer period of time, etc. The guy with Kauffman on his team will fire back with some sort of evidence that he was unfairly kept from stretching out his prime years. And it will go on...

I just think that for a draft where we already had problems determining the right way of coming up with a winner, 70-76 will create even more problems.

But, hey, I love debating so if we include 70-76 as well, 70-76 it is.
Image
User avatar
LamarMatic7
Hornets Forum High-End Journalist
Posts: 9,792
And1: 2,381
Joined: Jan 02, 2011
Location: Latvia
Contact:
   

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#16 » by LamarMatic7 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:16 am

Braggins wrote:For athleticism, we basically do the same thing. Assume the farther back we go the more handicapped players were athletically and judge them more relative to their era. I think the difference in athleticism gets a bit exaggerrated anyways, so it wouldnt take a whole lot of extrapolation there. Wed probably need to do something similar for dribbling, since ball handling was more restricted by the rules in the older era.


I get your points and I think that you brought up some nice ideas.

The only thing I wanted to added and quote is this particular part. Teams being compared against one another is where we hit some trouble. Was it a Moses vs. David Robinson debate last draft? I think there was one.. What do we do with those kinds of discussions? Because obviously Moses didn't have to deal with anyone of Robinson's type in the late 70s. But the guy with The Admiral on the team will just claim that he has the more contemporary guy and that the older opponent doesn't have any chance of holding up because of basketball's evolution that made Robinson a more complete player.

(The funny part is that obviously such a match-up could occur in my proposal. But I moreso brought it up to provide an example so you would catch my drift. Imagine Paul Arizin vs. LeBron if you want to get the more extreme matchup.)
Image
Braggins
RealGM
Posts: 14,479
And1: 9,275
Joined: Jan 05, 2014

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#17 » by Braggins » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:31 am

LamarMatic7 wrote:
Braggins wrote:For athleticism, we basically do the same thing. Assume the farther back we go the more handicapped players were athletically and judge them more relative to their era. I think the difference in athleticism gets a bit exaggerrated anyways, so it wouldnt take a whole lot of extrapolation there. Wed probably need to do something similar for dribbling, since ball handling was more restricted by the rules in the older era.


I get your points and I think that you brought up some nice ideas.

The only thing I wanted to added and quote is this particular part. Teams being compared against one another is where we hit some trouble. Was it a Moses vs. David Robinson debate last draft? I think there was one.. What do we do with those kinds of discussions? Because obviously Moses didn't have to deal with anyone of Robinson's type in the late 70s. But the guy with The Admiral on the team will just claim that he has the more contemporary guy and that the older opponent doesn't have any chance of holding up because of basketball's evolution that made Robinson a more complete player.

(The funny part is that obviously such a match-up could occur in my proposal. But I moreso brought it up to provide an example so you would catch my drift. Imagine Paul Arizin vs. LeBron if you want to get the more extreme matchup.)

Robinson vs Malone is such a fascinating comparison. There is a great thread in the PC board about it too. I think they are fairly even all things considered. Robinson is more contemporary and well rounded, but Malones extreme offensive rebounding prowess and ability to literally pound teams into submission closes that gap imo. I think you could make a decent case for either one and my preference would honestly be based a lot on the context of the team I was trying to fit them on.

I feel like comparisons are going to be tricky no matter what we do and I personally wouldn't want to give the older players too much of a benefit of the doubt, to the point where we are basically downplaying the superiority of certain skills that modern players have over the older guys, but we might be able to reasonably bridge the gap a bit. Like, I'm not going to assume Jerry West would be launching 25 footers like Curry had he grown up in the modern era, but I think we can at least assume he'd be a good 3 point shooter. It might be tricky to extrapolate things this way without potentially overrating or underrating guys and it would probably entail more discussion than we had for the last draft, but it might be doable.

I don't think I actually answered your overall question, like at all lol, but its really hard to, honestly.
User avatar
LamarMatic7
Hornets Forum High-End Journalist
Posts: 9,792
And1: 2,381
Joined: Jan 02, 2011
Location: Latvia
Contact:
   

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#18 » by LamarMatic7 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:34 am

Braggins wrote:
LamarMatic7 wrote:
Braggins wrote:For athleticism, we basically do the same thing. Assume the farther back we go the more handicapped players were athletically and judge them more relative to their era. I think the difference in athleticism gets a bit exaggerrated anyways, so it wouldnt take a whole lot of extrapolation there. Wed probably need to do something similar for dribbling, since ball handling was more restricted by the rules in the older era.


I get your points and I think that you brought up some nice ideas.

The only thing I wanted to added and quote is this particular part. Teams being compared against one another is where we hit some trouble. Was it a Moses vs. David Robinson debate last draft? I think there was one.. What do we do with those kinds of discussions? Because obviously Moses didn't have to deal with anyone of Robinson's type in the late 70s. But the guy with The Admiral on the team will just claim that he has the more contemporary guy and that the older opponent doesn't have any chance of holding up because of basketball's evolution that made Robinson a more complete player.

(The funny part is that obviously such a match-up could occur in my proposal. But I moreso brought it up to provide an example so you would catch my drift. Imagine Paul Arizin vs. LeBron if you want to get the more extreme matchup.)

Robinson vs Malone is such a fascinating comparison. There is a great thread in the PC board about it too. I think they are fairly even all things considered. Robinson is more contemporary and well rounded, but Malones extreme offensive rebounding prowess and ability to literally pound teams into submission closes that gap imo. I think you could make a decent case for either one and my preference would honestly be based a lot on the context of the team I was trying to fit them on.

I feel like comparisons are going to be tricky no matter what we do and I personally wouldn't want to give the older players too much of a benefit of the doubt, to the point where we are basically downplaying the superiority of certain skills that modern players have over the older guys, but we might be able to reasonably bridge the gap a bit. Like, I'm not going to assume Jerry West would be launching 25 footers like Curry had he grown up in the modern era, but I think we can at least assume he'd be a good 3 point shooter.

I don't think I actually answered your overall question, like at all lol, but its really hard to, honestly.


The West - Curry comparison is why I want to focus in on a more particular period in NBA history. It's just way too hard to compare players that had a half of century in between their playing days.
Image
Braggins
RealGM
Posts: 14,479
And1: 9,275
Joined: Jan 05, 2014

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#19 » by Braggins » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:47 am

LamarMatic7 wrote:
Braggins wrote:
LamarMatic7 wrote:
I get your points and I think that you brought up some nice ideas.

The only thing I wanted to added and quote is this particular part. Teams being compared against one another is where we hit some trouble. Was it a Moses vs. David Robinson debate last draft? I think there was one.. What do we do with those kinds of discussions? Because obviously Moses didn't have to deal with anyone of Robinson's type in the late 70s. But the guy with The Admiral on the team will just claim that he has the more contemporary guy and that the older opponent doesn't have any chance of holding up because of basketball's evolution that made Robinson a more complete player.

(The funny part is that obviously such a match-up could occur in my proposal. But I moreso brought it up to provide an example so you would catch my drift. Imagine Paul Arizin vs. LeBron if you want to get the more extreme matchup.)

Robinson vs Malone is such a fascinating comparison. There is a great thread in the PC board about it too. I think they are fairly even all things considered. Robinson is more contemporary and well rounded, but Malones extreme offensive rebounding prowess and ability to literally pound teams into submission closes that gap imo. I think you could make a decent case for either one and my preference would honestly be based a lot on the context of the team I was trying to fit them on.

I feel like comparisons are going to be tricky no matter what we do and I personally wouldn't want to give the older players too much of a benefit of the doubt, to the point where we are basically downplaying the superiority of certain skills that modern players have over the older guys, but we might be able to reasonably bridge the gap a bit. Like, I'm not going to assume Jerry West would be launching 25 footers like Curry had he grown up in the modern era, but I think we can at least assume he'd be a good 3 point shooter.

I don't think I actually answered your overall question, like at all lol, but its really hard to, honestly.


The West - Curry comparison is why I want to focus in on a more particular period in NBA history. It's just way too hard to compare players that had a half of century in between their playing days.

I ninja edit'ed my last post, but I don't think it changes anything.

I definitely get where you are coming from. Doing it that way makes comparison much more accurate and less subjective, but it would really lessen the team building experience for me personally. I don't think its all that difficult to tell which players from the older eras would translate to the modern game, but looking at things that way definitely opens a can of worms that causes a lot of possible gray areas where there could be disagreement that couldn't really be resolved.

I say all this as someone who wants to build my team around someone drafted in 1959 lol. Id be into going back farther than even the 1970 cutoff so I could draft pre knee surgery Wilt! I'm trying to have the best of both worlds :D. I prefer the modern game, but I also want the older eras to be well represented. I think a lot of the stars even from the 60s would have a place in todays game and some of them would still be great imo. I guess I just don't really mind all the potential ambiguity and not having a clear consensus on who the winner is.
User avatar
fatlever
Senior Mod - Hornets
Senior Mod - Hornets
Posts: 58,934
And1: 15,520
Joined: Jun 04, 2001
Location: Terrapin Station
     

Re: Mid-Season Scavenger Hunt Draft? 

Post#20 » by fatlever » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:00 pm

Since we just did at 76-16 draft this summer, I definitely want to do a different time range, something with a more narrow date range, in order to make people dig for some obscure dudes.

How about you guys vote for your preference from these ranges

76-92
70-89 (NBA/ABA or NBA only)
00s
90s
80s
70s (NBA/ABA)
ABA only
60s

Return to Charlotte Hornets