Political Roundtable Part XII

[closg00]

Ever since the first two days of his Presidency, Trump has had non-stop success.

Nonstop success is of course measured by whether Trump is the center of conversation. He wasn't during his inauguration as the talk was on crowd size. Nor was he the next day, as the protests dominated. Since then however, Trump is dominating international conversation, and probably will for the foreseeable future.

As an aside, having worked on countering violent extremism for the past few years, if you had a group of data scientists with as much data as they could consume, they would be hard pressed to come up with a strategy the resulted in worse geopolitical consequences and global instability than this one.

In the last 24 hours or so, more and more counter terrorism experts have come forward to question the wisdom of the ban because of the concern that you raise. Here's what a couple of Republicans have said related to that:

"We fear this executive order will become a self-inflicted wound in the fight against terrorism," Sen. John McCain and Sen. LIndsay Graham said in a joint statement, adding that Trump's executive order "may do more to help terrorist recruitment than improve our security."

This is and has been pretty much a shared perspective across both parties in the national security establishment. We are in effect lighting a fire cracker and tossing it in a public space where lots of people have guns. The chances of blow back, perhaps deadly, is near certain.

Remember the letter 50 Top Republican Security Officials wrote to the Times warning the nation of a Trump Presidency? Well we have seen what they feared in the early going already. The guys who work in the trenches are sh*ting themselves, our spooks even warned their Israeli counterparts about sharing info.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/08/08/us/politics/national-security-letter-trump.html?_r=


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[DCZards]

The problem with public education is that the assumption is that it is the teacher's fault/school's fault that our educational outcomes are not exceptional for every student. Every politician talks about the ills of our public schools. What about those kids who are great and excel? The reality is that education starts at the home. Demanding parents and self-dicipline are essential for any child to excel. To blame poor outcomes entirely on teachers and schools is absolving the blame. I went to public schools my entire life sans graduate school. Why was I successful? It was because my parents demanded that I do well, and because I had enough self-discipline (fostered initially by my parents) to study hard every day.

I agree. Parental involvement is essential to student success. I've seen it up close and personal at my daughters' DC public schools where the highest achieving students come from those families where the parents are most involved in the child's school and schooling. They are also the families most capable of taking advantage of the school choices that are available to them.

Problem is that far too many of our kids, especially low-income inner-city kids, come from families where the parents are not involved. And, in many cases, the parent or parents are illiterate and not capable of helping their kids with their schoolwork even when they want to. Those are the kids I'm most worried about. My kids will be fine.

This is where those who think competition is the answer are dead wrong. It is a big mistake to abandon neighborhood schools for charter schools and school vouchers in the name of "choice or competition," because our most difficult to educate kids will remain behind in our lowest-performing schools, which will have only gotten worse when the involved parents leave.

For the sake of all of our kids, we have to do the hard work and thinking that it takes (and sometimes that means more money) to fix our failing schools. And truly leave no child behind.

[nate33]

Ever since the first two days of his Presidency, Trump has had non-stop success.

Nonstop success is of course measured by whether Trump is the center of conversation. He wasn't during his inauguration as the talk was on crowd size. Nor was he the next day, as the protests dominated. Since then however, Trump is dominating international conversation, and probably will for the foreseeable future.

As an aside, having worked on countering violent extremism for the past few years, if you had a group of data scientists with as much data as they could consume, they would be hard pressed to come up with a strategy the resulted in worse geopolitical consequences and global instability than this one.

In the last 24 hours or so, more and more counter terrorism experts have come forward to question the wisdom of the ban because of the concern that you raise. Here's what a couple of Republicans have said related to that:

"We fear this executive order will become a self-inflicted wound in the fight against terrorism," Sen. John McCain and Sen. LIndsay Graham said in a joint statement, adding that Trump's executive order "may do more to help terrorist recruitment than improve our security."

This is and has been pretty much a shared perspective across both parties in the national security establishment. We are in effect lighting a fire cracker and tossing it in a public space where lots of people have guns. The chances of blow back, perhaps deadly, is near certain.

I am completely nonplussed by this argument that restricting immigration from terrorism-ridden countries is somehow going to cause more terrorism here. And if indeed it does cause more Islam inspired terrorism here, than that's an even bigger argument to restrict Muslim immigration further. Do we want to admit people who are so unstable that a change in immigration policy is going to trigger them to blow people up?

Everyone does not have the right to immigrate to America. We are a sovereign nation. We can restrict anybody, for any reason, whatsoever. We could theoretically restrict all red-headed people simply because we don't like the looks of them. Potential immigrants are not citizens and have no constitutional rights whatsoever.

[dckingsfan]

The problem with public education is that the assumption is that it is the teacher's fault/school's fault that our educational outcomes are not exceptional for every student. Every politician talks about the ills of our public schools. What about those kids who are great and excel? The reality is that education starts at the home. Demanding parents and self-dicipline are essential for any child to excel. To blame poor outcomes entirely on teachers and schools is absolving the blame. I went to public schools my entire life sans graduate school. Why was I successful? It was because my parents demanded that I do well, and because I had enough self-discipline (fostered initially by my parents) to study hard every day.

I agree. Parental involvement is essential to student success. I've seen it up close and personal at my daughters' DC public schools where the highest achieving students come from those families where the parents are most involved in the child's school and schooling. They are also the families most capable of taking advantage of the school choices that are available to them.

Problem is that far too many of our kids, especially low-income inner-city kids, come from families where the parents are not involved. And, in many cases, the parent or parents are illiterate and not capable of helping their kids with their schoolwork even when they want to. Those are the kids I'm most worried about. My kids will be fine.

This is where those who think competition is the answer are dead wrong. It is a big mistake to abandon neighborhood schools for charter schools and school vouchers in the name of "choice or competition," because our most difficult to educate kids will remain behind in our lowest-performing schools, which will have only gotten worse when the involved parents leave.

For the sake of all of our kids, we have to do the hard work and thinking that it takes (and sometimes that means more money) to fix our failing schools. And truly leave no child behind.

That is exactly where Charter Schools do the best, it brings the parents back into the process.

[tontoz]

In the last 24 hours or so, more and more counter terrorism experts have come forward to question the wisdom of the ban because of the concern that you raise. Here's what a couple of Republicans have said related to that:

"We fear this executive order will become a self-inflicted wound in the fight against terrorism," Sen. John McCain and Sen. LIndsay Graham said in a joint statement, adding that Trump's executive order "may do more to help terrorist recruitment than improve our security."

This is and has been pretty much a shared perspective across both parties in the national security establishment. We are in effect lighting a fire cracker and tossing it in a public space where lots of people have guns. The chances of blow back, perhaps deadly, is near certain.

I am completely nonplussed by this argument that restricting immigration from terrorism-ridden countries is somehow going to cause more terrorism here. And if indeed it does cause more Islam inspired terrorism here, than that's an even bigger argument to restrict Muslim immigration further. Do we want to admit people who are so unstable that a change in immigration policy is going to trigger them to blow people up?

Everyone does not have the right to immigrate to America. We are a sovereign nation. We can restrict anybody, for any reason, whatsoever. We could theoretically restrict all red-headed people simply because we don't like the looks of them. Potential immigrants are not citizens and have no constitutional rights whatsoever.

Seriously it is comical that people are so concerned that our new policy will offend Muslims and make them become terrorists.

W T F.

Look at what has happened to countries with an open border policy. Appeasement didn't work so well for them.

[popper]

I think it would also be helpful to encourage young people to stop having babies out of wedlock. We should make a big deal of this and recruit stars that they look up to to push the message. We can't staunch the problem if we keep adding to the supply of children who are denied adequate parenting.

I read the new sexbots are really good. I'd be happy to pay more taxes to supply every young person their own personal sexbot so they can avoid any sexual human contact. Maybe there's a business idea for someone, like car sharing there could be sexbot sharing. Gross. They'd have to undergo some serious disinfection I guess.

[DCZards]

The problem with public education is that the assumption is that it is the teacher's fault/school's fault that our educational outcomes are not exceptional for every student. Every politician talks about the ills of our public schools. What about those kids who are great and excel? The reality is that education starts at the home. Demanding parents and self-dicipline are essential for any child to excel. To blame poor outcomes entirely on teachers and schools is absolving the blame. I went to public schools my entire life sans graduate school. Why was I successful? It was because my parents demanded that I do well, and because I had enough self-discipline (fostered initially by my parents) to study hard every day.

I agree. Parental involvement is essential to student success. I've seen it up close and personal at my daughters' DC public schools where the highest achieving students come from those families where the parents are most involved in the child's school and schooling. They are also the families most capable of taking advantage of the school choices that are available to them.

Problem is that far too many of our kids, especially low-income inner-city kids, come from families where the parents are not involved. And, in many cases, the parent or parents are illiterate and not capable of helping their kids with their schoolwork even when they want to. Those are the kids I'm most worried about. My kids will be fine.

This is where those who think competition is the answer are dead wrong. It is a big mistake to abandon neighborhood schools for charter schools and school vouchers in the name of "choice or competition," because our most difficult to educate kids will remain behind in our lowest-performing schools, which will have only gotten worse when the involved parents leave.

For the sake of all of our kids, we have to do the hard work and thinking that it takes (and sometimes that means more money) to fix our failing schools. And truly leave no child behind.

That is exactly where Charter Schools do the best, it brings the parents back into the process.

I don't have a problem with charter schools for those families who choose them. But you miss the larger point. The parents who are choosing charter schools are almost ALWAYS the parents who are the most involved with their child's education, regardless of the school their child is attending.

But there are far too many kids in families where parents are not involved in the educational process and will never be. The kids, many of them living in poverty, whose parents are not, for various reasons, taking advantage of the choice of charter schools or other options. (These are also the kids that many charter schools have figured out a way to avoid enrolling, btw.)

These are the kids I'm most concerned about. What do we do about (and for) those disadvantaged kids and the traditional, neighborhood schools that they will continue to attend? Do we simply blame those schools and their teachers for failing to adequately educate these kids?

[nate33]

Bottom line, among most Muslims and many brown skinned foreigners, since the election, white men have now become the "other". This didn't use to be the case, but clearly is now. Apparently we look pretty scary. This has the chance of becoming a real driver of instability. Self-fulfilling prophecies will follow.

Ever been to Sweden? If you ever go there be sure to ask the women how they feel about Muslim immigration. You might get a different side of the story.

Tontoz is right.

The false premise is that if we continue to allow unrestrained immigration, all the new immigrants will be so happy that they will live in harmony with the white people already here. It sounds like a wonderful idea and I'm sure most of you fervently believe that this can happen. Unfortunately, it has never been the case anywhere in history. Ask Europeans how nice the new immigrants are in return despite Europe being so nice to admit them. There's mass rape, terrorism, and no-go zones there. There is no reason to think that won't happen here once the Muslim percentage of the population exceeds 5% or so. Indeed, it's probably going to happen here with Latino immigration as there will eventually be conflicts in southern California, New Mexico and Arizona.

The unpleasant fact is, multiculturalism doesn't work. It hasn't worked anywhere in history. Multicultural societies that lack a dominant majority descend in balkanization, low public trust, high crime, and eventually civil war and/or secession every single time. What ALWAYS happens is that, as the dominant culture loses electoral power, it has no choice but to transition to identity politics in self defense to combat the identity politics understandably employed by minority groups. Once both sides resort to identity politics, government becomes paralyzed and ineffective.

We have two choices. We can continue with the same mass immigration we've sustained for the past 50 years, which will force whites into identity politics and ultimately lead to civil war/secession. Or we can put a stop to immigration and try and digest the 60 million new Americans we've invited over the past 50 years into one common polity. It took about 40 years of no immigration to digest the wave of immigration between 1880 and 1920, and most of those immigrants were English speaking and could pass for white themselves. It will probably take even longer this time around as the new Americans don't look like the old ones and have a more dramatically different language and culture.

[gtn130]

So where are all the #Benghazi nutjobs ready and eager to scream about the Trump-approved raid that needlessly resulted in the death of a Navy SEAL, innocent civilians, and an eight-year-old American girl, and was otherwise widely considered an abject failure and complete disaster of a mission?

[gtn130]

Surely all the #Benghazi folks are furious right now, right? RIGHT?

[closg00]

Wow, and people poo-poo the possible rise of fascism.
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/02/texas-high-school-students-make-nazi-salute-and-shout-hail-trump-in-senior-class-photos/


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[nate33]

So where are all the #Benghazi nutjobs ready and eager to scream about the Trump-approved raid that needlessly resulted in the death of a Navy SEAL, innocent civilians, and an eight-year-old American girl, and was otherwise widely considered an abject failure and complete disaster of a mission?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/thousands-in-yemen-protest-deadly-airstrike-as-saudi-coalition-agrees-to-a-probe/2016/10/09/cadf356a-8e3a-11e6-bc00-1a9756d4111b_story.html?utm_term=.2a6925661337

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/22/us-airstrike-yemen-dozens-dead-al-qaida-terrorism-training-camp

[nate33]

Wow, and people poo-poo the possible rise of fascism.
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/02/texas-high-school-students-make-nazi-salute-and-shout-hail-trump-in-senior-class-photos/


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It's called trolling. The media and democrats have become so unhinged with this ridiculous Trump=Hitler meme that the only sensible response is ridicule. The right is tired of cowering in the fetal position anytime someone from the left whines about Hitler. You've cried wolf one time too many, so this is what you get.

Call me when those students actually commit organized violence on the same scale as the protestors from the left. Until then, I'm not going to get concerned about it.

Also keep in mind that to these students, the Holocaust is just another event from history class. They don't see it as any more significant that any of the other horrific things that have taken place throughout history.

[gtn130]

So where are all the #Benghazi nutjobs ready and eager to scream about the Trump-approved raid that needlessly resulted in the death of a Navy SEAL, innocent civilians, and an eight-year-old American girl, and was otherwise widely considered an abject failure and complete disaster of a mission?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/thousands-in-yemen-protest-deadly-airstrike-as-saudi-coalition-agrees-to-a-probe/2016/10/09/cadf356a-8e3a-11e6-bc00-1a9756d4111b_story.html?utm_term=.2a6925661337

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/22/us-airstrike-yemen-dozens-dead-al-qaida-terrorism-training-camp

Yes, those things are also bad. Don't recall the #Benghazi folks raging over those atrocities either.

I bet we can find 100s of posts from my man popper (and probably Induveca) decrying the crime against humanity that was #Benghazi, but complete apathy toward pretty much everything else related to casualties overseas.

[AFM]

I think it would also be helpful to encourage young people to stop having babies out of wedlock. We should make a big deal of this and recruit stars that they look up to to push the message. We can't staunch the problem if we keep adding to the supply of children who are denied adequate parenting.

I read the new sexbots are really good. I'd be happy to pay more taxes to supply every young person their own personal sexbot so they can avoid any sexual human contact. Maybe there's a business idea for someone, like car sharing there could be sexbot sharing. Gross. They'd have to undergo some serious disinfection I guess.

Yeah, I, uh, "read" they are really good, too.

[popper]

So where are all the #Benghazi nutjobs ready and eager to scream about the Trump-approved raid that needlessly resulted in the death of a Navy SEAL, innocent civilians, and an eight-year-old American girl, and was otherwise widely considered an abject failure and complete disaster of a mission?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/thousands-in-yemen-protest-deadly-airstrike-as-saudi-coalition-agrees-to-a-probe/2016/10/09/cadf356a-8e3a-11e6-bc00-1a9756d4111b_story.html?utm_term=.2a6925661337

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/22/us-airstrike-yemen-dozens-dead-al-qaida-terrorism-training-camp

Yes, those things are also bad. Don't recall the #Benghazi folks raging over those atrocities either.

I bet we can find 100s of posts from my man popper (and probably Induveca) decrying the crime against humanity that was #Benghazi, but complete apathy toward pretty much everything else related to casualties overseas.

You rang. No, I was a big critic of Bush's war in Iraq. Terrible decision.

[badinage]

Just trolling, exactly. No big deal. I mean, what's the fuss, guys? It's just the Holocaust, fer Chrissakes.

How about me and my boys go round up some of these innocent kids and take them for a little ol' camp experience for a couple weeks -- old-school camp; a camp like they've never experienced before. They can wear cool baggy striped clothes, and get their heads shaved, and have their teeth pulled, and watch all manner of depravity and barbarity committed before their very eyes, and learn to understand, first-hand, terror and fear and what it's like to be an outsider in a culture. Awesome, right! A real teachable moment. And at night, for fun, we can flog the **** out of them, and make them cry and beg for mercy, and laugh in their faces.

See boys? As Mr. Faulkner said, the past isn't dead, it isn't even passed.

[popper]

I think it would also be helpful to encourage young people to stop having babies out of wedlock. We should make a big deal of this and recruit stars that they look up to to push the message. We can't staunch the problem if we keep adding to the supply of children who are denied adequate parenting.

I read the new sexbots are really good. I'd be happy to pay more taxes to supply every young person their own personal sexbot so they can avoid any sexual human contact. Maybe there's a business idea for someone, like car sharing there could be sexbot sharing. Gross. They'd have to undergo some serious disinfection I guess.

Yeah, I, uh, "read" they are really good, too.

I swear I've never even seen one. But a friend of mine wants to know how much they're going for nowadays.

[sfam]

This is and has been pretty much a shared perspective across both parties in the national security establishment. We are in effect lighting a fire cracker and tossing it in a public space where lots of people have guns. The chances of blow back, perhaps deadly, is near certain.

Remember the letter 50 Top Republican Security Officials wrote to the Times warning the nation of a Trump Presidency? Well we have seen what they feared in the early going already. The guys who work in the trenches are sh*ting themselves, our spooks even warned their Israeli counterparts about sharing info.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/08/08/us/politics/national-security-letter-trump.html?_r=

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Its interesting the strategies you see on the Republican side. Like I mentioned, they all have about the same perspective on this, but not all are very outspoken. Others are holding their tongue in the hopes of offering council at some point in the future when its asked for. I've heard Stephen Hadley (former Bush Nat. Security Advisor, currently Chairman of the Board at US Institute of Peace) speak on this in gory detail numerous times, for instance, but he isn't thumping the table right now. Its a personal decision for everyone based on their position in some cases how they handle it. This is different from thinking the approach has any merit.

[sfam]

Because most of those are hoaxes. And the ones that aren't are mere taunting by individuals, which is nothing compared to the actual, literal assaults and property damage being perpetuated by organized groups of Democrat supporters. Indeed there is video proving that some of these organized violent protests are being directed by DNC operatives.

I actually have worked with and know lots of Muslims in the US and overseas. Muslim Americans and greencard holders I know, in a very liberal location like Washington DC have been subject to harrassment to the point that many have changed their approach walking down the street. Muslim peacebuilders to have training to work in conflict zones now feel the need to use this training in navigating unfamiliar public spaces in the US. I had a conversation a few weeks ago with a Muslim american I worked with who's daughter asked if they were going to get deported. She had to answer, "I don't know".

The worst of this is those who are targeted - women with scarves on their head - are like the least dangerous and most afraid. My Great grandmother wore a scarf on her head most of her life - for some reason, this didn't scare folks in Indiana that much. Apparently the ordinance capability of textiles has improved somewhat - I'm not sure why else a Hijab inspires such fear.

My wife is Korean. What's really strange is the blowback racism hitting there. My daugher and a group of friends were out and about in Sarasota, FL shortly after the election, and were yelled at by a group of 20 somethings to "Go back to China now, We don't want you here anymore."

Bottom line, among most Muslims and many brown skinned foreigners, since the election, white men have now become the "other". This didn't use to be the case, but clearly is now. Apparently we look pretty scary. This has the chance of becoming a real driver of instability. Self-fulfilling prophecies will follow.

Ever been to Sweden? If you ever go there be sure to ask the women how they feel about Muslim immigration. You might get a different side of the story.

Again, I haven't been up on textile advancements, but perhaps they have found a way to make muslim scarves with explosive capabilities in Sweden. I doubt it though.

More to your point, the issue with radicalization is a complicated one, and really involves questions of integration and grievances. The US is among the best their is at integration. Most countries in Europe have traditionally struggled, with obvious negative consequences. The migration crisis has really inflamed tensions and problems with this.

There is rather broad agreement at this point that they key to stopping the radicalization is the messenger, not the message. If the US State Department is providing the "Turn away from terror" message, literally, none of those at will hear it. If they do it becomes a meme at best, antagonistic at worse.

But if their Imam is telling them, or their best friend, or their mother, or your cell mate, they become receptive.