"System Player" Kawhi 26 ppg on 49/41/91, dominating star SFs..

[Fico92]

That's totally false. He's so well considered that LeBron is jealous of him.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/lebron-james-other-top-players-151638156.html

It's not false at all, at least on this board , we got post after post about how Kawhi is a system player, how he just a 2nd option on a championship team , can't lead it. the Spurs perform better without him or Harden, Westbrook etc. much better than him....
I'd say he's pretty underrated by the fans

If we're being accurate though, he hasn't gotten past the 2nd round as the main guy, and both Westbrook/Harden are having better years than him individually.

If you put him on a mediocre team w/o Popovich, how many games would he win?

So, what has changed those narratives that he's a system player who is just a 2nd option on a title team and is a lesser player than Westbrook/Harden?

Not saying this to discredit Leonard, just saying him avg 26 ppg on 49/41/91 doesn't really prove anything with regards to your points.

What do you define as the "main guy"? Most efficient player, most FGA? Is it an offense-only metric, or does it actually take into account the other half of the game? Also, how many games does it take leading in whatever metric you chose before someone is considered the "main guy"? Does being the best player on the biggest stage, facing LeBron, qualify someone as the "main guy"? What about if he follows it up with much better next two years, proving it's not a 1-time thing ala Billups?

If you put him on a team without Popovich, he would certainly win less games, but would also certainly put up better individual numbers. Unfortunately, with the Spurs, it's never both. The fact that he's putting up 26ppg as the DPOY is incredible in itself. How many people have done that?

[yosemiteben]

I don't regularly watch Spurs games, and I just can't wrap my head around how he has the statistical output that he does.

[Ballerhogger]

He's great player that Spurs got 2nd round. Very rare . Having a great coach and system has obviously helped him develop faster.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Has his defense taken a step back?

The eye test suggests he hasn't but a lot of the metrics suggest that the team performs better defensively when he's on the bench. I still say he's the best perimeter defender in the league.

That being said I haven't seen more than 8 Spurs games this season so maybe someone who watches them a little more frequently can provide more thorough insight.

There was a thread about that. It's not his defense, it's about offense of the other team. They figured out that they gain more from attacking Gasol and Aldrige with the best perimeter guy standing on the weak side with Kawhi

[Daddy 801]

He's great player that Spurs got 2nd round. Very rare . Having a great coach and system has obviously helped him develop faster.

Second round? What?

[JonW138]

It's not false at all, at least on this board , we got post after post about how Kawhi is a system player, how he just a 2nd option on a championship team , can't lead it. the Spurs perform better without him or Harden, Westbrook etc. much better than him....
I'd say he's pretty underrated by the fans

If we're being accurate though, he hasn't gotten past the 2nd round as the main guy, and both Westbrook/Harden are having better years than him individually.

If you put him on a mediocre team w/o Popovich, how many games would he win?

So, what has changed those narratives that he's a system player who is just a 2nd option on a title team and is a lesser player than Westbrook/Harden?

Not saying this to discredit Leonard, just saying him avg 26 ppg on 49/41/91 doesn't really prove anything with regards to your points.

What do you define as the "main guy"? Most efficient player, most FGA? Is it an offense-only metric, or does it actually take into account the other half of the game? Also, how many games does it take leading in whatever metric you chose before someone is considered the "main guy"? Does being the best player on the biggest stage, facing LeBron, qualify someone as the "main guy"? What about if he follows it up with much better next two years, proving it's not a 1-time thing ala Billups?

If you put him on a team without Popovich, he would certainly win less games, but would also certainly put up better individual numbers. Unfortunately, with the Spurs, it's never both. The fact that he's putting up 26ppg as the DPOY is incredible in itself. How many people have done that?

Unless it's a super team with multiple superstars (LeBron/Wade, Shaq/Kobe, Durant/Curry etc) where it's debatable who is the main guy, I don't think you need metrics to determine it. It's usually pretty clear who the best player on a team is. Jordan was the main guy on CHI. LeBron is the main guy on CLE. Leonard has been the main guy on SAS the last 2 yrs. He wasn't the main guy on their 2014 team though. He played the best in that series, but he didn't lead them to the championship as the main guy from start to finish like a Jordan, Magic, Isiah, LeBron, Curry etc.

Again, I'm not trying to discredit him. I'm just trying to be accurate. If people think he's led a team to a championship as a team's main guy because he won FMVP, that's revisionist history. Duncan & Parker were the main guys on that team.

His numbers + 2 DPOY + being the best player on a contender right now are all incredibly impressive. But it doesn't prove anything with regards to the points about him being a system player and whether or not he can be a main guy on a title team, until he actually does it. As of now he's only gotten to the 2nd rd as the main guy and performed poorly in that series vs Durant, if we're being honest.

[jc23]

i can honestly say in their meetings he has made Jimmy Butler look like a average player.

I still remember in the finals vs miami how lebron was at the free throw line and looked back seeing Kahwai check in and mouthing "f**k", because he knew everything just got alot more difficult.

[OsuCavsfan103]

If I could put any player in the league on my Cavaliers (who could fit well) w/o having to give up anyone in return, he would be my first choice.

[baldur]

He's great player that Spurs got 2nd round. Very rare . Having a great coach and system has obviously helped him develop faster.

Second round? What?

probably he knows leonard was selected in the second round of the draft.

[ThumbsUpBaby]

First David Robinson, then Tim Duncan, and now Kawhi Leonard. Who's next for Spurs?

Kawhi Leonard is a MVP-caliber player. Anyone who's calling him a 2nd fiddle type of player or a "system" player needs to get their heads checked. What an amazing player he is. It's even better that he's not a diva.

[bondom34]

He's great player that Spurs got 2nd round. Very rare . Having a great coach and system has obviously helped him develop faster.

Second round? What?

probably he knows leonard was selected in the second round of the draft.

I'm only more confused now.

[baldur]

Second round? What?

probably he knows leonard was selected in the second round of the draft.

I'm only more confused now.

what part made you confused? the guy thinks leonard was selected in the second round of the draft, not in the first round. What is not clear here?

[DeadHorse]

probably he knows leonard was selected in the second round of the draft.

I'm only more confused now.

what part made you confused? the guy thinks leonard was selected in the second round of the draft, not in the first round. What is not clear here?

He was selected 15th in the first round

[baldur]

I'm only more confused now.

what part made you confused? the guy thinks leonard was selected in the second round of the draft, not in the first round. What is not clear here?

He was selected 15th in the first round

thats what i was saying. i said the guy was mistaken.

[bleeds_purple]

What do you define as the "main guy"? Most efficient player, most FGA? Is it an offense-only metric, or does it actually take into account the other half of the game? Also, how many games does it take leading in whatever metric you chose before someone is considered the "main guy"? Does being the best player on the biggest stage, facing LeBron, qualify someone as the "main guy"? What about if he follows it up with much better next two years, proving it's not a 1-time thing ala Billups?

If you put him on a team without Popovich, he would certainly win less games, but would also certainly put up better individual numbers. Unfortunately, with the Spurs, it's never both. The fact that he's putting up 26ppg as the DPOY is incredible in itself. How many people have done that?

The "main guy" is the guy you give the ball when its a close playoff game and you get to that inevitable point where your offense stalls. In this situation, the main gain says "step aside fellas, I got this" and leads the team to victory.

Over the last two years Kawai was placed in this position and fell short thus far.

Kawai is a Scottie Pippen. He's no Michael Jordan.

[Frankie23]

That's what playing with 3 HofFamers and the GOAT coach can get you.

You enter the league and all that is asked from you is: Work on your 3 point shot and study players cause you're going to be the main wing defender.
2nd year: improve your handle and keep improving your shot.
3rd year: keep improving your handle and shot. Be more confident to score. (Finals MVP)
4th year: Post moves, handle and shot. Green light to take shots and slowly taking some clutch shots.
5th year: You're the guy.
6th year: Improve 1on1 and all around game (Kobe workouts). This year.

The "system player" that everybody is saying (or used to) is cause he was limit as he wasn't there yet. But his workouts during the summer has made him the beast we're watching now. That's why veteran leadership (to show work ethic) and winning is the key to these successful stories. When you get to a bad team without veteran leadership, you're expected to do everything. Losing, Losing and losing may affect your confidence.

[Kabookalu]

I cannot believe that the Jazz passed on Kawhi TWICE in the draft.

That draft was hard for me to take. I was enraged at the Jazz F.O. I was literally screaming at my TV and throwing pillows around on draft night when they took Enes Kanter and Alec Burks ahead of Leonard. I think my family thought I had gone crazy.

What a great player!

Sent from my SM-N900T using RealGM mobile app

Wait really? Yeah I can understand Alec Burks, but Kanter was projected to be an all star and was the consensus third pick in that draft. Leonard was nowhere near projected to go that high. Hell, some Raptors fans wanted him at 5 and that was a reach too. Yeah looking back at it now Leonard was worth it, but I can't remember a single Jazz fan back then furious taking Kanter over Leonard.

Besides, you wouldn't be getting the Leonard you see now. The Spurs did an unbelievable job developing him. The key turning point in his development was when the Spurs reached out to him before the lockout so he can work on his shot. He went from being a bad shooter to a great one over night. Do you think your organization would have done the same? Yes they would have obviously worked with him after the lockout, but the lockout was a HUGE blessing in disguise for Leonard and the Spurs because it allowed him to completely revamp his shot for like 3 months straight unimpeded. The way the Spurs frantically got a shooting coach to get in touch with Leonard before they were completely barred from contacting their players until the lockout ended, that would not have been a priority for most teams during that kind of stressful situation.

[Fico92]

What do you define as the "main guy"? Most efficient player, most FGA? Is it an offense-only metric, or does it actually take into account the other half of the game? Also, how many games does it take leading in whatever metric you chose before someone is considered the "main guy"? Does being the best player on the biggest stage, facing LeBron, qualify someone as the "main guy"? What about if he follows it up with much better next two years, proving it's not a 1-time thing ala Billups?

If you put him on a team without Popovich, he would certainly win less games, but would also certainly put up better individual numbers. Unfortunately, with the Spurs, it's never both. The fact that he's putting up 26ppg as the DPOY is incredible in itself. How many people have done that?

The "main guy" is the guy you give the ball when its a close playoff game and you get to that inevitable point where your offense stalls. In this situation, the main gain says "step aside fellas, I got this" and leads the team to victory.

Over the last two years Kawai was placed in this position and fell short thus far.

Kawai is a Scottie Pippen. He's no Michael Jordan.

So when he was the main guy in the Finals preventing the Heat three-peat, it wasn't enough of a sample size? Just curious, how did Jordan, Kobe, LeBron do in their first years as being "the guy"? I feel like there was some early exits/no playoff years in there for a few of these...

[MalonesElbows]

No one in the world predicted this guy would be a superstar. What a find for the Spurs.

Weaknesses: Does not have one aspect offensively that stands out or which allows him to consistently score the ball … With his size and frame, will almost certainly be a perimeter player at the next level, but he lacks the polish and skill necessary to consistently operate on the wing … He does not have break down ability off the dribble and he is especially shaky handling the ball with his left hand … His jumpshot (while definitely improved) is still very inconsistent … The release comes high off his head and it is somewhat of a sling motion, which results in a fairly flat shot that goes all over the place … At this level, he has a size advantage on almost a nightly basis, but he still chooses to take the majority of his shots from the outside … Takes a high number of off balance shots, but does not show the ability to convert them at a good percentage … He does not have a great touch around the basket, and unless he can get inside position on the defense, he struggles finishing when contested … Not very disciplined defensively, he gambles far too often and leaves his team susceptible to giving up easy baskets …

[3Diamantidis]

He's 1% away from a rare feat in NBA history, something that only 4 players have done before: Being a 25+ppg scorer on 50/40/90 efficiency - Bird, Dirk, KD, Curry

However, Kawhi has done something that none of these 4 could dream of doing - won DPOY not once but twice.

This year numbers vs. Top SF's:

Kawhi - 35/5r/3a/5s
Durant: 27-10r-4a-2b-2s

Kawhi - 21/9r/2b **Excluding the 30point game since Giannis only played 9 mins**
Giannis - 22/13r/2a/2s/1b

Kawhi - 24.5/9/5/2s/1b
Butler - 16/7/3.5/1.5s/1b

Kawhi - 41/6/5/1/1
LeBron - 29/6/7/2


Here's a look at how Kawhi played vs the top SF's last year:

viewtopic.php?t=1419123

Seeing as a majority of players seem to hit their statistical prime around age 27-28 (2-3 years for Kawhi), what are we looking for his prime numbers to be? Keeping in mind these are his 5 previous year improvements

7.9/51/1.1/1.3/0.4 on 49/38/77
11.9/6.0/1.6/1.7/0.6 on 49/37/83
12.8/6.2/2.0/1.7/0.8 on 52/38/80
16.5/7.2/2.5/2.3/0.8 on 48/35/52
21.2/6.8/2.6/1.8/1.0 on 51/44/87
25.5/5.7/3.2/1.8/0.7 on 49/42/91 <-- current year
Next year
Prime
Prime

You do realize that in the matchup you posted giannis beat him right?
I trust you also realize that giannis is 22 and that he had no issues at all facing leonard.
He will have no issues posting better numbers than these at the age of kawhi. Hell he is having better overall numbers even at 22.
So, kawhi can dominate anyone you posted not named Giannis.