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The TJ Warren Thread!

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GMATCallahan
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Post#521 » by GMATCallahan » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:37 pm

Spoiler:
GMATCallahan wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:I think the problem with Warren has been in large part to his injury, and the effects that had on his game before and after he sat. I don't know if you can look at where his TS% was a a snapshot in time, like 10 or 11 games into the season, but I thought he came out well.


His True Shooting Percentage before the injury was .517.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/warretj01/gamelog-advanced/2017/#88-100-sum:pgl_advanced

That figure is much better than the .466 that he has since shown (and which will rise, I am sure), but it is still pretty inefficient, especially for a guy who is a scorer first and foremost and offers marginal contributions in other areas. The .517 mark is also down substantially from the .550 that he averaged over his first two seasons.

bwgood77 wrote:I guess the biggest dilemma with Warren is going to be whether or not he can get back to that long range shooting % of 40% from last year (on low volume) and to start out this year. The increased # of 3s seem to really impact his TS% because it isn't his strength.


You never know, but the .400 may well have been fluky. Warren is not a natural shooter, and he attempted 1.5 threes in 47 games last year—for a total of 70 attempts. You probably need at least twice that many attempts to receive a better feel for his ability, especially for someone who is not an especially talented shooter where you can just say, "Hey, if he takes a couple steps back and practices from that range, he can bury threes, too," which is what happened with Channing Frye when he came to Phoenix without a three-point resume or (as I have discussed previously) Kevin Johnson in '96-'97, when he finished third in the NBA in three-point field goal percentage at .441 (89-202, 2.9 FGA). The difference is that those guys could really shoot, even if they had not previously attempted many threes. Warren, conversely, is much more questionable in that regard.

Cedric Ceballos, like Warren a scoring small forward who was not a natural jump shooter, actually shot .397 on threes in 2.5 attempts per contest over 58 games (146 total attempts) with the Lakers in '94-'95, including 10-15 three-point shooting in two games in Phoenix that year.

http://www.databasebasketball.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1994&b=19941230&tm=PHO

http://www.databasebasketball.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1994&b=19950415&tm=PHO

But he never shot anything like that percentage over a significant sample in any other season of his career, not even during the next two years when the three-point line remained at the shorter distance.

bwgood77 wrote:So if he doesn't become an adequate 3 pt shooter, are you ok with having him focus on a midrange game and just doing what he does best, and perhaps being a 6th man type of scorer or make sure he only plays in lineups with 4 3 pt shooters (perhaps in time with two of Dudley/Bender/Chriss) playing the 4/5 spots. Maybe stagger Warren with Len to some extent.


If he cannot hit threes at a solid percentage, Warren can still be effective even as a starting small forward in a traditional lineup. At times, you will want smaller lineups with more floor spacing, especially late in games, but Warren can be dangerous off the ball as a cutter and especially a runner in the open floor. I hate to see someone shoot threes just for the sake of shooting threes. If you are not hitting them, do not waste shots on them and instead do what you do best to maximize your efficiency. In the NBA, players off the ball (even shooters) used to keep defenders occupied through movement more than spacing. This factor made pick-and-rolls and post play more intricate and sometimes complex (like driving on stick rather than automatic), but it also created more diversity in the game, so that there was a role for certain players beyond standing in a corner.

At times, you will want more spacing and perimeter shooting regardless, but those times will usually be in the fourth quarter. So when the Suns won the most games in the NBA in '92-'93, Ceballos would often start (unless Richard Dumas, a better shooter yet not a three-point shooter, was starting), but come crunch time, Phoenix would play Danny Ainge and Dan Majerle simultaneously to create more floor spacing and perimeter shooting.

bwgood77 wrote:I guess somewhat more troubling, is the drop off in his 2pt fg%, but perhaps this also comes down to him being focused on more 3s, and when those are misses, are take him out of his game, or get into his head, they may impact how well he shoots from other areas on the floor.


The decline in two-point field goal percentage probably reflects Warren shooting more two-point jumpers—more outside two-point jumpers—and also more self-created shots. The question regarding his efficiency may be how efficient he can be on runners and floaters in traffic or half-court situations. If he can hit those at a high percentage, the outside jumpers (two-pointers or three-pointers) become less vital.



Continuing on Warren, my belief is that for him to be most effective and efficient, most of his touches need to be brief—they can be frequent, but they need to be brief, and the briefer the better. That is how Shawn Marion and Amar’e Stoudemire, for instance, improved their efficiency by playing with Steve Nash. Warren possesses better ball-handling ability than either of those players, but it is not his strength and, like Marion, his shooting form is somewhat awkward. Like Marion, Warren has this off-the-dribble floater that is fairly erratic, especially in traffic. But like Marion, Warren can excel as a runner and a cutter. Although he is not an explosive leaper, he possesses excellent body control, allowing him to receive a pass at high speeds and then hang in the air to square his shoulders and finish smoothly at the basket. Thus, despite being a below-the-rim player, Warren is an outstanding finisher. But although he shows flashes here and there, he is inefficient as a guy who creates his own offense. The longer his touches, and the more that he dribbles, the less effective that he becomes—he may enjoy a few good possessions in that regard in one game, like in Denver, but he will struggle to sustain that kind of play, hence his performance last night at home versus the Nuggets. He is too inconsistent in that area, and on a good team, Warren would rarely create his own offense.

And unfortunately, “analytics” may actually be diminishing Warren’s efficiency. The emphasis on the three-point shot has left Warren floating around the perimeter, and standing in the corner, too often. He should be in constant motion, especially along the baseline, cutting in the direction of the basket more than curling or floating outside. “Analytics” emphasizes the three-point shot, but here we may be seeing the danger of allowing “analytics” to generically predetermine a player rather than accounting for that player’s idiosyncrasies and individual nature. Indeed, “analytics” should be used to measure a player’s strengths and weaknesses and then discipline him in order to maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses, not to preset the player as if playing a video game or running some computer simulation. When the Suns won a league-best 62 games in ’92-’93, Cedric Ceballos led the league in field goal percentage at .576 (and posted a .612 True Shooting Percentage, sixth in the NBA); he did not accomplish that feat by floating on the perimeter, standing in the corner, shooting threes (he shot 0-2 on threes in 74 games that season), shooting many jumpers in general, or creating his own offense. Instead, he played to his strengths.

Now, one might say, “Yeah, but you want to space the floor and keep off-ball defenders honest,” but as I noted earlier, you can punish off-ball defenders by movement. This quotation from Charles Barkley in 2003, reflecting on the Suns’ NBA Finals team from ten years earlier, is revealing:

Cedric Ceballos all year was the player who never got the credit he deserved. For me, he was a godsend. He is going to get open. I loved passing to him out of double teams.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040416063825/http://www.nba.com/suns/history/azcentral_barkley_030622.html


Sure, concepts and contexts change, and today’s stars are accustomed to wide spacing, sideline-to-sideline. But Warren is almost being wasted right now. Two years ago, as a rookie, he shot .560 from the field on two-point field goal attempts, because he primarily shot the ball off fast break runs and off cuts—his strong suits. Now he is shooting .487 on two-point field goal attempts, which would be acceptable if he constituted a respectable three-point shooter or if he reached the free throw line a lot. Instead, he is shooting a pathetic .271 on threes in 1.7 attempts per game. He rarely reaches the free throw line (2.2 attempts per game), his assists-to-turnover ratio has not really improved, Warren is basically a “nothing” defender (even if he has improved from last year), and his rebounding is very modest, especially for a forward. When Phoenix used Warren as a “stretch four” down the stretch on Thursday night in Denver, with Chandler at center, the Nuggets ate the Suns alive on the boards. Thus, to be worthy of a significant role, he needs to be a hyper-efficient scorer. How valuable would Marion, for instance, have been if he had constituted a lackluster rebounder and defender who had the ball in his hands too often? And Ceballos, while not an elite rebounder like Marion, was a very good rebounder for a small forward, so he too made significant contributions in another area of the game. Warren is not like that—he is soft both as a defender and a rebounder, and he is a forgettable passer.

Of course, he is still young with room to improve, but he needs to play to his strengths, not according to a generic mold predetermined by broad-based “analytics.” For T.J. Warren shooting .457 from the field with a .505 True Shooting Percentage is simply not a valuable basketball player—and broad-based “analytics” are lowering those rates and his value.

I hope that Phoenix’s future starting front court will feature Bender and Chriss at forward, flanking Len at center. Indeed, there is a reason why I listed Warren behind Booker, Chriss, Bender, Len, and even Ulis in terms of players that I would prioritize for Phoenix moving forward. That is not to say that I do not want Warren on the team in the future, but the Suns need more size and length to improve defensively and on the glass. Chriss and Bender offer that potential, and they are better natural shooters—and three-point shooters—than Warren, anyway. One way or the other, Phoenix needs to recalibrate the way that Warren plays and resist turning him into something that he is not. He needs to be in constant motion off the basketball, or else he is about as valuable as Josh Childress was to the Suns. Indeed, the analogy right now for Warren is Childress—I still find the preposterous analogies to James Worthy and Clyde Drexler that some posters were once making to be amusing.

Now, Warren can be better than Childress, but not in his current mold.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#522 » by sleepyvato » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:03 pm

Warren went from being a core player for the Suns to being a future MVP of the Chinese league real quick. It's very sad to see how much he has regressed after the injury.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#523 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:32 pm

sleepyvato wrote:Warren went from being a core player for the Suns to being a future MVP of the Chinese league real quick. It's very sad to see how much he has regressed after the injury.

Most frustrating is not knowing the details of the injury... :banghead:
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#524 » by jcsunsfan » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:44 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
sleepyvato wrote:Warren went from being a core player for the Suns to being a future MVP of the Chinese league real quick. It's very sad to see how much he has regressed after the injury.

Most frustrating is not knowing the details of the injury... :banghead:


What if it was more of a psychological thing?
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#525 » by Saberestar » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:25 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
sleepyvato wrote:Warren went from being a core player for the Suns to being a future MVP of the Chinese league real quick. It's very sad to see how much he has regressed after the injury.

Most frustrating is not knowing the details of the injury... :banghead:


What if it was more of a psychological thing?

Around four days in a hospital for a psychological thing? I do not think so.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#526 » by RaisingArizona » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:30 pm

He went from our best player to trade fodder in months. Pretty remarkable.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#527 » by Saberestar » Wed Feb 8, 2017 1:21 am

Warren has played 33+ minutes in three straight games, averaging 17.0 points, 5.7 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 1.0 block and 1.3 steals in that span.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/2360/tj-warren

Hopefully he is FINALLY back.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#528 » by Mulhollanddrive » Wed Feb 8, 2017 2:27 am

If there are any health concerns, Warren might take his extension this year, hard to pass up $52m ($13 / 4) if there's any doubt on health, it'd be all covered by medical insurance, so win-win for us.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#529 » by GlenRiceARoni » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:40 pm

RIP GIRLFRIEND

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#530 » by Fo-Real » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:53 pm

GlenRiceARoni wrote:RIP GIRLFRIEND

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit


trying to wrap my head around why this just popped up in the TJ Warren thread?
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#531 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:16 am

I'm so confused...
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#532 » by Fo-Real » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:28 am

Some people like cucumbers pickled!
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#533 » by Fo-Real » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:29 am

The human head weighs 8 lbs.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#534 » by Fo-Real » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:29 am

I can go full random nothingness too!
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#535 » by GlenRiceARoni » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:32 am

Because basketball is TONY WARREN JUNIORS only love


Thats why hes always sayin RIP GIRLFRIEND

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#536 » by Fo-Real » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:23 pm

Still....... nevermind.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#537 » by jcsunsfan » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:58 pm

Tj's girlfriend died?!!!!


(this is how crazy rumors get started)
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#538 » by Fo-Real » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:20 pm

Well, he sucks at relationships!!!!
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#539 » by ATTL » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:45 pm

Taylor swift sucks at relationships too.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#540 » by thamadkant » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:58 pm

ATTL wrote:Taylor swift sucks at relationships too.



The good suck or the bad one?

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