Moderators: Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake, bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285
jangles86 wrote:John Wall will have to be considered if Wizards continue this pace and finish 2nd in the east.
bondom34 wrote:michaelm wrote:bondom34 wrote:Because he has no narrative for him. They're massive title favorites expected to run over the league, they're doing that. He's not winning it, zero chance.
Sure, I don't think he would get MVP even if GSW won 76 games for exactly that reason, but misinterpreted your argument as being that GSW would need to win 74 for KD to deserve the award because GSW won 73 last year; whether or not he could possibly deserve the award was a question I thought, perhaps wrongly, had been raised by a previous poster. I think it is quite likely he will be the best regular season player in the NBA this season, rather than that he will be given the actual MVP award.
To be honest, I'm not sure. I wouldn't say he deserves it either way, as what he's doing isn't more valuable than what others are.
michaelm wrote:bondom34 wrote:michaelm wrote:Sure, I don't think he would get MVP even if GSW won 76 games for exactly that reason, but misinterpreted your argument as being that GSW would need to win 74 for KD to deserve the award because GSW won 73 last year; whether or not he could possibly deserve the award was a question I thought, perhaps wrongly, had been raised by a previous poster. I think it is quite likely he will be the best regular season player in the NBA this season, rather than that he will be given the actual MVP award.
To be honest, I'm not sure. I wouldn't say he deserves it either way, as what he's doing isn't more valuable than what others are.
In which case the likes of Giannis or Embiid should be more prominent in discussions.
I don't really care who gets it to be honest, historically it has not infrequently gone to neither the best player nor the biggest difference maker, but would have no problem with Harden or Westbrook being given the award should they continue their form thus far this season.
MyUniBroDavis wrote: he was like YALL PEOPLE WHO DOUBT ME WILL SEE YALLS STATS ARE WRONG I HAVE THE BIG BRAIN PLAYS MUCHO NASTY BIG BRAIN BIG CHUNGUS BRAIN YOU BOYS ON UR BBALL REFERENCE NO UNDERSTANDO
Ballerhogger wrote:K_chile22 wrote:Ballerhogger wrote:Too add this harden not doing any favors for himself right now. 17 pts. .. not enough for mvp. These big match ups always play factor into these awards.
Yes, I'm sure the voters will go 'remember that time Harden scored an efficient 17, with 11 assists agaisnt a vastly better team in the middle of January? Definitely not MVP'
This was shalacking it wasn't even close. So yes they will remember these types of games. We will see where rockets end up and Harden performance and KD performances winds up being after the ASB.
inquisitive wrote:Kawhi keeps this up and he is in the thick of things, but the MVP is RW's to lose. I just don't see these voters voting for KD because he went to the best team. His stats certainly is deserving of the MVP, but i can only see the west coast sportswriters voting for him only. I could be wrong, but if you listen to the national media, i don't hear anyone talking about KD as being considered for MVP. You only hear mostly of RW and a bit of Harden and LBJ.
laika wrote:A funny thing is happening on the way to the MVP coronation. Curry has zero chance to win but he is
still clearly the MVP according to the most important stat out there.
If a player has only the best On/Off then you can argue that a player with a better Oncourt is leading their team more despite having a better bench. If a player has only the best Oncourt then you can argue that the better On/Off player is more important to their team. But if a player has the best Oncourt and On/Off then it gets really difficult to argue that they aren't the actual MVP.
Curry crushes every non-Warrior in Oncourt. Durant has decent numbers until you adjust for the fact that Curry is making his numbers look good and is clearly the most valuable Warrior. James and Westbrook are sort of close if you want to only look at On/Off. Harden and Leonard aren't even in the discussion no matter how you interpret things.
-----------------On----Off----On/Off
Curry---------18.2--+0.6----17.6
big gap
Westbrook----5.5--11.2---16.7
James----------9.2---6.1----15.3
Durant-------16.4--+4.1----12.3
big gap
Harden--------8.2--+3.4-----4.8
Leonard-------8.9--+8.2-----0.7
RaptorsLife wrote:Warriors are 25-3 in the games decided by 10+ if curry sits out the 4th during a blowout and the other team makes a fake run. It's makes step curry off court stats look better. Using that to determine the mvp and saying it's the most important stat makes little sense
laika wrote:RaptorsLife wrote:Warriors are 25-3 in the games decided by 10+ if curry sits out the 4th during a blowout and the other team makes a fake run. It's makes step curry off court stats look better. Using that to determine the mvp and saying it's the most important stat makes little sense
You are using a logically invalid argument. Pointing out a minor objection does not mean that the whole argument makes little sense.
Curry is well ahead using my method. Even if we make your adjustment to his offcourt rating(ignoring that other teams have blowouts also) then Curry would still be leading.
No, Curry hasn't been as good as last year. But last year he had a historically great year and was by far the MVP. This year Curry is still the most valuable player despite the gap closing.
People refuse to believe it, but the "superteam" Warriors really do collapse when Curry is on the bench. And they don't use a platoon system like the Clippers so Curry's great On/Off is a reflection of his real value.
RaptorsLife wrote:laika wrote:RaptorsLife wrote:Warriors are 25-3 in the games decided by 10+ if curry sits out the 4th during a blowout and the other team makes a fake run. It's makes step curry off court stats look better. Using that to determine the mvp and saying it's the most important stat makes little sense
You are using a logically invalid argument. Pointing out a minor objection does not mean that the whole argument makes little sense.
Curry is well ahead using my method. Even if we make your adjustment to his offcourt rating(ignoring that other teams have blowouts also) then Curry would still be leading.
No, Curry hasn't been as good as last year. But last year he had a historically great year and was by far the MVP. This year Curry is still the most valuable player despite the gap closing.
People refuse to believe it, but the "superteam" Warriors really do collapse when Curry is on the bench. And they don't use a platoon system like the Clippers so Curry's great On/Off is a reflection of his real value.
Well let's see. I doubt you can win mvp when you aren't even the best player on your team. Harden Is the clear frontrunner
How much success did Curry have before Kerr's system? What about Jordan before Phil's system? What did Kobe do without Phil? Look at the Spurs right now, still elite without Duncan or Robinson, is it all because of Pop? MDA's system hasn't worked since PHX, not until now. Using a system to discredit Harden's success, but not others is very hypocritical.laika wrote:RaptorsLife wrote:laika wrote:
You are using a logically invalid argument. Pointing out a minor objection does not mean that the whole argument makes little sense.
Curry is well ahead using my method. Even if we make your adjustment to his offcourt rating(ignoring that other teams have blowouts also) then Curry would still be leading.
No, Curry hasn't been as good as last year. But last year he had a historically great year and was by far the MVP. This year Curry is still the most valuable player despite the gap closing.
People refuse to believe it, but the "superteam" Warriors really do collapse when Curry is on the bench. And they don't use a platoon system like the Clippers so Curry's great On/Off is a reflection of his real value.
Well let's see. I doubt you can win mvp when you aren't even the best player on your team. Harden Is the clear frontrunner
Curry is definitely the best player on his team if you define best as "helps win". I'll agree that Harden is quite likely to win but he isn't the most deserving. Harden is a much greater beneficiary of Houston's system than people think.
red96 wrote:How much success did Curry have before Kerr's system? What about Jordan before Phil's system? What did Kobe do without Phil? Look at the Spurs right now, still elite without Duncan or Robinson, was it all because of Pop? MDA's system hasn't worked since PHX, not until now. Using a system to discredit Harden's success, but not others is very hypocritical.laika wrote:RaptorsLife wrote:Well let's see. I doubt you can win mvp when you aren't even the best player on your team. Harden Is the clear frontrunner
Curry is definitely the best player on his team if you define best as "helps win". I'll agree that Harden is quite likely to win but he isn't the most deserving. Harden is a much greater beneficiary of Houston's system than people think.
RaptorsLife wrote:laika wrote:A funny thing is happening on the way to the MVP coronation. Curry has zero chance to win but he is
still clearly the MVP according to the most important stat out there.
If a player has only the best On/Off then you can argue that a player with a better Oncourt is leading their team more despite having a better bench. If a player has only the best Oncourt then you can argue that the better On/Off player is more important to their team. But if a player has the best Oncourt and On/Off then it gets really difficult to argue that they aren't the actual MVP.
Curry crushes every non-Warrior in Oncourt. Durant has decent numbers until you adjust for the fact that Curry is making his numbers look good and is clearly the most valuable Warrior. James and Westbrook are sort of close if you want to only look at On/Off. Harden and Leonard aren't even in the discussion no matter how you interpret things.
-----------------On----Off----On/Off
Curry---------18.2--+0.6----17.6
big gap
Westbrook----5.5--11.2---16.7
James----------9.2---6.1----15.3
Durant-------16.4--+4.1----12.3
big gap
Harden--------8.2--+3.4-----4.8
Leonard-------8.9--+8.2-----0.7
Warriors are 25-3 in the games decided by 10+ if curry sits out the 4th during a blowout and the other team makes a fake run. It's makes step curry off court stats look better. Using that to determine the mvp and saying it's the most important stat makes little sense
When you say Houston's system, are you refering to MDA or Morey? If you're speaking on DAntoni's system, Harden played at a star level and had an MVP season before him. If you're refering to Morey's Philosophy, Harden was a rising star before he was a Rocket and much of the league has adopted that philosophy. Morey recognized the potential of the just made 22 year old and traded for him on Oct. 27. On Oct.31 before any practice with his new team and in his 1st game he went for 37,12,6,with 4stl, 1 blk. Harden isn't just a product of the system and Morey's system doesn't make Harden a star. In the system who was the Harden before Harden? Harden practiced and developed his craftiness, footwork, vision, and shooting without MDA and Morey and wouldve been a star anywhere, same as Curry, KD, Westbrook, Kobe, ect. Anyone whose watched the Rockets before and after Harden's arrival recognizes his monumental importance to the Franchise's success. Les Alexander and Morey must believe in his importance, they where among the individuals who spearheaded for the new super-max extension when they already had Harden locked into a deal.laika wrote:red96 wrote:How much success did Curry have before Kerr's system? What about Jordan before Phil's system? What did Kobe do without Phil? Look at the Spurs right now, still elite without Duncan or Robinson, was it all because of Pop? MDA's system hasn't worked since PHX, not until now. Using a system to discredit Harden's success, but not others is very hypocritical.laika wrote:
Curry is definitely the best player on his team if you define best as "helps win". I'll agree that Harden is quite likely to win but he isn't the most deserving. Harden is a much greater beneficiary of Houston's system than people think.
Every player on a good team has decent support. It's not that they don't have a system, but that Houston's success is much less dependent on Harden than it is for the stars on those other teams(except the Spurs). To make it less confusing I should have said "supporting cast" rather than system.
To an extent much greater than people acknowledge, Curry is the Warrior system. Not once ever have the Warriors been good without Curry. On a related note, Curry had an MVP level year the year before Kerr arrived but no one noticed because the rest of the Warriors were too lousy.