2nd best player in the nba

[FNQ]

Hard time choosing between Harden and Westbrook. I love Hardens offensive abilities and I love Westbrook motor.

I know one thing, Durant is not 2 or 3.

26.3 - 8.5 - 4.7 - 1.2 - 1.7
on 54% FG, 39% 3pt, 65.6% TS

Playing great defense, and is setting new career highs in TS, rebounding, blocked shots, and turnover % (career low 10%) while being able to play every position for us but center.

This isn't a MVP vote where counting stats are the end-all be-all. Who goes #2 if the actual NBA had a fantasy draft to re-tool rosters? The votes reflect the truth, whether or not people like him for joining the W's - it's Durant, the 7'0 sharpshooter who is playing excellent defense.

[Infinite Llamas]

Also Spurs are better with Kawhi off than on overall.

You may have just been responsible for the most laughable comment in RealGM history.

Sounds like one of those trendy "alternative facts" if you ask me

[FNQ]

If im rating my top 5 im going

1. Lebron
2. KD
3. Kawhi
4. Curry
5. Harden

I'm pretty close to this

1 LeBron
2 KD
3 AD
4 Giannis
5 Kawhi
6 Russ

I value 3 things a ton: the ability to create shots for others, the ability to play multiple positions on both sides of the court (versatility), and the ability to be an impact defender. I think my top 6 hit all 3 of these markers fairly well. Guys like Draymond who also do those things well but not at the same level and guys like Harden who hit 2 out of 3 very strongly would be on my next tier along with PG13, Lowry, Curry, Cousins and I'm sure others that are escaping me right now

[PKABOOICU]

All my hate aside, its KD.

[bondom34]

Russ
Harden
KD
probably CP or Giannis, but CP's injured.

[Duke4life831]

If im rating my top 5 im going

1. Lebron
2. KD
3. Kawhi
4. Curry
5. Harden

I'm pretty close to this

1 LeBron
2 KD
3 AD
4 Giannis
5 Kawhi
6 Russ

I value 3 things a ton: the ability to create shots for others, the ability to play multiple positions on both sides of the court (versatility), and the ability to be an impact defender. I think my top 6 hit all 3 of these markers fairly well. Guys like Draymond who also do those things well but not at the same level and guys like Harden who hit 2 out of 3 very strongly would be on my next tier along with PG13, Lowry, Curry, Cousins and I'm sure others that are escaping me right now

I just dont see Russ as an impact defender and actually think Harden has outplayed him on that side of the ball this year. AD and Giannis are freak talents, just waiting for them to actually be on a winning team and make an impact in meaningful games, thats the only reason I dont have them up there yet. I still have Curry up there because I think his defense is just as good as Russ and Harden but still scarier on offense. He just hasnt really had to be Curry this year with KD there. I think Curry would be putting up some ridiculous scoring numbers if he had Westbrooks USG.

[MaxRider]

I am lazy to check the numbers, so let's use these from the MVP thread showing the impact of a player on the court - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1482190&start=1820#p51686023

-----------------On----Off----On/Off
Curry---------18.2--+0.6----17.6

big gap

Westbrook----5.5--11.2---16.7
James----------9.2---6.1----15.3
Durant-------16.4--+4.1----12.3

big gap

Harden--------8.2--+3.4-----4.8
Leonard-------8.9--+8.2-----0.7

Do we have stat for Curry+Durant on/off, Curry+No Durant on/off, No Curry+Durant on/off?

[whocurrz]

There's no way I can get myself to vote for Durant over Harden or Westbrook given the guys he's surrounded by.

Harden and Westbrook are shouldering the offense on a nightly basis and more often than not anything but a good to great outing bogs down their teams considerably.

Heck, I'd rate Durant even behind Leonard, to me it's Lebron first, followed by Harden, Westbrook and Leonard.

Durant was better than Westbrook every season they played together so if anything their current situations are inflating RW's value.

Durant has also proven to be an elite defender this season, he had RW and JH beat on that side of the ball too.

You can certainly make that argument, but I don't recall a situation where Durant ever carried the Thunder when Westbrook was out the way Westbrook pushed that team when Durant missed time.

Did you miss the 2013-14 season? KD's MVP season he led the Thunder to the best record in the league when Westbrook missed 36 games.

The roster was better for KD when Russ was out than it was for Russ when KD was out, but KD carried that team to the best record while Russ kept them competitive not great.

[FNQ]

I am lazy to check the numbers, so let's use these from the MVP thread showing the impact of a player on the court - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1482190&start=1820#p51686023

-----------------On----Off----On/Off
Curry---------18.2--+0.6----17.6

big gap

Westbrook----5.5--11.2---16.7
James----------9.2---6.1----15.3
Durant-------16.4--+4.1----12.3

big gap

Harden--------8.2--+3.4-----4.8
Leonard-------8.9--+8.2-----0.7

Do we have stat for Curry+Durant on/off, Curry+No Durant on/off, No Curry+Durant on/off?

nbawowy.com (wowy stands for with or without you) allows you to see stats with certain players on and certain players off. A great tool for these kinds of discussions

[FNQ]

If im rating my top 5 im going

1. Lebron
2. KD
3. Kawhi
4. Curry
5. Harden

I'm pretty close to this

1 LeBron
2 KD
3 AD
4 Giannis
5 Kawhi
6 Russ

I value 3 things a ton: the ability to create shots for others, the ability to play multiple positions on both sides of the court (versatility), and the ability to be an impact defender. I think my top 6 hit all 3 of these markers fairly well. Guys like Draymond who also do those things well but not at the same level and guys like Harden who hit 2 out of 3 very strongly would be on my next tier along with PG13, Lowry, Curry, Cousins and I'm sure others that are escaping me right now

I just dont see Russ as an impact defender and actually think Harden has outplayed him on that side of the ball this year. AD and Giannis are freak talents, just waiting for them to actually be on a winning team and make an impact in meaningful games, thats the only reason I dont have them up there yet. I still have Curry up there because I think his defense is just as good as Russ and Harden but still scarier on offense. He just hasnt really had to be Curry this year with KD there. I think Curry would be putting up some ridiculous scoring numbers if he had Westbrooks USG.

Its hard to be really accurate with these because we mostly go off of public opinion unless its about our own team.. if Harden and Curry are on Russ' levels as defenders then Russ simply needs to step up big time, because he has the tools to be much, much better than those guys.

I agree that Curry has scaled himself back this year due to our talent, and he probably could put up just as gaudy #s as Harden or Russ if in their situations, but his rebounding and defense are the two things that keep me from putting him in my top 5. Thats not to say he's bad at both, but I feel that out of my top 5, not a single one isn't an impact defender and impact offensive player too. If Russ isn't impacting defense as well these days, then he would belong in the same tier as the other guys I listed initially

[The_Hater]

Durant was better than Westbrook every season they played together so if anything their current situations are inflating RW's value.

Durant has also proven to be an elite defender this season, he had RW and JH beat on that side of the ball too.

You can certainly make that argument, but I don't recall a situation where Durant ever carried the Thunder when Westbrook was out the way Westbrook pushed that team when Durant missed time.

Did you miss the 2013-14 season? KD's MVP season he led the Thunder to the best record in the league when Westbrook missed 36 games.

The roster was better for KD when Russ was out than it was for Russ when KD was out, but KD carried that team to the best record while Russ kept them competitive not great.

Don't forget that the following season when KD was out for half the year Westbrook led OKC to the lottery.

[Duke4life831]

I'm pretty close to this

1 LeBron
2 KD
3 AD
4 Giannis
5 Kawhi
6 Russ

I value 3 things a ton: the ability to create shots for others, the ability to play multiple positions on both sides of the court (versatility), and the ability to be an impact defender. I think my top 6 hit all 3 of these markers fairly well. Guys like Draymond who also do those things well but not at the same level and guys like Harden who hit 2 out of 3 very strongly would be on my next tier along with PG13, Lowry, Curry, Cousins and I'm sure others that are escaping me right now

I just dont see Russ as an impact defender and actually think Harden has outplayed him on that side of the ball this year. AD and Giannis are freak talents, just waiting for them to actually be on a winning team and make an impact in meaningful games, thats the only reason I dont have them up there yet. I still have Curry up there because I think his defense is just as good as Russ and Harden but still scarier on offense. He just hasnt really had to be Curry this year with KD there. I think Curry would be putting up some ridiculous scoring numbers if he had Westbrooks USG.

Its hard to be really accurate with these because we mostly go off of public opinion unless its about our own team.. if Harden and Curry are on Russ' levels as defenders then Russ simply needs to step up big time, because he has the tools to be much, much better than those guys.

I agree that Curry has scaled himself back this year due to our talent, and he probably could put up just as gaudy #s as Harden or Russ if in their situations, but his rebounding and defense are the two things that keep me from putting him in my top 5. Thats not to say he's bad at both, but I feel that out of my top 5, not a single one isn't an impact defender and impact offensive player too. If Russ isn't impacting defense as well these days, then he would belong in the same tier as the other guys I listed initially

Westbrook definitely has the highest peak defensive ability out of them. I just dont think he brings it consistently at all. I mean I dont blame him look at the work load he carries on offense. But no I dont see an impact defender with Russ.

[PeptoKlepto]

I'm pretty close to this

1 LeBron
2 KD
3 AD
4 Giannis
5 Kawhi
6 Russ

I value 3 things a ton: the ability to create shots for others, the ability to play multiple positions on both sides of the court (versatility), and the ability to be an impact defender. I think my top 6 hit all 3 of these markers fairly well. Guys like Draymond who also do those things well but not at the same level and guys like Harden who hit 2 out of 3 very strongly would be on my next tier along with PG13, Lowry, Curry, Cousins and I'm sure others that are escaping me right now

I just dont see Russ as an impact defender and actually think Harden has outplayed him on that side of the ball this year. AD and Giannis are freak talents, just waiting for them to actually be on a winning team and make an impact in meaningful games, thats the only reason I dont have them up there yet. I still have Curry up there because I think his defense is just as good as Russ and Harden but still scarier on offense. He just hasnt really had to be Curry this year with KD there. I think Curry would be putting up some ridiculous scoring numbers if he had Westbrooks USG.

Its hard to be really accurate with these because we mostly go off of public opinion unless its about our own team.. if Harden and Curry are on Russ' levels as defenders then Russ simply needs to step up big time, because he has the tools to be much, much better than those guys.

I agree that Curry has scaled himself back this year due to our talent, and he probably could put up just as gaudy #s as Harden or Russ if in their situations, but his rebounding and defense are the two things that keep me from putting him in my top 5. Thats not to say he's bad at both, but I feel that out of my top 5, not a single one isn't an impact defender and impact offensive player too. If Russ isn't impacting defense as well these days, then he would belong in the same tier as the other guys I listed initially

What kinda of rebounding rate do you expect Curry to put up? He's rebounding better than our 6'7 off guard.

[FNQ]

I just dont see Russ as an impact defender and actually think Harden has outplayed him on that side of the ball this year. AD and Giannis are freak talents, just waiting for them to actually be on a winning team and make an impact in meaningful games, thats the only reason I dont have them up there yet. I still have Curry up there because I think his defense is just as good as Russ and Harden but still scarier on offense. He just hasnt really had to be Curry this year with KD there. I think Curry would be putting up some ridiculous scoring numbers if he had Westbrooks USG.

Its hard to be really accurate with these because we mostly go off of public opinion unless its about our own team.. if Harden and Curry are on Russ' levels as defenders then Russ simply needs to step up big time, because he has the tools to be much, much better than those guys.

I agree that Curry has scaled himself back this year due to our talent, and he probably could put up just as gaudy #s as Harden or Russ if in their situations, but his rebounding and defense are the two things that keep me from putting him in my top 5. Thats not to say he's bad at both, but I feel that out of my top 5, not a single one isn't an impact defender and impact offensive player too. If Russ isn't impacting defense as well these days, then he would belong in the same tier as the other guys I listed initially

What kinda of rebounding rate do you expect Curry to put up? He's rebounding better than our 6'7 off guard.

Our 6'7 off guard is on the fly to try and fast break.. it's very rare to see Curry streaking on a fast break, he usually runs towards the ball. This has been done to death on the W's forum.

Curry isn't the same caliber rebounder as the elite rebounding guards, which Westbrook and Harden both are. When comparing the 3, that becomes relevant

[Bergmaniac]

Durant was better than Westbrook every season they played together so if anything their current situations are inflating RW's value.

Durant has also proven to be an elite defender this season, he had RW and JH beat on that side of the ball too.

You can certainly make that argument, but I don't recall a situation where Durant ever carried the Thunder when Westbrook was out the way Westbrook pushed that team when Durant missed time.

Did you miss the 2013-14 season? KD's MVP season he led the Thunder to the best record in the league when Westbrook missed 36 games.

The roster was better for KD when Russ was out than it was for Russ when KD was out, but KD carried that team to the best record while Russ kept them competitive not great.

Second best record actually. And Westbrook missed 16 games the year Durant missed most of the season.

[whocurrz]

You can certainly make that argument, but I don't recall a situation where Durant ever carried the Thunder when Westbrook was out the way Westbrook pushed that team when Durant missed time.

Did you miss the 2013-14 season? KD's MVP season he led the Thunder to the best record in the league when Westbrook missed 36 games.

The roster was better for KD when Russ was out than it was for Russ when KD was out, but KD carried that team to the best record while Russ kept them competitive not great.

Don't forget that the following season when KD was out for half the year Westbrook led OKC to the lottery.

To be fair Westbrook missed some time that season too and Reggie Jackson was more of a distraction than he was an asset like he was replacing Russ. Plus Ibaka missed some time too IIRC.

Russ played well but that Thunder team without KD was around .500 and didn't have very many impressive wins.

I don't want to hate on Russ though as he is an amazing player but moreso respond to the poster saying KD never showed he could carry a team without Russ

[Hoopz Afrik]

Kevin Durant for sure. If not for LeBron, KD would have no competition for the top spot....and his defense has always been severely underrated.

[sackings916]

1. Bron
2. KD
3. Curry
4. Harden
5. Westbrook
6. Kawhi
7. CP3
8. AD
9. Cousins
10. Giannis

[Duke4life831]

I just dont see Russ as an impact defender and actually think Harden has outplayed him on that side of the ball this year. AD and Giannis are freak talents, just waiting for them to actually be on a winning team and make an impact in meaningful games, thats the only reason I dont have them up there yet. I still have Curry up there because I think his defense is just as good as Russ and Harden but still scarier on offense. He just hasnt really had to be Curry this year with KD there. I think Curry would be putting up some ridiculous scoring numbers if he had Westbrooks USG.

Its hard to be really accurate with these because we mostly go off of public opinion unless its about our own team.. if Harden and Curry are on Russ' levels as defenders then Russ simply needs to step up big time, because he has the tools to be much, much better than those guys.

I agree that Curry has scaled himself back this year due to our talent, and he probably could put up just as gaudy #s as Harden or Russ if in their situations, but his rebounding and defense are the two things that keep me from putting him in my top 5. Thats not to say he's bad at both, but I feel that out of my top 5, not a single one isn't an impact defender and impact offensive player too. If Russ isn't impacting defense as well these days, then he would belong in the same tier as the other guys I listed initially

What kinda of rebounding rate do you expect Curry to put up? He's rebounding better than our 6'7 off guard.

Nothing spectacular. I think for his body and lack of athleticism I think 4-5 boards is fine. But I really cant care less though about how well guards rebound. I think the impact is close to 0. I honestly dont think OKC would be any worse of a team if Westbrook was grabbing 5 boards a game. There is at least 3-5 easy free boards Westbrook grabs a game that his bigs just let him grab. Im not saying Westbrook is stat padding or anything, thats just what the bigs do, theyre giving him easy boards.

So if Klay was grabbing 2 boards a game im fine with that, I just dont care how many boards 1s and 2s are grabbing espcially in our offense when Klay is always on the perimeter offensively and defensively he is out running every shot. 3-5 though is a different story and that is one of the reasons I think KD is making a great impact for us, his rebounding and defense are huge upgrades over Barnes.

[PeptoKlepto]

Its hard to be really accurate with these because we mostly go off of public opinion unless its about our own team.. if Harden and Curry are on Russ' levels as defenders then Russ simply needs to step up big time, because he has the tools to be much, much better than those guys.

I agree that Curry has scaled himself back this year due to our talent, and he probably could put up just as gaudy #s as Harden or Russ if in their situations, but his rebounding and defense are the two things that keep me from putting him in my top 5. Thats not to say he's bad at both, but I feel that out of my top 5, not a single one isn't an impact defender and impact offensive player too. If Russ isn't impacting defense as well these days, then he would belong in the same tier as the other guys I listed initially

What kinda of rebounding rate do you expect Curry to put up? He's rebounding better than our 6'7 off guard.

Our 6'7 off guard is on the fly to try and fast break.. it's very rare to see Curry streaking on a fast break, he usually runs towards the ball. This has been done to death on the W's forum.

Curry isn't the same caliber rebounder as the elite rebounding guards, which Westbrook and Harden both are. When comparing the 3, that becomes relevant

Don't really care what's been argued on the W's forum or not. That has nothing to do w/ me and my discussion with you.

And it's not really all that relevant. Rebounding is really the last thing you should look for when you're discussing PGs honestly, and Curry is a better defender and team defender than both Harden and Westbrook, so there's that.