2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[bondom34]

And yet, plus minus data still puts him well ahead of Harden and near Lebron. The TD thing is whatever, he's said he doesn't care as much about that as winning. He had a bad game, but they're still 18-6 when he has one. And he's not magically going to be more efficient. Sorry but if that's the complaint you might as well complain the sky is blue.

Efficiency is not equivalent to offensive ability.

Triple double season average is a big issue because there are a lot of people (both fans and the media) who state that Russ should get the MVP if he averages the triple double. For these people, nothing else matters, which makes this whole triple double thing quite irritating.

I haven't met these people. But at this point, TD or not, he's in the running. If he averages 30/10/9 and is having this impact he deserves it just as much.

I think people itt are too focused on TDs. I'm more focused on level of play, which to this point has been MVP worthy.

[4WhomRajaTolls]

RW was probably #1 for the first month of the season. And he earned it. Right now, he isn't top 3 IMO.

[bondom34]

RW was probably #1 for the first month of the season. And he earned it. Right now, he isn't top 3 IMO.

That seems bold.

[laika]

And yet, plus minus data still puts him well ahead of Harden and near Lebron. The TD thing is whatever, he's said he doesn't care as much about that as winning. He had a bad game, but they're still 18-6 when he has one. And he's not magically going to be more efficient. Sorry but if that's the complaint you might as well complain the sky is blue.

Efficiency is not equivalent to offensive ability.

Apparently +/- doesn't count at all this year. Harden is going to run away with the MVP despite being way behind 3 other candidates in +/-.

You have to wonder how bad Harden would have to be the rest of the year not to win it. Maybe Harden is curious also. Horrendous game tonight.

[bondom34]

And yet, plus minus data still puts him well ahead of Harden and near Lebron. The TD thing is whatever, he's said he doesn't care as much about that as winning. He had a bad game, but they're still 18-6 when he has one. And he's not magically going to be more efficient. Sorry but if that's the complaint you might as well complain the sky is blue.

Efficiency is not equivalent to offensive ability.

Apparently +/- doesn't count at all this year. Harden is going to run away with the MVP despite being way behind 3 other candidates in +/-.

You have to wonder how bad Harden would have to be the rest of the year not to win it. Maybe Harden is curious also. Horrendous game tonight.

Its a strange award and debate. If you want to argue individual level of play, you could argue any of Westbrook, Lebron, Durant, or Harden to me. If you want to argue who's most valuable to their team its down to Westbrook and Harden. And numbers bear out Westbrook carrying OKC more than Harden carrying Houston, though Houston's clearly had way more team success.

I don't think using only PM data is viable, but totally ignoring it isn't ideal either. There's some mix there, and essentially arguing "he should be more efficient and rebound less" isn't an argument that holds water.

[Starboy]

And yet, plus minus data still puts him well ahead of Harden and near Lebron. The TD thing is whatever, he's said he doesn't care as much about that as winning. He had a bad game, but they're still 18-6 when he has one. And he's not magically going to be more efficient. Sorry but if that's the complaint you might as well complain the sky is blue.

Efficiency is not equivalent to offensive ability.

Apparently +/- doesn't count at all this year. Harden is going to run away with the MVP despite being way behind 3 other candidates in +/-.

You have to wonder how bad Harden would have to be the rest of the year not to win it. Maybe Harden is curious also. Horrendous game tonight.

Its a strange award and debate. If you want to argue individual level of play, you could argue any of Westbrook, Lebron, Durant, or Harden to me. If you want to argue who's most valuable to their team its down to Westbrook and Harden. And numbers bear out Westbrook carrying OKC more than Harden carrying Houston, though Houston's clearly had way more team success.

I don't think using only PM data is viable, but totally ignoring it isn't ideal either. There's some mix there, and essentially arguing "he should be more efficient and rebound less" isn't an argument that holds water.

Why are you acting like it has ever been the LITERALLY "most valuable to the team" award? It hasn't and it will never be that way. The award goes to the best player on a top 3 team (top 5 if the story is very interesting).

As far as the notion that a superstar having to be more efficient "isn't an argument that holds water"...That's laughable. OKC would benefit tremendously from Westbrook focusing on his defensive assignment as well as scoring more efficiently. Chasing triple doubles is more fun I'd imagine though.

[bondom34]

Apparently +/- doesn't count at all this year. Harden is going to run away with the MVP despite being way behind 3 other candidates in +/-.

You have to wonder how bad Harden would have to be the rest of the year not to win it. Maybe Harden is curious also. Horrendous game tonight.

Its a strange award and debate. If you want to argue individual level of play, you could argue any of Westbrook, Lebron, Durant, or Harden to me. If you want to argue who's most valuable to their team its down to Westbrook and Harden. And numbers bear out Westbrook carrying OKC more than Harden carrying Houston, though Houston's clearly had way more team success.

I don't think using only PM data is viable, but totally ignoring it isn't ideal either. There's some mix there, and essentially arguing "he should be more efficient and rebound less" isn't an argument that holds water.

Why are you acting like it has ever been the LITERALLY "most valuable to the team" award? It hasn't and it will never be that way. The award goes to the best player on a top 3 team (top 5 if the story is very interesting).

As far as the notion that a superstar having to be more efficient "isn't an argument that holds water"...That's laughable. OKC would benefit tremendously from Westbrook focusing on his defensive assignment as well as scoring more efficiently. Chasing triple doubles is more fun I'd imagine though.

I'd imagine arguing this point would be pretty fruitless, because you seem to lack any evidence of what you're claiming. I mean, despite Westbrook carrying a worse cast and being top 6 in RPM, 2nd in ORPM, and defending better than Harden.


And yes, the argument holds no water because efficiency is not equivalent to offensive ability. That's actually pretty laughable.

Oh, and for the "most valuable to the team" see every MVP Lebron ever won.

[Starboy]

...but Lebron was the best player on the best team every year he won, but the lockout year where he was the second seed..?


Efficiency is absolutely equivalent to offensive ability with proper volume. Westbrook has shown that he's a league average scorer at high volume, which isn't as important as being siginificantly above league average efficiency at slightly lower volume. The only thing that changed versus last year is that he is given the free reign to do whatever he want on the team. It's exciting. When he makes an average player perform above his expectations, I'll agree that Westbrook has taken the next step.

[bondom34]

...but Lebron was the best player on the best team every year he won, but the lockout year where he was the second seed..?


Efficiency is absolutely equivalent to offensive ability with proper volume. Westbrook has shown that he's a league average scorer at high volume, which isn't as important as being siginificantly above league average efficiency at slightly lower volume. The only thing that changed versus last year is that he is given the free reign to do whatever he want on the team. It's exciting. When he makes an average player perform above his expectations, I'll agree that Westbrook has taken the next step.

No, not at all. He's been probably the 2nd best offensive player this season, and has taken "the next step" years ago lol.

Playmaking, passing, facilitation.

And as for your last sentence that's exactly what he's done for his entire career and even more this year. It is mindblowing if you'd believe otherwise. Unless you'd not count carrying an offense that's near league worst to top 10 not "making players perform better".

[K_chile22]

...but Lebron was the best player on the best team every year he won, but the lockout year where he was the second seed..?


Efficiency is absolutely equivalent to offensive ability with proper volume. Westbrook has shown that he's a league average scorer at high volume, which isn't as important as being siginificantly above league average efficiency at slightly lower volume. The only thing that changed versus last year is that he is given the free reign to do whatever he want on the team. It's exciting. When he makes an average player perform above his expectations, I'll agree that Westbrook has taken the next step.

No, not at all. He's been probably the 2nd best offensive player this season, and has taken "the next step" years ago lol.

Playmaking, passing, facilitation.

And as for your last sentence that's exactly what he's done for his entire career and even more this year. It is mindblowing if you'd believe otherwise. Unless you'd not count carrying an offense that's near league worst to top 10 not "making players perform better".

Who do you have him second to

[PeptoKlepto]

Can anyone explain to me how/why Kawhi Leonard has a negative net rating?

[bondom34]

...but Lebron was the best player on the best team every year he won, but the lockout year where he was the second seed..?


Efficiency is absolutely equivalent to offensive ability with proper volume. Westbrook has shown that he's a league average scorer at high volume, which isn't as important as being siginificantly above league average efficiency at slightly lower volume. The only thing that changed versus last year is that he is given the free reign to do whatever he want on the team. It's exciting. When he makes an average player perform above his expectations, I'll agree that Westbrook has taken the next step.

No, not at all. He's been probably the 2nd best offensive player this season, and has taken "the next step" years ago lol.

Playmaking, passing, facilitation.

And as for your last sentence that's exactly what he's done for his entire career and even more this year. It is mindblowing if you'd believe otherwise. Unless you'd not count carrying an offense that's near league worst to top 10 not "making players perform better".

Who do you have him second to

Spoiler:

[Starboy]

Nobody told Kevin Durant about the next step that Westbrook took years ago... taking turns on offense instead of demolishing teams together. That's the step that Westbrook needs to take. Spoonfeeding Adams layups and kicking it out to shooters isn't synonymous with making your teammates better.

[bondom34]

Nobody told Kevin Durant about the next step that Westbrook took years ago... taking turns on offense instead of demolishing teams together. That's the step that Westbrook needs to take. Spoonfeeding Adams layups and kicking it out to shooters isn't synonymous with making your teammates better.

No but dragging an offense to being good is.

And this was from then too:

http://grantland.com/features/russell-the-creator-westbrook-nba-oklahoma-city-thunder-western-conference-kevin-durant-serge-ibaka-kevin-love/

Oh, and Durant ran more isos in OKC than Westbrook. And still is last check in GSW. Maybe cupcake just wanted an easy way out.

[ninjamilk23]

Harden is the MVP right now. But Rockets are starting to lose more often which will hurt his chances if it keeps up. I really thought LeBron would average a triple double this year while taking a back seat to let Love and Irving do the scoring.

[Phreak50]

Can anyone explain to me how/why Kawhi Leonard has a negative net rating?

The quality bench during blowouts maybe?

Not sure. He has a positive plus/minus per 100 possessions on court. But all these advanced stats are often misleading.

Anyone who watches the Spurs knows Kawhi is the most value player for his team. By a mile.

To quote an old article on net rating:

The other problem is that it also doesn't even measure just that; it measures how a player's backup, with other backups, plays against the opposing backups. In other words, it actually doesn't tell you what it's trying to. 

This article pointed out that Paul Pierce (in 2011) had the best net rating in the league and Nick Collison was not far behind at 8th.

I think that shows you how valuable this so called 'advanced' stat really is.

[laika]

Can anyone explain to me how/why Kawhi Leonard has a negative net rating?

The quality bench during blowouts maybe?

Not sure. He has a positive plus/minus per 100 possessions on court. But all these advanced stats are often misleading.

Anyone who watches the Spurs knows Kawhi is the most value player for his team. By a mile.

To quote an old article on net rating:

The other problem is that it also doesn't even measure just that; it measures how a player's backup, with other backups, plays against the opposing backups. In other words, it actually doesn't tell you what it's trying to. 

This article pointed out that Paul Pierce (in 2011) had the best net rating in the league and Nick Collison was not far behind at 8th.

I think that shows you how valuable this so called 'advanced' stat really is.

Pierce had a good net rating because he was a star player paired with other really good starters. Nothing mysterious. Collison was not that close to the top and everyone knows he was one of the best role players in the league in his prime. Net rating is a good stat that is dominated by the best players in the league. In fact it is so rare for a superstar to have a zero net rating that you have to question whether Leonard is overrated, rather than question a stat that consistently does a good job of identifying the best players.

http://www.82games.com/1011/ROLRTG7.HTM

[Phreak50]

So post the current year stats and let's see how consistent the stat is?

Again, the Spurs with possibly the best bench in the league is the big factor in this rating and bench vs bench, the Spurs are almost always going to make this stat pointless in comparing their top players.

[Gibson22]

Good night for lebron. Good game and win against RW, who played a terrible game. Maybe worst performance for james harden, and L against the pacers. The spurs lost too.

[cdubbz]

RISE STEPH CURRY, RISE!!!!!!