Political Roundtable Part XII

[verbal8]

The biggest victims of ISIS are Muslims in Muslim countries. Making policies that discriminate against Muslims feeds into ISIS propaganda and discourages anti-ISIS Muslims.

Ok Real talk. America's biggest threat is homegrown terror. How many young minds did Trump radicalize today? You reap what you sow. And in typical conservative fashion, you never get the point until it hits you personally.

Yeah! Wouldn't wanna piss off ISIS, they might go and fire up the ol' terrorist recruitment program for all the pissed off muslims that entered America through the flawed refugee program! It's not like this logic is a terrorist threat in itself in any way!

Might as well allow MORE refugees into our country because ISIS didn't already hate the U.S. Before! It's not like obama passed some executive order in 2011 to take away the visa waiver program in these EXACT 7 countries, and trump is just simply acting on the conclusions of the previous administration! No way!

I'm being totally objective and not just trying to spin everything into my anti-trump narrative!

ITS NOT LIKE I JUST WAITED UNTIL OBAMA LEFT OFFICE AND TRUMP ENTERED TO START BLAMING THE US FOR ISIS.

let more refugees in at the small risk that they turn on us in the name of Islam if we piss them off? Do you think the families of those shot dead at pulse night club "get the point" it hit them in a pretty personal way no?

[verbal8]

Does he remember this?

Read on Twitter

[NatP4]

The biggest victims of ISIS are Muslims in Muslim countries. Making policies that discriminate against Muslims feeds into ISIS propaganda and discourages anti-ISIS Muslims.

Ok Real talk. America's biggest threat is homegrown terror. How many young minds did Trump radicalize today? You reap what you sow. And in typical conservative fashion, you never get the point until it hits you personally.

Yeah! Wouldn't wanna piss off ISIS, they might go and fire up the ol' terrorist recruitment program for all the pissed off muslims that entered America through the flawed refugee program! It's not like this logic is a terrorist threat in itself in any way!

Might as well allow MORE refugees into our country because ISIS didn't already hate the U.S. Before! It's not like obama passed some executive order in 2011 to take away the visa waiver program in these EXACT 7 countries, and trump is just simply acting on the conclusions of the previous administration! No way!

I'm being totally objective and not just trying to spin everything into my anti-trump narrative!

ITS NOT LIKE I JUST WAITED UNTIL OBAMA LEFT OFFICE AND TRUMP ENTERED TO START BLAMING THE US FOR ISIS.

let more refugees in at the small risk that they turn on us in the name of Islam if we piss them off? Do you think the families of those shot dead at pulse night club "get the point" it hit them in a pretty personal way no?

Not sure I follow, 50+ Muslim countries, executive order bans 7 countries that the Obama administration already identified as threats, how is that "discriminating against muslims?"

Wasn't ISIS already a propaganda master at the start of all of this? You're essentially saying that we should continue to let these people in without being able to see any type of background history from their previous home country, or else we will piss off ISIS and assist them in their recruitment of more muslims? It's literally a terrorist threat in itself.

American people have also been pretty big victims of ISIS by the way

[Doug_Blew]

how is that "discriminating against muslims?"

President Donald Trump pledged Friday to prioritize Christian refugees in the Middle East as he used his executive power to suspend the U.S.’s refugee resettlement program.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/01/27/trump-pledges-to-prioritize-christians-as-he-freezes-us-refugee-program/

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[NatP4]

how is that "discriminating against muslims?"

President Donald Trump pledged Friday to prioritize Christian refugees in the Middle East as he used his executive power to suspend the U.S.’s refugee resettlement program.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/01/27/trump-pledges-to-prioritize-christians-as-he-freezes-us-refugee-program/

Mentions that it was difficult for Syrian Christians to get to US over the last 8 years, and that he wants to help them? Is this seriously what people are getting so triggered about with the whole "prioritizing christians" thing LOL. The executive order makes no mention of religion.

Which people do you think face the most religious persecution in the ME?

[Doug_Blew]

how is that "discriminating against muslims?"

President Donald Trump pledged Friday to prioritize Christian refugees in the Middle East as he used his executive power to suspend the U.S.’s refugee resettlement program.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/01/27/trump-pledges-to-prioritize-christians-as-he-freezes-us-refugee-program/

Mentions that it was difficult for Syrian Christians to get to US over the last 8 years, and that he wants to help them? Is this seriously what people are getting so triggered about with the whole "prioritizing christians" thing LOL. The executive order makes no mention of religion.

Which people do you think face the most religious persecution in the ME?

He is discriminating against Muslims. You didn't ask why he is discriminating against Muslims. Any fool can give a reason why.

[NatP4]

President Donald Trump pledged Friday to prioritize Christian refugees in the Middle East as he used his executive power to suspend the U.S.’s refugee resettlement program.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/01/27/trump-pledges-to-prioritize-christians-as-he-freezes-us-refugee-program/

Mentions that it was difficult for Syrian Christians to get to US over the last 8 years, and that he wants to help them? Is this seriously what people are getting so triggered about with the whole "prioritizing christians" thing LOL. The executive order makes no mention of religion.

Which people do you think face the most religious persecution in the ME?

He is discriminating against Muslims. You didn't ask why he is discriminating against Muslims. Any fool can give a reason why.

Except he isn't though.... he's identifying a group of people that are being persecuted in the Middle East.

[JWizmentality]

how is that "discriminating against muslims?"

President Donald Trump pledged Friday to prioritize Christian refugees in the Middle East as he used his executive power to suspend the U.S.’s refugee resettlement program.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/01/27/trump-pledges-to-prioritize-christians-as-he-freezes-us-refugee-program/

Mentions that it was difficult for Syrian Christians to get to US over the last 8 years, and that he wants to help them? Is this seriously what people are getting so triggered about with the whole "prioritizing christians" thing LOL. The executive order makes no mention of religion.

Which people do you think face the most religious persecution in the ME?

You can't be that dense. No country on that list attacked the US. Otherwise Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan would make it too. ISIS has killed more Muslims than Christians.

[NatP4]

President Donald Trump pledged Friday to prioritize Christian refugees in the Middle East as he used his executive power to suspend the U.S.’s refugee resettlement program.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/01/27/trump-pledges-to-prioritize-christians-as-he-freezes-us-refugee-program/

Mentions that it was difficult for Syrian Christians to get to US over the last 8 years, and that he wants to help them? Is this seriously what people are getting so triggered about with the whole "prioritizing christians" thing LOL. The executive order makes no mention of religion.

Which people do you think face the most religious persecution in the ME?

You can't be that dense. No country on that list attacked the US. Otherwise Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan would make it too. ISIS has killed more Muslims than Christians.

There are far more muslims no? Surely you can't be that dense, I'm sure you realize that ISIS has access to passports and tools to produce IDs in those banned countries, the very same 7 countries that the obama administration identified as threats.

I mean this surely isn't just people being anti-trump everything and attempting to find the slightest non-PC loophole to oppose him.

I mean seriously, a worldwide trending hashtag of Muslim ban? Complete nonsense. I mean this conversation started with OP claiming that Trump is "radicalizing muslims" lol

[closg00]

As someone else wrote, what a complete sh*tshow of a government. The Muslim ban was rushed-out without any thought or planning, this is what happens when you have people who hate government, trying to run it. Just mind-boggling that they could not anticipate the results of this. Amateur hour folks.


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[Induveca]

Better due diligence is required by the state department for the impacted countries. It's a list of nations which has been circulated for years due to terror camps. Four relevant variables currently exist in each country:

1. Known training facilities/desire to export terrorists are in perpetual existence.
2. Government unable/unwilling to provide reliable background information on citizenry to perform significant due diligence by US state department employees.
3. Iran has been funneling money/people into these specific countries for training radical groups for multiple years.
4. The US and other western nations are actively bombing each of these nations (with exception of Iran) to destroy infrastructure aiding known radical groups, largely funded via Iran.

This is a 3 month ban while more stringent due diligence processes are put into place by the state department for Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Yemen.

People screaming "why not Egypt, why not Saudi Arabia, Nigeria etc", the US already has extensive background check capabilities with all of those nations, and most importantly have friendly relations/aren't engaged in active warfare inside their borders.

If you wish to ignore all of that, and just scream "Muslim Ban", you're being intellectually dishonest.

[montestewart]

Mentions that it was difficult for Syrian Christians to get to US over the last 8 years, and that he wants to help them? Is this seriously what people are getting so triggered about with the whole "prioritizing christians" thing LOL. The executive order makes no mention of religion.

Which people do you think face the most religious persecution in the ME?

You can't be that dense. No country on that list attacked the US. Otherwise Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan would make it too. ISIS has killed more Muslims than Christians.

There are far more muslims no? Surely you can't be that dense, I'm sure you realize that ISIS has access to passports and tools to produce IDs in those banned countries, the very same 7 countries that the obama administration identified as threats.

I mean this surely isn't just people being anti-trump everything and attempting to find the slightest non-PC loophole to oppose him.

I mean seriously, a worldwide trending hashtag of Muslim ban? Complete nonsense. I mean this conversation started with OP claiming that Trump is "radicalizing muslims" lol

Everybody stop calling each other dense, and carefully read posts before responding. Seeing a lot of responses that seem to ignore or carelessly restate facts they are ostensibly responding to. Ends up sounding like message board equivalent of the crazy person on the corner ranting about "They killed Kennedy with the radar beams. The radar beams!" (yeah, stole that from Zippy the Pinhead)

A few stated premises:

1) The ban focuses on seven countries that (I'm told) do not have documented history of terrorists harming US, while overlooking numerous countries with a well-documented history of terrorists harming US. The latter countries that did not make the list include countries that Trump, his cronies, etc. have business dealings with. Thus, the order has the appearance of window dressing that may impose severe restrictions on some poor saps from countries that are not really threats to the US, while not addressing the sources of threats.

2) Most domestic attacks on the US are homegrown, committed by born or naturalized citizens. The ban furthers the sense of window dressing by not addressing that issue. The discriminatory ban will likely further inflame extremist anger over anti-Muslim actions, which may result in new terrorist attacks on US soil, probably committed by people already in this country.

3) DHS apparently says they were not consulted on the what or how of this and are not sure what to do.

My opinion, it looks like the Executive Order from do-nothing, know-nothing blowhardinginian. As usual, everyone just wants to protect their phony baloney jobs. Political support usually looks like sports fandom anyway, so no surprise this order is getting a lot of support. GO TRUMP! WE'RE #1!

[dckingsfan]

To add to Monte's statement, I think if we look at this through the lens of recent history in Europe it is easier to understand what is happening here.

EU Immigration Policy:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_5.12.3.html

It has been one of the EU's flaws. Basically open borders between the EU countries but with the notion that the EU could also open up immigration from the outside. It took any control of immigration out of the hands of the countries.

One result was Brexit - this was really the "first symptom". It wasn't so much that those in the UK didn't want any immigration, it was that they wanted control of immigration and slowing down the rate of immigration. That led to the ouster of the prime minister.

Another result was the shift in politics. The rise of other more right of center politics. Including Marine Le Pen in France, Angela Merkel's party has made historic losses in elections for the Berlin state (her quote is 'turn back time' with regards to immigration, rise of Austria's Freedom Party, etc.

The publicity from the recent terrorist attacks in Paris (137 killed, 368 injured), Belgium Brussels suicide bombings (35 killed, 340 injured), France Nice truck attack (87 killed) and Berlin Christmas market attack have fueled the "anti-Muslim" sentiment in Europe. Talking with my Belgium friends - they just want to limit the numbers that are immigrating. Those on the right in Europe are in the center in the US

Now, if we look at it through the lens of Americans, you can see where this is going. We still have the 9/11 attack that is deep in our psyche. Add to that San Bernardino and Orlando and it keeps the issue front and center. Although gruesome, the attacks have been limited here. Okay, 9/11 can't be minimized.

Then in September of 2016, Obama announced plans big boost refugees the U.S. will accept over next year to 110,000. (Hillary probably didn't realize how much this hurt her).

If you look at it through that lens, you can see why this is such a successful proposition for Trump. Europe and the US are already leaning this way.

[DCZards]

I guess Trump has decided that we don't need the support of the banned countries in helping to wipe out Isis in those countries, as Trump has promised to do. Not a good idea to alienate, which this ban certainly does, those leaders and countries we need to fight Isis.

[Induveca]

I guess Trump has decided that we don't need the support of the banned countries in helping to wipe out Isis in those countries, as Trump has promised to do. Not a good idea to alienate, which this ban certainly does, those leaders and countries we need to fight Isis.

What leaders? With the exception of Iran every single one of the countries are currently engaged in civil wars, each seemingly justified by extreme/moderate interpretations of the Koran.

[closg00]

The Trump alternative fact of the day: His ban is working out nicely"


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[NatP4]

The Trump alternative fact of the day: His ban is working out nicely"


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Right after you referred to the new executive order as a "Muslim ban" just a couple posts up.

[nate33]

Yeah, but if it's China and Mexico getting stiffed, while we get the benefits, it's okay with me.

Benefits like... a wall... and isolating yourself while leaving an opportunistic and motivated China significantly increase its influence. Oh and robot workers. Don't forget the robot workers. There will be lots of those.

Seriously though, there had better be benefits, and benefits for everyone, and that doesn't seem likely to me.

The biggest benefit is that the average illegal immigrant costs society thousands of dollars in welfare and other benefits while contributing very little to the tax base:

The governmental system is highly redistributive. Well-educated households tend to be net tax contributors: The taxes they pay exceed the direct and means-tested benefits, education, and population-based services they receive. For example, in 2010, in the whole U.S. population, households with college-educated heads, on average, received $24,839 in government benefits while paying $54,089 in taxes. The average college-educated household thus generated a fiscal surplus of $29,250 that government used to finance benefits for other households.

Other households are net tax consumers: The benefits they receive exceed the taxes they pay. These households generate a “fiscal deficit” that must be financed by taxes from other households or by government borrowing. For example, in 2010, in the U.S. population as a whole, households headed by persons without a high school degree, on average, received $46,582 in government benefits while paying only $11,469 in taxes. This generated an average fiscal deficit (benefits received minus taxes paid) of $35,113.

The high deficits of poorly educated households are important in the amnesty debate because the typical unlawful immigrant has only a 10th-grade education. Half of unlawful immigrant households are headed by an individual with less than a high school degree, and another 25 percent of household heads have only a high school degree.

In 2010, the average unlawful immigrant household received around $24,721 in government benefits and services while paying some $10,334 in taxes. This generated an average annual fiscal deficit (benefits received minus taxes paid) of around $14,387 per household.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/05/the-fiscal-cost-of-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-to-the-us-taxpayer

So $14,000 per household. An estimated 700,000 illegal immigrants sneak across every year. So that's probably about 300,000 households. If the wall stops half of them, then it's stopping 150,000 households worth of taxpayer subsidies. 150,000 times $14,000 is $2.1B a year, per year, forever.

[closg00]

The Trump alternative fact of the day: His ban is working out nicely"


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Right after you referred to the new executive order as a "Muslim ban" just a couple posts up.

This is a message board