2nd best player in the nba

[jc23]

my pick is kd even though he has choked in the playoffs a bit too much for my liking of a top 2 player.

[FNQ]

I think there is a strong argument for Durant being the 2nd best player in the NBA. I really do.

But are we really questioning who is more valuable to the Warriors between Curry and Durant, when the Warriors won 73 games last year without one of those guys? It's a no brainer.

Bit of reductive reasoning there? There's no way to know if you swap out Curry and Barnes for Durant and a Barnes-level replacement PG with that roster whether or not they'd win 73 games.

Straight line thinking like that doesn't work for these types of things. For example, W"s won 73 games last year, more than any team in NBA history. Thus they are the best team in NBA history. Yet they lost in the Finals to the Cavs, so the Cavs are the best team in NBA history. But they didn't win 73 games in a season. Feedback loop, forever.

Or equally good: The Warriors were 3-4 against the Cavs in the playoffs when Curry played. The Warriors were 3-3 against the Cavs in the playoffs when Draymond played. Higher win % goes to Draymond, thus he is the most important Warrior. Whether or not you agree with the result, the logic doesnt fly

[Patches Perry]

I think there is a strong argument for Durant being the 2nd best player in the NBA. I really do.

But are we really questioning who is more valuable to the Warriors between Curry and Durant, when the Warriors won 73 games last year without one of those guys? It's a no brainer.

Bit of reductive reasoning there? There's no way to know if you swap out Curry and Barnes for Durant and a Barnes-level replacement PG with that roster whether or not they'd win 73 games.

Straight line thinking like that doesn't work for these types of things. For example, W"s won 73 games last year, more than any team in NBA history. Thus they are the best team in NBA history. Yet they lost in the Finals to the Cavs, so the Cavs are the best team in NBA history. But they didn't win 73 games in a season. Feedback loop, forever.

Or equally good: The Warriors were 3-4 against the Cavs in the playoffs when Curry played. The Warriors were 3-3 against the Cavs in the playoffs when Draymond played. Higher win % goes to Draymond, thus he is the most important Warrior. Whether or not you agree with the result, the logic doesnt fly

You're right that there is no way to know whether Durant could the clear best player on a 73 win team, but I also wouldn't just assume that he could based on the fact that I don't know. It's not a safe assumption, because that's an extraordinary feat. Curry's accomplishment is real, and real beats hypothetical. If Kevin Garnett gets drafted to the Spurs, maybe he wins 5 titles. I don't know if that's true, but I can't credit Kevin Garnett with 5 titles simply because it's possible.

And it's certainly not just the 73 wins. It's the being the best player on a championship team the year before, winning 67 (more than Durant ever has). It's two MVPs, to Durant having one MVP 4 years ago. Curry reached a level of play individually last year that reflected in him being statistically superior to any version of Durant we've ever seen. I don't think any of these things in isolation tell the whole story, but in the aggregate, are pretty convincing.

Yes, Durant is putting up better numbers than Curry this year, but Durant is not putting up better numbers than himself in past years. Durant pretty much is what he was in OKC. Different system, being used differently, but the output is roughly the same. So the dynamic with the Warriors now with Durant being considered their best player means that either A) Curry has significantly declined since last season in actual skills/abilities, since nobody in their right mind thought Durant was better than Curry last season or B) Durant's arrival has put Curry in a situation where his abilities are no longer being fully utilized.

[BucksPackers]

All you guys picking Lebron as the best and his team just went 2-6 of the last 8????? If Lebron was the best he wouldn't lose more than 10 games with a team that has 2 other allstars on it. COME ON PEOPLE! Kahwi is the best in the league. Then second best is Curry.

[davidfr94]

Kawhi is the most overrated player in NBA for me.

Spurs without him:
2015-2016: 7-3
2016-2017: 4-0

Spurs opponents with Leonard: 108.0 ORTG
Spurs opponents without Leonard: 97.3 ORTG

Also Spurs are better with Kawhi off than on overall.

Kawhi is good, he is the perfect second option, but if you have him as a main guy you will never win a championship. He is blessed to have the GOAT coach. Spurs are good because Popovich.

You forgot he was actually the main guy they won their last championship

[bmurph128]

When having these discussions we should really only include the two way guys. So the 2nd best player would be between KD and Kawhi. Either way it's definitely not Curry.

[PeptoKlepto]

When having these discussions we should really only include the two way guys. So the 2nd best player would be between KD and Kawhi. Either way it's definitely not Curry.

Why not? What's not "two ways" about Curry?

[mihail_petkov]

Kawhi is the most overrated player in NBA for me.

Spurs without him:
2015-2016: 7-3
2016-2017: 4-0

Spurs opponents with Leonard: 108.0 ORTG
Spurs opponents without Leonard: 97.3 ORTG

Also Spurs are better with Kawhi off than on overall.

Kawhi is good, he is the perfect second option, but if you have him as a main guy you will never win a championship. He is blessed to have the GOAT coach. Spurs are good because Popovich.

You forgot he was actually the main guy they won their last championship

Main guy? Spurs won because they played amazing team ball, not because Leonard was any close to dominant main guy.

[Patches Perry]

"Two way" is arbitrary. What is the threshold on each end to be considered that? Can we not conclude Jimmy Butler is better than James Harden by the same reasoning?

[Joest2003]

First off wtf is Lowry doing up there? Lol but Leonard is a easy pick for me. Multiple defensive POY awards and a finals MVP. Not even lebron can say that. KD is a great scorer but he's not really great at anything else. I would put harden and westbrook over KD.

[PeptoKlepto]

"Two way" is arbitrary. What is the threshold on each end to be considered that? Can we not conclude Jimmy Butler is better than James Harden by the same reasoning?

Does that mean Klay Thompson is better player than Curry because he's a better "two-way" player?

[bmurph128]

When having these discussions we should really only include the two way guys. So the 2nd best player would be between KD and Kawhi. Either way it's definitely not Curry.

Why not? What's not "two ways" about Curry?

Defense.

He was taken off the court by Kerr in crunch time defensively by Kerr against the Cavs on Christmas Day - aside from him generally not being a good defender, that tells us all we need to know. Some of his defensive stats are bolstered by the Warriors playing good team defense - similar to how the Cavs defense in the finals made Irving look like a better defender than he actually is.

Due to his defensive prowess, Green is the most valuable Warrior - several Warriors fans have pointed this out as well. I'm fine with us calling Curry a better player than Green because of his supreme offensive capabilities, but not so much with calling Steph a top 5 player given that caveat. He had an amazing season but calling him the best player in the NBA last year came from a desire to see LeBron dethroned. There's no way to me that Steph is a better player than Kawhi Leonard though.

[Starboy]

Lebron is the second best player in NBA.

[Starboy]

When having these discussions we should really only include the two way guys. So the 2nd best player would be between KD and Kawhi. Either way it's definitely not Curry.

Why not? What's not "two ways" about Curry?

Defense.

He was taken off the court by Kerr in crunch time defensively by Kerr against the Cavs on Christmas Day - aside from him generally not being a good defender, that tells us all we need to know. Some of his defensive stats are bolstered by the Warriors playing good team defense - similar to how the Cavs defense in the finals made Irving look like a better defender than he actually is.

Due to his defensive prowess, Green is the most valuable Warrior - several Warriors fans have pointed this out as well. I'm fine with us calling Curry a better player than Green because of his supreme offensive capabilities, but not so much with calling Steph a top 5 player given that caveat. He had an amazing season but calling him the best player in the NBA last year came from a desire to see LeBron dethroned. There's no way to me that Steph is a better player than Kawhi Leonard though.

That's the only time Curry has ever been taken off by Kerr in crunch time in 3 years under Kerr.

I'm not sure how you can judge a player (or who is more valuable to the team) if you have seen them play twice the entire year. You wouldn't have used the whole taken off in crunch time thing as an argument otherwise. Curry is just fine defensively, he fits in well into our scheme due to his anticipation and playing passing lanes.

[bmurph128]

Lebron is the second best player in NBA.

C'mon, this is what people were saying last year before the finals. Not only is he the best player in the NBA, there's a bigger gap between him and #2 than there is #2 and #10

[bmurph128]

Why not? What's not "two ways" about Curry?

Defense.

He was taken off the court by Kerr in crunch time defensively by Kerr against the Cavs on Christmas Day - aside from him generally not being a good defender, that tells us all we need to know. Some of his defensive stats are bolstered by the Warriors playing good team defense - similar to how the Cavs defense in the finals made Irving look like a better defender than he actually is.

Due to his defensive prowess, Green is the most valuable Warrior - several Warriors fans have pointed this out as well. I'm fine with us calling Curry a better player than Green because of his supreme offensive capabilities, but not so much with calling Steph a top 5 player given that caveat. He had an amazing season but calling him the best player in the NBA last year came from a desire to see LeBron dethroned. There's no way to me that Steph is a better player than Kawhi Leonard though.

That's the only time Curry has ever been taken off by Kerr in crunch time in 3 years under Kerr.

I'm not sure how you can judge a player (or who is more valuable to the team) if you have seen them play twice the entire year. You wouldn't have used the whole taken off in crunch time thing as an argument otherwise. Curry is just fine defensively, he fits in well into our scheme due to his anticipation and playing passing lanes.

I've watched other Warrior games too - and obviously the finals last year - he's not a good defender. The Cavs won a championship by literally going at him every opportunity they got.

And it doesn't matter that it only happened once that Kerr took him out - that's one more than has ever been done for the other guys were talking about as being the best or 2nd best players in the NBA.

[Starboy]

Going a player limited by 2 injuries is a good plan. Lateral quickness suffers a lot during such circumstances.

Lebron is the second best player in NBA.

C'mon, this is what people were saying last year before the finals. Not only is he the best player in the NBA, there's a bigger gap between him and #2 than there is #2 and #10

So are we supposed to wait for the mythical non-coasting Lebron to show up 90 games later? I'll take a player who gives me best player production every game instead of 3 games.

[jg77]

Still not sure how LeBron is universally the best player in the NBA because he won last year's final. Last time I checked the Warriors and Cavs are 1-1 and each team has an asterisk on their championship.

[FNQ]

Still not sure how LeBron is universally the best player in the NBA because he won last year's final. Last time I checked the Warriors and Cavs are 1-1 and each team has an asterisk on their championship.

There's an asterisk on every champion in every year. It's ceremonious, given to the champs by fans of teams who did not win. Frankly I say we skip a step and just re-do the Larry O'Brien trophy into one giant gold asterisk

[Patches Perry]

Still not sure how LeBron is universally the best player in the NBA because he won last year's final. Last time I checked the Warriors and Cavs are 1-1 and each team has an asterisk on their championship.

He was the best player in the finals the year before as well. He was just shy of winning finals MVP while being on the losing team. That's absurd in the modern era.

Last year, he was not only the best in a huge underdog situation, but led both teams in all categories - points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks. That's also absurd. This was for all the marbles, less than 8 months ago. I'm not sold on LeBron declining so much in 8 months that he has lost his status. Yes, he isn't the 82 game marathon warrior anymore, but for a series? Nobody better right now.

LeBron is the best. Even if he has lost a step and isn't the best, we'll need someone to dethrone him before coming to that conclusion. Not sure how you can put anyone over him until they prove it against him when it counts. When you've been the best for almost a decade, you're owed that much.