Butler trade rumor - KC Johnson update: pg 63

[Repeat 3-peat]

For as strong as this next draft is suppose to be, I rarely hear anything about these guys coming out next year. You always hear about the big names like Embiid, Wiggins, Parker, KAT, Simmons etc. just as recent examples.

I'm wondering if this draft is just being over hyped.

Sadly we won't know until they play.

I'm still waiting on Wiggins to become the next TMac, or Parker to be the next Melo...All I see are guys that can score. but doesn't do anything else.

Btw, I wouldn't accept a trade for Butler if ends up as Dennis Smith, I like him but I doubt he'll ever get to the level of Butler. I want to be sure it's the #1 overall pick. And how the lottery goes, that's not guaranteed

[chrispatrick]

This situation worries me because NYK is trying to unload Melo and Boston is the obvious trade partner so I could just see our FO freak out thinking they are going to lose out. Add into it that I think Gar is a horrible GM and I just feel like we're walking into a buzzsaw here. Ainge will just play us and the Knicks off of each other till he gets the offer he wants.

That's a good point about the Knicks, so the Bulls need to avoid that game. Melo is a trash asset compared to Butler. But I could understand the Celtics going that route knowing that Phil would trade him for a lot less than the Bulls would trade Butler. Makes some sense for Ainge.

So the Bulls can't play that game. To me Butler has played at such a high level that now two options are perfectly reasonable.

1. If Boston, or someone else but really only Boston appears to have the assets, will give it up to the tune of at the absolute minimum 2017 Nets pick, Brown and players, trade Butler and start over.

2. If the Bulls have to compromise, keep Butler, take a run at 2017 free agency.

There is no definitive "must keep Butler" or "must trade Butler" position that holds up to real scrutiny. It's a very, very close call that will be decided by context.

Minny has the assets too. Boston and Minnesota have been the teams my money has been on if they trade him

I'd hate to deal with Minnesota because I'm of the opinion that to win on a trade, you need the hope of getting a player who can one day outperform a max contract like Butler does now. Even if you get LaVine and Wiggins (and Minnesota fans wouldn't want to do it because while Butler would do more for them than those 2 for the next couple years, the T-Wolves are in no rush to contend), I think that's a bad deal for the Bulls because in a couple years, you have to pay both of these guys the max and I'm not sure even then they'll collectively impact winning as much as Butler does. You'd be paying those collectively over $50mm a year and if they can't bring the Wolves to mediocrity with Towns, they're going to have to make very significant improvement to make the Bulls even average. Certainly plausible, but unlikely.

Obviously, if you see LaVine or Wiggins as players who will one day be capable of outperforming a max contract, then you would disagree with my statement. I think they're both the kind of guys who are going to get max deals but not make huge impacts on the win/loss column.

If forced to deal Butler, I'd take the unknown of the Brooklyn picks, which I think gives you a better chance of landing a guy who will one day outperform a max deal. Based solely on opinion, I'd say whoever you get with 2 Brooklyn picks has maybe a 30ish percent chance of outperforming a max deal on their 2nd contract whereas I have a really hard time envisioning LaVine or Wiggins ever being that good.

[AirP.]

It's odd... a few years ago Chicago had the the chance to sign a star/superstar in Melo and yet they tried to get him to take less to sign in Chicago(16 a year I believe) and didn't seem to make any attempt to move salary to offer him more. He was just 3 years older then Butler is now... yet Butler's price is just incredibly high.

Even if you think Butler is a better player now then Melo at 29/30, it's not this drastic for what Chicago offereed for Melo at the time vs what they're asking for Butler.

[Mech Engineer]

It's odd... a few years ago Chicago had the the chance to sign a star/superstar in Melo and yet they tried to get him to take less to sign in Chicago(16 a year I believe) and didn't seem to make any attempt to move salary to offer him more. He was just 3 years older then Butler is now... yet Butler's price is just incredibly high.

Even if you think Butler is a better player now then Melo at 29/30, it's not this drastic for what Chicago offereed for Melo at the time vs what they're asking for Butler.

There's a huge difference between Melo at 29 or even 27 compared to Jimmy. The build-around Melo was not even an option at 27/28(except for some Melo fans).

Melo is fool's gold. His stats/rankings might show he is a top 25/30 player. But, he sucks as a 2-way player and is way too disruptive as a player. The only thing he might have over Jimmy is probably his jump-shot and some soft size.

The value of a Jimmy Butler(top 10-12 2-way player) is not just double that of a Melo..it is much more than that.

[jnrjr79]

It's odd... a few years ago Chicago had the the chance to sign a star/superstar in Melo and yet they tried to get him to take less to sign in Chicago(16 a year I believe) and didn't seem to make any attempt to move salary to offer him more. He was just 3 years older then Butler is now... yet Butler's price is just incredibly high.

Even if you think Butler is a better player now then Melo at 29/30, it's not this drastic for what Chicago offereed for Melo at the time vs what they're asking for Butler.

My recollection of the Melo dealings was that in order to open up salary for him, they'd have to move Taj, and that there was some conversation about whether they would do that (making the team worse) or whether Melo would want Taj to stay and just sign within the existing cap space on a 2-year deal, allowing the Bulls to give him the full max in what would be this offseason (which now would look like a foolish thing to do).

[AirP.]

I'd hate to deal with Minnesota because I'm of the opinion that to win on a trade, you need the hope of getting a player who can one day outperform a max contract like Butler does now. Even if you get LaVine and Wiggins (and Minnesota fans wouldn't want to do it because while Butler would do more for them than those 2 for the next couple years, the T-Wolves are in no rush to contend), I think that's a bad deal for the Bulls because in a couple years, you have to pay both of these guys the max and I'm not sure even then they'll collectively impact winning as much as Butler does. You'd be paying those collectively over $50mm a year and if they can't bring the Wolves to mediocrity with Towns, they're going to have to make very significant improvement to make the Bulls even average. Certainly plausible, but unlikely.

Obviously, if you see LaVine or Wiggins as players who will one day be capable of outperforming a max contract, then you would disagree with my statement. I think they're both the kind of guys who are going to get max deals but not make huge impacts on the win/loss column.

If forced to deal Butler, I'd take the unknown of the Brooklyn picks, which I think gives you a better chance of landing a guy who will one day outperform a max deal. Based solely on opinion, I'd say whoever you get with 2 Brooklyn picks has maybe a 30ish percent chance of outperforming a max deal on their 2nd contract whereas I have a really hard time envisioning LaVine or Wiggins ever being that good.

Well, they are both 6 years younger then Jimmy and this year Wiggins at age 21 is currently outscoring Butler in every year of his career but this current one and he's only outscoring Wiggins by 2.4 points per game. I'd have to say at this point Wiggins has more potential that hasn't been met then Butler and even if Wiggins only gets a little better, he's going to be in a good number of all-star games. Also of course, the window is way larger to build a contender with Wiggins then Butler.

I think the ship has sailed with Minnesota though. 1 year of prime Jimmy Butler is a huge thing to waste not to mention 1 more year closer to him getting a new max deal.

[Mech Engineer]

It's odd... a few years ago Chicago had the the chance to sign a star/superstar in Melo and yet they tried to get him to take less to sign in Chicago(16 a year I believe) and didn't seem to make any attempt to move salary to offer him more. He was just 3 years older then Butler is now... yet Butler's price is just incredibly high.

Even if you think Butler is a better player now then Melo at 29/30, it's not this drastic for what Chicago offereed for Melo at the time vs what they're asking for Butler.

My recollection of the Melo dealings was that in order to open up salary for him, they'd have to move Taj, and that there was some conversation about whether they would do that (making the team worse) or whether Melo would want Taj to stay and just sign within the existing cap space on a 2-year deal, allowing the Bulls to give him the full max in what would be this offseason (which now would look like a foolish thing to do).

As much as we blame GarPax, you have to give kudos to them on the Melo evaluation when many Bulls fans would have moved Taj for crap to give Melo a big deal. They knew that Melo's game wouldn't work on a thin team and he is more of a liability but provides some positive things on the offensive end. He was good as a replacement for Boozer's role and that's about it. Anything more...it's just fantasy based on the name "Melo" than the player "Melo".

[AirP.]

It's odd... a few years ago Chicago had the the chance to sign a star/superstar in Melo and yet they tried to get him to take less to sign in Chicago(16 a year I believe) and didn't seem to make any attempt to move salary to offer him more. He was just 3 years older then Butler is now... yet Butler's price is just incredibly high.

Even if you think Butler is a better player now then Melo at 29/30, it's not this drastic for what Chicago offereed for Melo at the time vs what they're asking for Butler.

My recollection of the Melo dealings was that in order to open up salary for him, they'd have to move Taj, and that there was some conversation about whether they would do that (making the team worse) or whether Melo would want Taj to stay and just sign within the existing cap space on a 2-year deal, allowing the Bulls to give him the full max in what would be this offseason (which now would look like a foolish thing to do).

I don't know... Pau Gasol may have taken even less to play with Chicago plus the odds of signing some other defensive PF or trade a future asset for one, McDermott probably had some value still at that point to trade... you have to sometimes sacrifice the future to strengthen a championship run.

[MC3]

It's odd... a few years ago Chicago had the the chance to sign a star/superstar in Melo and yet they tried to get him to take less to sign in Chicago(16 a year I believe) and didn't seem to make any attempt to move salary to offer him more. He was just 3 years older then Butler is now... yet Butler's price is just incredibly high.

Even if you think Butler is a better player now then Melo at 29/30, it's not this drastic for what Chicago offereed for Melo at the time vs what they're asking for Butler.

My recollection of the Melo dealings was that in order to open up salary for him, they'd have to move Taj, and that there was some conversation about whether they would do that (making the team worse) or whether Melo would want Taj to stay and just sign within the existing cap space on a 2-year deal, allowing the Bulls to give him the full max in what would be this offseason (which now would look like a foolish thing to do).

As much as we blame GarPax, you have to give kudos to them on the Melo evaluation when many Bulls fans would have moved Taj for crap to give Melo a big deal. They knew that Melo's game wouldn't work on a thin team and he is more of a liability but provides some positive things on the offensive end. He was good as a replacement for Boozer's role and that's about it. Anything more...it's just fantasy based on the name "Melo" than the player "Melo".

Melo was needed when Bulls didnt had anything on offensive end beside post ACL Rose. Jimmy didnt had breakout till preseason with Hawks. So basically Bulls had zero scoring on wing positions.

[greenl]

I'd have to say at this point Wiggins has more potential that hasn't been met then Butler and even if Wiggins only gets a little better, he's going to be in a good number of all-star games. Also of course, the window is way larger to build a contender with Wiggins then Butler.
.

Disagree here. I don't think Wiggins ever sniffs the All Star game. If Minnesota is smart- they'll move him for something of value before the rest of the league catches on- if they haven't already.

[AirP.]

It's odd... a few years ago Chicago had the the chance to sign a star/superstar in Melo and yet they tried to get him to take less to sign in Chicago(16 a year I believe) and didn't seem to make any attempt to move salary to offer him more. He was just 3 years older then Butler is now... yet Butler's price is just incredibly high.

Even if you think Butler is a better player now then Melo at 29/30, it's not this drastic for what Chicago offereed for Melo at the time vs what they're asking for Butler.

My recollection of the Melo dealings was that in order to open up salary for him, they'd have to move Taj, and that there was some conversation about whether they would do that (making the team worse) or whether Melo would want Taj to stay and just sign within the existing cap space on a 2-year deal, allowing the Bulls to give him the full max in what would be this offseason (which now would look like a foolish thing to do).

As much as we blame GarPax, you have to give kudos to them on the Melo evaluation when many Bulls fans would have moved Taj for crap to give Melo a big deal. They knew that Melo's game wouldn't work on a thin team and he is more of a liability but provides some positive things on the offensive end. He was good as a replacement for Boozer's role and that's about it. Anything more...it's just fantasy based on the name "Melo" than the player "Melo".

Well, at least we know what happened without that trade, it's gotten Chicago to where they are now, a roster void of talent and basically 1 good asset and a couple of ok assets.

Hate Melo all you want, I'm not a fan, but in the NBA, on that roster he would have worked well under Thibs which might be why they didn't pursue him as much as they should.

[Mech Engineer]

My recollection of the Melo dealings was that in order to open up salary for him, they'd have to move Taj, and that there was some conversation about whether they would do that (making the team worse) or whether Melo would want Taj to stay and just sign within the existing cap space on a 2-year deal, allowing the Bulls to give him the full max in what would be this offseason (which now would look like a foolish thing to do).

As much as we blame GarPax, you have to give kudos to them on the Melo evaluation when many Bulls fans would have moved Taj for crap to give Melo a big deal. They knew that Melo's game wouldn't work on a thin team and he is more of a liability but provides some positive things on the offensive end. He was good as a replacement for Boozer's role and that's about it. Anything more...it's just fantasy based on the name "Melo" than the player "Melo".

Well, at least we know what happened without that trade, it's gotten Chicago to where they are now, a roster void of talent and basically 1 good asset and a couple of ok assets.

Hate Melo all you want, I'm not a fan, but in the NBA, on that roster he would have worked well under Thibs which might be why they didn't pursue him as much as they should.

Those are two different issues. You are connecting their bad draft picks, other bad decisions to Melo's decision. Melo is fool's gold and more dangerous because of his big name.

He was a glorified role player at that time and the worst role players are the ones who are paid too much as a free agent from another team. But, much worse are the ones who are paid too much and also have a big name. They will not adjust their games to anyone while hurting better players on the team.

I like Melo mentally now than in 2014. He has been humbled enough and hopefully knows his place on a contender and might be more helpful now. It is not like he was playing defense to worry about a decline.

[BuffaloBull]

My recollection of the Melo dealings was that in order to open up salary for him, they'd have to move Taj, and that there was some conversation about whether they would do that (making the team worse) or whether Melo would want Taj to stay and just sign within the existing cap space on a 2-year deal, allowing the Bulls to give him the full max in what would be this offseason (which now would look like a foolish thing to do).

As much as we blame GarPax, you have to give kudos to them on the Melo evaluation when many Bulls fans would have moved Taj for crap to give Melo a big deal. They knew that Melo's game wouldn't work on a thin team and he is more of a liability but provides some positive things on the offensive end. He was good as a replacement for Boozer's role and that's about it. Anything more...it's just fantasy based on the name "Melo" than the player "Melo".

Well, at least we know what happened without that trade, it's gotten Chicago to where they are now, a roster void of talent and basically 1 good asset and a couple of ok assets.

Hate Melo all you want, I'm not a fan, but in the NBA, on that roster he would have worked well under Thibs which might be why they didn't pursue him as much as they should.

The Melo deal never got to the point the Bulls needed it to in order to make the final moves. Had Melo said, "Ok, I want to go to the Bulls", then you have to figure what they really would have done was a sign and trade with NYK or the requisite salary dump to get to the number it would have taken to bring Melo in. Sort of similar to how GS's money to get Durant was contingent on moving Bogut. Melo decided to take NYC's money (which was always going to be the highest $ wise) and that was that.

[jnrjr79]

It's odd... a few years ago Chicago had the the chance to sign a star/superstar in Melo and yet they tried to get him to take less to sign in Chicago(16 a year I believe) and didn't seem to make any attempt to move salary to offer him more. He was just 3 years older then Butler is now... yet Butler's price is just incredibly high.

Even if you think Butler is a better player now then Melo at 29/30, it's not this drastic for what Chicago offereed for Melo at the time vs what they're asking for Butler.

My recollection of the Melo dealings was that in order to open up salary for him, they'd have to move Taj, and that there was some conversation about whether they would do that (making the team worse) or whether Melo would want Taj to stay and just sign within the existing cap space on a 2-year deal, allowing the Bulls to give him the full max in what would be this offseason (which now would look like a foolish thing to do).

I don't know... Pau Gasol may have taken even less to play with Chicago plus the odds of signing some other defensive PF or trade a future asset for one, McDermott probably had some value still at that point to trade... you have to sometimes sacrifice the future to strengthen a championship run.

1. It's pretty ridiculous to speculate Gasol would've taken less than the $7M he ultimately took. I do recall there being chatter that he wasn't going to sign for the MLE.

2. It's unclear to me that Melo would've actually strengthened a championship run.

[AirP.]

I'd have to say at this point Wiggins has more potential that hasn't been met then Butler and even if Wiggins only gets a little better, he's going to be in a good number of all-star games. Also of course, the window is way larger to build a contender with Wiggins then Butler.
.

Disagree here. I don't think Wiggins ever sniffs the All Star game. If Minnesota is smart- they'll move him for something of value before the rest of the league catches on- if they haven't already.

Interesting and here I thought that with experience in the NBA and some off seasons to work on other aspects of his game he could improve. He's just fooling everyone with his improved 3 point shot this year.

I see Thibs putting Wiggins in the same situations as Butler(his 3rd year) before he got way better offensively. Basically telling the young player that he has faith in him offensively and with that, a reason to really work on their offensive game in the off season. Yes I believe a coach can help push a player a certain direction to have them work on that aspect of their game which is why I absolutely hate Mirotic being given the green light from Hoiberg from anywhere behind the arc.

[AirP.]

My recollection of the Melo dealings was that in order to open up salary for him, they'd have to move Taj, and that there was some conversation about whether they would do that (making the team worse) or whether Melo would want Taj to stay and just sign within the existing cap space on a 2-year deal, allowing the Bulls to give him the full max in what would be this offseason (which now would look like a foolish thing to do).

I don't know... Pau Gasol may have taken even less to play with Chicago plus the odds of signing some other defensive PF or trade a future asset for one, McDermott probably had some value still at that point to trade... you have to sometimes sacrifice the future to strengthen a championship run.

1. It's pretty ridiculous to speculate Gasol would've taken less than the $7M he ultimately took. I do recall there being chatter that he wasn't going to sign for the MLE.

2. It's unclear to me that Melo would've actually strengthened a championship run.

1. Not ridiculous, he had been considering taking less with San Antonio at the time, adding Melo may have made the decision to take less easier.
2. Maybe it's unclear to you but I kinda think Thibs would have made things work plus... look where Chicago is now, would they really be that worse off stuck with Butler, Melo and Rose then Butler, Wade and Rondo? I kinda think they'd be doing better and have had a core to build the rest of the team around even if you were on from Rose next year.

[greenl]

I'd have to say at this point Wiggins has more potential that hasn't been met then Butler and even if Wiggins only gets a little better, he's going to be in a good number of all-star games. Also of course, the window is way larger to build a contender with Wiggins then Butler.
.

Disagree here. I don't think Wiggins ever sniffs the All Star game. If Minnesota is smart- they'll move him for something of value before the rest of the league catches on- if they haven't already.

Interesting and here I thought that with experience in the NBA and some off seasons to work on other aspects of his game he could improve. He's just fooling everyone with his improved 3 point shot this year.
.

I could barely grasp the sarcasm in this post- lay it on a bit thicker next time.

I see Wiggins as inefficient, empty calories- 22 points on 18 FGA per game. Great athlete. Scores with middling efficiency but poor at everything else. Poor facilitator and poor defender. Could he improve enough to escape the gravitational pull of average NBA player? Sure. Will he ever be a top 10 player? Odds are long against it.

[Mech Engineer]

I don't know... Pau Gasol may have taken even less to play with Chicago plus the odds of signing some other defensive PF or trade a future asset for one, McDermott probably had some value still at that point to trade... you have to sometimes sacrifice the future to strengthen a championship run.

1. It's pretty ridiculous to speculate Gasol would've taken less than the $7M he ultimately took. I do recall there being chatter that he wasn't going to sign for the MLE.

2. It's unclear to me that Melo would've actually strengthened a championship run.

1. Not ridiculous, he had been considering taking less with San Antonio at the time, adding Melo may have made the decision to take less easier.
2. Maybe it's unclear to you but I kinda think Thibs would have made things work plus... look where Chicago is now, would they really be that worse off stuck with Butler, Melo and Rose then Butler, Wade and Rondo? I kinda think they'd be doing better and have had a core to build the rest of the team around even if you were on from Rose next year.

We think a Jimmy/Wade/Rondo is a disruptive/mis-fit trio. Rose, Melo and Butler would be a million times worse. I can't even imagine Melo and Rose letting Jimmy grow and if what we have now is un-watchable basketball, that would be worse(no words).

[DroseReturnChi]

Disagree here. I don't think Wiggins ever sniffs the All Star game. If Minnesota is smart- they'll move him for something of value before the rest of the league catches on- if they haven't already.

Interesting and here I thought that with experience in the NBA and some off seasons to work on other aspects of his game he could improve. He's just fooling everyone with his improved 3 point shot this year.
.

I could barely grasp the sarcasm in this post- lay it on a bit thicker next time.

I see Wiggins as inefficient, empty calories- 22 points on 18 FGA per game. Great athlete. Scores with middling efficiency but poor at everything else. Poor facilitator and poor defender. Could he improve enough to escape the gravitational pull of average NBA player? Sure. Will he ever be a top 10 player? Odds are long against it.

Why are u so pessimistic on Wiggins when he has all the tools to become a great player? I mean if Butler could become a top 10 player, I see no reason why Wiggins cant. He has improved his 3 pt shooting and he just needs to improve his defense and ball handling which is not an impossible task to figure out. I dont see superstar potential but he can be a multiple all star kind of career. (top 20 player)

[RememberLu]

K.C. Johnson also said this draft is potentially as strong as the 2003 draft, and if the Bulls intend on rebuilding, this draft is a perfect time to try and nab a starting PG with a high lotto pick