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Political Roundtable Part XII

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Re: RE: Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#661 » by nate33 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:29 pm

mhd wrote:
nate33 wrote:
mhd wrote:Nate, you seem to suggest that our immigration policy should accept those who are most likely to contribute (i.e. increase the intellectual capacity of our country). Yet, Bannon doesn't want that either: http://www.vox.com/2017/1/29/14429984/trump-immigration-order-steve-bannon (See "Well I got a tougher — you know, when two thirds or three quarters of the CEOs in Silicon Valley are from South Asia or from Asia, I think — on, my point is, a country’s more like, [inaudible], a country’s more than an economy. We’re a civic society").

So, it seems to me that Bannon wants to severely curtail immigration of even those who will clearly be successful (i.e. those with at least college degrees, if not graduate degrees and post docs). It makes no sense. Highly educated people (from wherever) are a boon to any country. Where do you think the tax base comes from to support those who didn't get the education to obtain a successful job?

I'm saying it is economic insanity to import people who are likely to be a net negative economically. There are other reasons not to admit various immigrant groups that are unrelated to the economic argument. Those arguments are weaker IMO, but they have some merit.



I don't any see any merit on curtailing legal immigration from people who are educated to be frank. For example, the richest ethnic group by far in the country are Indian Americans. They are the most educated, have stable families, and are far more likely to have stable families that do not drain the social safety net. Seems to me that they fit the classic conservative mantra of hard work and family values.

Indian Americans are probably the best immigrant group of all. Strong families. Good education. No language barrier. No apparent religious or cultural incompatibility. They seem to assimilate into American culture rapidly too. 2nd generation Indian immigrants seem to completely and effortlessly intermingle with "native" Americans socially.
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Re: RE: Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#662 » by mhd » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:41 pm

nate33 wrote:
mhd wrote:
nate33 wrote:I'm saying it is economic insanity to import people who are likely to be a net negative economically. There are other reasons not to admit various immigrant groups that are unrelated to the economic argument. Those arguments are weaker IMO, but they have some merit.



I don't any see any merit on curtailing legal immigration from people who are educated to be frank. For example, the richest ethnic group by far in the country are Indian Americans. They are the most educated, have stable families, and are far more likely to have stable families that do not drain the social safety net. Seems to me that they fit the classic conservative mantra of hard work and family values.

Indian Americans are probably the best immigrant group of all. Strong families. Good education. No language barrier. No apparent religious or cultural incompatibility. They seem to assimilate into American culture rapidly too. 2nd generation Indian immigrants seem to completely and effortlessly intermingle with "native" Americans socially.



And yet Bannon seems to want to curtail their immigration (See "South Asia", as Indian Americans are a strong component in the tech sector in Silicon Valley). It doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: RE: Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#663 » by dckingsfan » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:43 pm

mhd wrote:
nate33 wrote:
mhd wrote:I don't any see any merit on curtailing legal immigration from people who are educated to be frank. For example, the richest ethnic group by far in the country are Indian Americans. They are the most educated, have stable families, and are far more likely to have stable families that do not drain the social safety net. Seems to me that they fit the classic conservative mantra of hard work and family values.

Indian Americans are probably the best immigrant group of all. Strong families. Good education. No language barrier. No apparent religious or cultural incompatibility. They seem to assimilate into American culture rapidly too. 2nd generation Indian immigrants seem to completely and effortlessly intermingle with "native" Americans socially.

And yet Bannon seems to want to curtail their immigration (See "South Asia", as Indian Americans are a strong component in the tech sector in Silicon Valley). It doesn't make sense to me.

Boom. No coherent immigration strategy.
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Re: RE: Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#664 » by TGW » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:58 pm

mhd wrote:
nate33 wrote:
mhd wrote:

I don't any see any merit on curtailing legal immigration from people who are educated to be frank. For example, the richest ethnic group by far in the country are Indian Americans. They are the most educated, have stable families, and are far more likely to have stable families that do not drain the social safety net. Seems to me that they fit the classic conservative mantra of hard work and family values.

Indian Americans are probably the best immigrant group of all. Strong families. Good education. No language barrier. No apparent religious or cultural incompatibility. They seem to assimilate into American culture rapidly too. 2nd generation Indian immigrants seem to completely and effortlessly intermingle with "native" Americans socially.



And yet Bannon seems to want to curtail their immigration (See "South Asia", as Indian Americans are a strong component in the tech sector in Silicon Valley). It doesn't make sense to me.


It makes perfect sense. Majority of Indians vote democrat. Bannon is trying to cleanse the country of people who vote left.

Also, many Indians are muslim. Keep that in mind too.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#665 » by AFM » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:04 pm

Read on Twitter


:lol:
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Re: RE: Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#666 » by dckingsfan » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:06 pm

TGW wrote:Also, many Indians are muslim. Keep that in mind too.

Aren't Hindus ~ 80 percent of the population? I think France has ~ 10 percent of the population that is Muslim.

I think that the policy just isn't coherent.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#667 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:07 pm

He's such a jerk. Can't imagine this buffoon representing our nation.

I mean seriously. Is that how a president is supposed to act? He insulted the POPE the other day.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#668 » by FAH1223 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:08 pm

The Executive Order was too broad and it wasn't briefed to the DHS Secretary.

It was stupid and caused confusion.

Unfortunately, Obama's administration built up the infrastructure for Trump to do this ban. The 7 countries listed were put in place by him and people aside from some activists, the ACLU, and a few journalists didn't call him out on it and the left wing was asleep at the wheel as they have been for 8 years. The national security state has also continued the Bush era policies and modified/expanded them and we got the revelations from Snowden 3.5 years ago.

Logan Airport right now is where green card holders should reroute to as the Federal Judicial decision on the EO is broader and CBP agents are following that guidance. At the other airports, there's still immense discretionary authority. I'm glad my uncle who is in Somalia right now and travelling on his green card won't be coming back until May when the dust hopefully settles on this.

My dad is in Somalia and the UAE right now. But the funny thing is his US passport doesn't say place of birth as Somalia... it has just the village where my family's clan is from not Mogadishu. :lol: Customs agents here and in places like Kenya don't ever question it.
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Re: RE: Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#669 » by FAH1223 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:11 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
TGW wrote:Also, many Indians are muslim. Keep that in mind too.

Aren't Hindus ~ 80 percent of the population? I think France has ~ 10 percent of the population that is Muslim.

I think that the policy just isn't coherent.


Yeah, Hindus are 80% of the Indian population but since there are 1.2 billion Indians, the 12-15% of the population that is Muslim makes India the country with about the 2nd largest Muslim population in the world after Indonesia. Pakistan is 3rd and then you have Bangladesh.

And TGW is right that most Indians vote Democrat... so there is that method to Bannon's long game he wants to play by opposing immigration. Bannon is also close with the Israeli right wing.
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Re: RE: Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#670 » by nate33 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:14 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
mhd wrote:
nate33 wrote:Indian Americans are probably the best immigrant group of all. Strong families. Good education. No language barrier. No apparent religious or cultural incompatibility. They seem to assimilate into American culture rapidly too. 2nd generation Indian immigrants seem to completely and effortlessly intermingle with "native" Americans socially.

And yet Bannon seems to want to curtail their immigration (See "South Asia", as Indian Americans are a strong component in the tech sector in Silicon Valley). It doesn't make sense to me.

Boom. No coherent immigration strategy.

You can make that judgement as soon as you hear the Trump Administration officially discussing the curtailing Indian immigration. Right now, I see one individual, Bannon, who goes beyond just economic arguments and into cultural arguments for curtailing immigration. It's not policy. It's the opinion of one member of Trump's inner circle, expressed 2 years ago. There is no incoherence.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#671 » by Induveca » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:14 pm

AFM wrote:
Read on Twitter


:lol:



Haha those two actually know each other *very* well for decades via construction and his father's older buildings in Brooklyn. Schumer has been an NYC, NY or US representative since the early 80s or late 70s.

Schubert and Trump are nothing but NYC businessmen/negotiators. I can only imagine the cards they hold against each other over ancient conference room and lunch meeting banter.

Trumps father owned many rental buildings in Schumer's district(s).
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#672 » by dckingsfan » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:15 pm

FAH1223 wrote:Unfortunately, Obama's administration built up the infrastructure for Trump to do this ban. The 7 countries listed were put in place by him and people aside from some activists, the ACLU, and a few journalists didn't call him out on it and the left wing was asleep at the wheel as they have been for 8 years.

First, hope your family is able to travel safely and quickly. What a pain in the butt...

Agreed on the point above. I like not that the policies build on Obama's. The ACLU let it slide by and now they will be the major beneficiaries of their own looking the opposite direction:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/aclu-raises-record-242-million-online-after-trumps-immigration-ban-2017-01-30

I don't know why that bothers me - but it does.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#673 » by nate33 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:22 pm

This is why Pine's prediction of impeachment will not come to pass.

A new Rasmussen poll finds that 57 per cent of Americans support President Trump’s travel ban on people arriving from terror-linked countries, with just 33 per cent opposing the measure.

Asked if they support a temporary 90 day ban on “refugees” from Syria, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen, a clear majority of Americans back Trump, despite widespread media criticism of the executive order.
The poll also found that Americans support a visa block on all individuals from those same countries by a margin of 56 per cent to 32 per cent.

http://www.infowars.com/rasmussen-poll-clear-majority-of-americans-support-trumps-travel-ban/

You can bet that, among Republicans only, support is probably closer to 90%.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#674 » by Induveca » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:23 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:Unfortunately, Obama's administration built up the infrastructure for Trump to do this ban. The 7 countries listed were put in place by him and people aside from some activists, the ACLU, and a few journalists didn't call him out on it and the left wing was asleep at the wheel as they have been for 8 years.

First, hope your family is able to travel safely and quickly. What a pain in the butt...

Agreed on the point above. I like not that the policies build on Obama's. The ACLU let it slide by and now they will be the major beneficiaries of their own looking the opposite direction:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/aclu-raises-record-242-million-online-after-trumps-immigration-ban-2017-01-30

I don't know why that bothers me - but it does.


Most NPOs are predatory. And anyone who has dealt with large NPOs extensively realize this.

I remember visiting United Way for a meeting in the 90s when they were pulling in over a billion a year. Their office building was decent but they had decrepit chairs, scratched up conference room tables and desks and old equipment. At the time barely a dime of each dollar received reached an actual cause. Of course they include salary as a "direct benefit" to their mission, so they attempt to claim 70-80% are spent directly on programs.

The executive I was with, after I commented on the obvious hypocrisy said something like "all these guys have to keep up appearances".

Luckily many tech companies changed this dynamic, plenty of options to help specifics causes and flip the 10/90 to 95/5 by donating directly.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#675 » by nate33 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:29 pm

It's only a matter of time until people like this become the face of the anti-Trump movement. Democrats aren't going to win back middle America with this strategy.



The clip shows anti-Trump protesters pushing and shoving their way into the airport aggressively as they yell “peace! peace!”
A confrontation then quickly arises before one of the anti-Trump radicals punches a man from behind, knocking him out cold. The footage appears to show two anti-Trump protesters taking a swing at the same victim.

While some of the anti-Trump protesters appear shocked at the violence and denounce it, others are heard quite clearly celebrating the attack.

“That’s how you talk to a Nazi! That’s right!” screams one, before gloating, “Your boy got knocked out!”

“Don’t lose the propaganda war!” shouts another, presumably aware that the attack makes anti-Trump demonstrators look bad.

“Wooo! Hunt the Nazis!” screams another man in celebration of the vicious assault.

“That’s right Nazi boy! Where’s your f***ing fuhrer now bitch!” yells another.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#676 » by AFM » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:38 pm

Interesting perspective from the WSJ

By suppressing debate about Islam, nationalism and terror, the left set the stage for today’s backlash.

Politicians across the West are saying the same thing in what is shaping up to be the widest rollback of the freedom of movement in decades.

It’s not just right-wing nationalists like Marine Le Pen in France or Hungary’s Viktor Orbán. Centrists get it, too. Some, like Angela Merkel, are still-reluctant restrictionists. Others, like Theresa May, Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte and French presidential aspirant François Fillon, are more forthright. All have wised up to the popular demand for drastically lower immigration rates.

The irony is that freedom of movement is unraveling because liberals won central debates—about Islamism, social cohesion and nationalism. Rather than give any ground, they accused opponents of being phobic and reactionary. Now liberals are reaping the rewards of those underhanded victories.

Liberals refused to acknowledge the link between Islamist ideology and terrorism. For eight years under President Obama, the U.S. government refused even to say “Islamism,” claiming ludicrously that U.S. service members were going to war against “violent extremism.” Voters could read and hear about jihadists offering up their actions to Allah before opening automatic fire on shoppers and blasphemous cartoonists.

The left also largely “won” the debate over Muslim integration. For too many liberals, every Islamist atrocity was cause to fret about an “Islamophobic” backlash. When a jihadist would go boom somewhere, pre-emptive hashtags expressing solidarity with threatened Muslims were never far behind.

But liberals don’t bother nearly as much about the pathologies in Muslim communities, and in Islamic civilization itself, that were producing so much carnage. Some would sooner abandon their own feminist and gay-rights orthodoxies than criticize what imams in Paris and London suburbs were telling their congregations.

liberal writers sneered at the Somali-born human-rights activist Ayaan Hirsi Ali as an “Enlightenment fundamentalist.” Brandeis disinvited her to speak on campus in 2014. The Southern Poverty Law Center last year branded her an “extremist,” along with the counterterror campaigner Maajid Nawaz.

Liberals thus empowered the most illiberal elements of Muslim communities while marginalizing reformers. Is it any wonder that many voters came to see Muslims as sources of danger and social incohesion?

Liberals, finally, “won” the debate over nationalism. In Europe especially and the U.S. to a lesser extent, they treated nationalism and the West’s Judeo-Christian heritage as relics of a dark past. For European Union leaders, the ideal political community was an ever-expanding set of legal procedures, commercial links and politically correct norms. Citizens could fill in the blanks with whatever cultural content they preferred—preferably “Europe” itself.

Judging by their breathless editorials and social-media outbursts, leading liberals still blame this reversal in political fortunes on a paroxysm of collective fear and hatred, the forces they’ve always sought to banish. Yet the main culprits for the popular revolt against liberalism are liberals themselves.



http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-liberals-killed-the-freedom-of-movement-1485464612
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#677 » by AFM » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:40 pm

I read the WSJ because it makes me feel like a wise industrial tycoon. Anyone know what pork rinds are trading at today?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#678 » by dckingsfan » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:46 pm

AFM wrote:I read the WSJ because it makes me feel like a wise industrial tycoon. Anyone know what pork rinds are trading at today?

I read them too - and the NY Times. I stopped getting the WSP before Bezos bought them. I may re-subscribe as their content has a different perspective now (although the details still tend to be scant).

I worry that the NY Times and WSJ have laid off too many editors (WSP has laid off a ton of their most knowledgeable reporters and editors).

The 4th Estate is in shambles.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#679 » by FAH1223 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:53 pm

AFM wrote:Interesting perspective from the WSJ

By suppressing debate about Islam, nationalism and terror, the left set the stage for today’s backlash.

Politicians across the West are saying the same thing in what is shaping up to be the widest rollback of the freedom of movement in decades.

It’s not just right-wing nationalists like Marine Le Pen in France or Hungary’s Viktor Orbán. Centrists get it, too. Some, like Angela Merkel, are still-reluctant restrictionists. Others, like Theresa May, Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte and French presidential aspirant François Fillon, are more forthright. All have wised up to the popular demand for drastically lower immigration rates.

The irony is that freedom of movement is unraveling because liberals won central debates—about Islamism, social cohesion and nationalism. Rather than give any ground, they accused opponents of being phobic and reactionary. Now liberals are reaping the rewards of those underhanded victories.

Liberals refused to acknowledge the link between Islamist ideology and terrorism. For eight years under President Obama, the U.S. government refused even to say “Islamism,” claiming ludicrously that U.S. service members were going to war against “violent extremism.” Voters could read and hear about jihadists offering up their actions to Allah before opening automatic fire on shoppers and blasphemous cartoonists.

The left also largely “won” the debate over Muslim integration. For too many liberals, every Islamist atrocity was cause to fret about an “Islamophobic” backlash. When a jihadist would go boom somewhere, pre-emptive hashtags expressing solidarity with threatened Muslims were never far behind.

But liberals don’t bother nearly as much about the pathologies in Muslim communities, and in Islamic civilization itself, that were producing so much carnage. Some would sooner abandon their own feminist and gay-rights orthodoxies than criticize what imams in Paris and London suburbs were telling their congregations.

liberal writers sneered at the Somali-born human-rights activist Ayaan Hirsi Ali as an “Enlightenment fundamentalist.” Brandeis disinvited her to speak on campus in 2014. The Southern Poverty Law Center last year branded her an “extremist,” along with the counterterror campaigner Maajid Nawaz.

Liberals thus empowered the most illiberal elements of Muslim communities while marginalizing reformers. Is it any wonder that many voters came to see Muslims as sources of danger and social incohesion?

Liberals, finally, “won” the debate over nationalism. In Europe especially and the U.S. to a lesser extent, they treated nationalism and the West’s Judeo-Christian heritage as relics of a dark past. For European Union leaders, the ideal political community was an ever-expanding set of legal procedures, commercial links and politically correct norms. Citizens could fill in the blanks with whatever cultural content they preferred—preferably “Europe” itself.

Judging by their breathless editorials and social-media outbursts, leading liberals still blame this reversal in political fortunes on a paroxysm of collective fear and hatred, the forces they’ve always sought to banish. Yet the main culprits for the popular revolt against liberalism are liberals themselves.



http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-liberals-killed-the-freedom-of-movement-1485464612


Here's the problem though and the left lose a huge opportunity in 2008-2009.

The anxiety citizens around the industrial world fear is justified. About jobs, wages, opportunity. But the issue isn't only with illegal immigration.

The issue is the whole neoliberal economic set up. The bankers got the profits from the bailouts the central banks did. Not the people. The people are paying for the corporate welfare that's been put in place. The people are getting ripped off... and especially in the US where our health system bankrupts families.

The anxiety people are feeling isn't left or right. The issue is that anxiety is built up into wedge issues of racism, abortion, etc.

Yes, parts of the Muslim world have issues with terrorism. But why are the places where these terrorist outfits not suffering from the ban? Who finances the extremist groups in Syria? Countries in the Gulf region i.e. Saudi and Qatar who primed the pump. Governments in the West no matter who is in control are blind to this reality and will not call out these countries or put in the sanctions they put on Iran on these nations.

Where have most of the ISIS fighters come from? Tunisia right now.

The guys who did 9/11 could come into the USA right now based on Trump's executive action.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#680 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:55 pm

WSJ blames everything on liberals?!?!?! I'm SHOCKED
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