Hornets acquire Miles Plumlee for Hawes & Hibbert

[Braggins]

For the capologists, are we really expecting to be able to do much with that $8m MLE? Please prove me wrong b/c I'm just envisioning that we spend it on another Hibbert/Sessions/Roberts tier of player.

Thats what I was thinking. 8 mil in this cap environment basically gets you 3rd string level players.

[Lwcasu]

As far as hawes and hibbert being better than Miles you couldnt be further off base. Hibbert is quite possibly the worst player in the NBA.

We are 1-11 without zeller and 22-16 with zeller.

Now ask yourself is cody Zeller Jesus Christ reincarnate or do hibbert and hawes suck monkey d?

It's never just that simple in a team game. You also have zero context for any of those smaller samples size or account for other very important things like SOS, their actual individual performances, other injuries on the team, back to backs, home away breakdown, other teams trends at the time, other teams injuries in that time etc etc. You just have a surface level with zero depth and back it on nothing but your weak opinion.

Here is what we KNOW when we take the sum of it all

When Plumlee actually gets on the court his 9.7 minutes for a 21-27 team the 32 times he has escaped the bench he has an 8.0 PER and is 47th out of 71 centers in RPM.

Hibbert has a much more respectable 13.4 PER and is 39th out of 71 centers in RPM.

The fact is by almost every important metric used to measure these guys productivity in the game the guys you shipped have been better.

Except, you're basing this off one year. Sample size is important. Plumlee has several productive seasons prior to this year. Also, what you aren't considering is how bad of a Pnr defender Hibbert is. He's not good, and probably the worst in the league at this. Just wait, you'll see. Hawes isn't a bad player, but hasn't played well this season, and he does a lot of the things that Kaminsky does, so he's expendable.

[Bassman]

A poor trade in that Miles really doesn't have the skills he seems to be lauded for by some, is expensive and sets our cap back. Cho is not helping our situation. I liked Miles at one time, but maybe he is more focused on unicycles than basketball.

This team is truly on the treadmill.

[dmutombo321]

Its almost a case study in the psychology of irrational optimism to see how some folks can delude themselves into talking this up as if it was somehow a good deal. Yes, Plumlee is a better fit than either Hibbert or Hawes, but his pricetag far exceeds his value and there's a reason his is universally regarded as one of the 10 worst contracts in the NBA.

Cho has mastered the blueprint for casual fan appeasement; assemble a capped out .500ish squad just competitive enough to scrap for an ephemeral playoff cameo each year while lacking the talent to win a series nor the draft positioning or cap flexibility to meaningfully upgrade the roster enough to ever compete with the big boys

When his tenure as Charlotte's GM concludes, Cho's How-To book will be able to write itself:

'First Round Fodder
...A Manifesto for Mediocrity'

It has good alliteration and Al Jefferson can author the foreword

[GlenRiceARoni]

As far as hawes and hibbert being better than Miles you couldnt be further off base. Hibbert is quite possibly the worst player in the NBA.

We are 1-11 without zeller and 22-16 with zeller.

Now ask yourself is cody Zeller Jesus Christ reincarnate or do hibbert and hawes suck monkey d?

It's never just that simple in a team game. You also have zero context for any of those smaller samples size or account for other very important things like SOS, their actual individual performances, other injuries on the team, back to backs, home away breakdown, other teams trends at the time, other teams injuries in that time etc etc. You just have a surface level with zero depth and back it on nothing but your weak opinion.

Here is what we KNOW when we take the sum of it all

When Plumlee actually gets on the court his 9.7 minutes for a 21-27 team the 32 times he has escaped the bench he has an 8.0 PER and is 47th out of 71 centers in RPM.

Hibbert has a much more respectable 13.4 PER and is 39th out of 71 centers in RPM.

The fact is by almost every important metric used to measure these guys productivity in the game the guys you shipped have been better.

Lol dude. You just came at me with effing PER stats.

Im quite well versed in actual advanced statistics.

Hibbert destroys our offemsive and defensive efficiency. As does Hawes. Miles is a perfect fit if he returns to previous form.

You dont know what the blank youre talking about and we will leave it at that.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit

[GlenRiceARoni]

Its almost a case study in the psychology of irrational optimism to see how some folks can delude themselves into talking this up as if it was somehow a good deal. Yes, Plumlee is a better fit than either Hibbert or Hawes, but his pricetag far exceeds his value and there's a reason his is universally regarded as one of the 10 worst contracts in the NBA.

Cho has mastered the blueprint for casual fan appeasement; assemble a capped out .500ish squad just competitive enough to scrap for an ephemeral playoff cameo each year while lacking the talent to win a series nor the draft positioning or cap flexibility to meaningfully upgrade the roster enough to ever compete with the big boys

When his tenure as Charlotte's GM concludes, Cho's How-To book will be able to write itself:

'First Round Fodder
...A Manifesto for Mediocrity'

It has good alliteration and Al Jefferson can author the foreword

Completely disagree on the .500 team for obvious reasons.

Absolutely no reason this squad cant win ~50 games if healthy.

22-16 with zeller
1-11 without zeller

We are WELL over .500 with zeller and that was with hibbert completely screwing us.

We won 48 games last year and tied for 3rd place.

People talk about this "treadmill" but its all straight BS. Most championship teams were made by forming a good team and continuing to add pieces not by tanking.

A lot of these "young cores" everyone raves about top out at 30-40 wins. Then you have to pay them huge money before you know if they are good enough to justify it....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit

[TheKingofSting]

Its almost a case study in the psychology of irrational optimism to see how some folks can delude themselves into talking this up as if it was somehow a good deal. Yes, Plumlee is a better fit than either Hibbert or Hawes, but his pricetag far exceeds his value and there's a reason his is universally regarded as one of the 10 worst contracts in the NBA.

Cho has mastered the blueprint for casual fan appeasement; assemble a capped out .500ish squad just competitive enough to scrap for an ephemeral playoff cameo each year while lacking the talent to win a series nor the draft positioning or cap flexibility to meaningfully upgrade the roster enough to ever compete with the big boys

When his tenure as Charlotte's GM concludes, Cho's How-To book will be able to write itself:

'First Round Fodder
...A Manifesto for Mediocrity'

It has good alliteration and Al Jefferson can author the foreword

Completely disagree on the .500 team for obvious reasons.

Absolutely no reason this squad cant win ~50 games if healthy.

22-16 with zeller
1-11 without zeller

We are WELL over .500 with zeller and that was with hibbert completely screwing us.

We won 48 games last year and tied for 3rd place.

People talk about this "treadmill" but its all straight BS. Most championship teams were made by forming a good team and continuing to add pieces not by tanking.

A lot of these "young cores" everyone raves about top out at 30-40 wins. Then you have to pay them huge money before you know if they are good enough to justify it....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit

Same, no way in hell we get back to .500 if this is the only move Cho has up his sleeve. Hopefully it sets up another move but I won't hold my breath.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bws94]

Not bad, need to make more moves.

[asudevil]

I'm not going to grade or judge the trade for Plumlee. But i want to educate the fans on what trading for Plumlee did and didnt do.

Adding him had no effect on whether or not the Bobcats gained an MLE to spend in the offseason. The Bobcats already had it to spend. So, i'll just quote the GB discussion that i had with yosemiteben.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1519921&start=100

[Braggins]

I'm not going to grade or judge the trade for Plumlee. But i want to educate the fans on what trading for Plumlee did and didnt do.

Adding him had no effect on whether or not the Bobcats gained an MLE to spend in the offseason. The Bobcats already had it to spend. So, i'll just quote the GB discussion that i had with yosemiteben.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1519921&start=100

Why do you keep referring to the team as The Bobcats?

[asudevil]

I'm not going to grade or judge the trade for Plumlee. But i want to educate the fans on what trading for Plumlee did and didnt do.

Adding him had no effect on whether or not the Bobcats gained an MLE to spend in the offseason. The Bobcats already had it to spend. So, i'll just quote the GB discussion that i had with yosemiteben.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1519921&start=100

Why do you keep referring to the team as The Bobcats?

Honestly, i'm completely sorry. I dont mean to be disrespectful, and i didnt even realize that i was wrong until you pointed it out.

I usually just refer to teams as Charlotte or Chicago or Milwaukee, not by their team name.

Me being from the west, i dont really pay much attention to the east. And even when i picture New Orleans i still catch myself calling them the Hornets.

I feel like a moron

[Braggins]

I'm not going to grade or judge the trade for Plumlee. But i want to educate the fans on what trading for Plumlee did and didnt do.

Adding him had no effect on whether or not the Bobcats gained an MLE to spend in the offseason. The Bobcats already had it to spend. So, i'll just quote the GB discussion that i had with yosemiteben.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1519921&start=100

Why do you keep referring to the team as The Bobcats?

Honestly, i'm completely sorry. I dont mean to be disrespectful, and i didnt even realize that i was wrong until you pointed it out.

I usually just refer to teams as Charlotte or Chicago or Milwaukee, not by their team name.

Me being from the west, i dont really pay much attention to the east. And even when i picture New Orleans i still catch myself calling them the Hornets.

I feel like a moron

Its all good. I didn't think you meant anything by it. It would have been a savage troll tactic had it been intentional lol.

[asudevil]

Why do you keep referring to the team as The Bobcats?

Honestly, i'm completely sorry. I dont mean to be disrespectful, and i didnt even realize that i was wrong until you pointed it out.

I usually just refer to teams as Charlotte or Chicago or Milwaukee, not by their team name.

Me being from the west, i dont really pay much attention to the east. And even when i picture New Orleans i still catch myself calling them the Hornets.

I feel like a moron

Its all good. I didn't think you meant anything by it. It would have been a savage troll tactic had it been intentional lol.

Oh yes....it would be SAVAGE. I grew up with the NBA in the 90s. I remember Zo/Grandmama/Bogues and they were forever Hornets. It took years to condition myself with Charlotte as the Bobcats when they returned. I guess i never broke the habit after that.

But back to the trade:
Charlotte always had their MLE to spend regardless if they traded for Plumlee or Hawes exercising his option. Trading for Plumlee didnt make gaining a MLE happen.

As i pointed out in the GB thread, if you feel like paying Plumlee over Hawes is worth the price, then the trade is a win. The short term cap ramifications do not matter.

Plumlee on the Suns did show flashes of being a productive C. And he did get buried in Milwaukee. I do question his long term value for the price. But as the NBA has shown their is an overpay for C players.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Interesting. I should have read the FAQ first. Guess I'm used to when the team was way under the cap.

Ah, well, it will be interesting to see if this trade works for the team or not.

[GlenRiceARoni]

I see the explanation and it makes sense.

1) My prior understanding was that you got to use the MLE every other season... is that correct or can you not use it if a guy is still under contract who signed to the MLE originally?


2) I really think Jordan is willing to use our MLE this offseason. We are so close to putting together a good basketball team and he has to be sick of the flack he has taken as an owner in washington/charlotte. Hes made a pile of money already.


We have a good mix of veterans and young guys who still strike me as hungry to win.

People are really underestimating how bad those hawes/hibbert minutes were killing us.

The difference was night and day with cody off the court.

The goal of this trade is to limit the difference to dusk and day

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit

[BlackOutBuzz]

Every team gets some type of MLE, they're just varying amounts depending on their cap status. Being over the cap but under the tax equals the largest possible MLE. Said MLE is also increasing by a good bit this year.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[12footrim]

As far as hawes and hibbert being better than Miles you couldnt be further off base. Hibbert is quite possibly the worst player in the NBA.

We are 1-11 without zeller and 22-16 with zeller.

Now ask yourself is cody Zeller Jesus Christ reincarnate or do hibbert and hawes suck monkey d?

It's never just that simple in a team game. You also have zero context for any of those smaller samples size or account for other very important things like SOS, their actual individual performances, other injuries on the team, back to backs, home away breakdown, other teams trends at the time, other teams injuries in that time etc etc. You just have a surface level with zero depth and back it on nothing but your weak opinion.

Here is what we KNOW when we take the sum of it all

When Plumlee actually gets on the court his 9.7 minutes for a 21-27 team the 32 times he has escaped the bench he has an 8.0 PER and is 47th out of 71 centers in RPM.

Hibbert has a much more respectable 13.4 PER and is 39th out of 71 centers in RPM.

The fact is by almost every important metric used to measure these guys productivity in the game the guys you shipped have been better.

Except, you're basing this off one year. Sample size is important. Plumlee has several productive seasons prior to this year. Also, what you aren't considering is how bad of a Pnr defender Hibbert is. He's not good, and probably the worst in the league at this. Just wait, you'll see. Hawes isn't a bad player, but hasn't played well this season, and he does a lot of the things that Kaminsky does, so he's expendable.

EXCEPT that both Hawes and Hibbert have HAD better overall CAREERS as well if you really want to go there. Hell Hibbert has been an all star just a few years ago and they are all bout the same age. I think what they did 3 or 4 years ago personally is less relevant than this season but like this season they have had better careers and have contributed and had bigger roles on better teams than he ever has. Hell he couldn't even get off the bench on the team Hibbert was staring for when they were teamates and there is only 2 years age difference.

[12footrim]

As far as hawes and hibbert being better than Miles you couldnt be further off base. Hibbert is quite possibly the worst player in the NBA.

We are 1-11 without zeller and 22-16 with zeller.

Now ask yourself is cody Zeller Jesus Christ reincarnate or do hibbert and hawes suck monkey d?

It's never just that simple in a team game. You also have zero context for any of those smaller samples size or account for other very important things like SOS, their actual individual performances, other injuries on the team, back to backs, home away breakdown, other teams trends at the time, other teams injuries in that time etc etc. You just have a surface level with zero depth and back it on nothing but your weak opinion.

Here is what we KNOW when we take the sum of it all

When Plumlee actually gets on the court his 9.7 minutes for a 21-27 team the 32 times he has escaped the bench he has an 8.0 PER and is 47th out of 71 centers in RPM.

Hibbert has a much more respectable 13.4 PER and is 39th out of 71 centers in RPM.

The fact is by almost every important metric used to measure these guys productivity in the game the guys you shipped have been better.

Lol dude. You just came at me with effing PER stats.

Im quite well versed in actual advanced statistics.

Hibbert destroys our offemsive and defensive efficiency. As does Hawes. Miles is a perfect fit if he returns to previous form.

You dont know what the blank youre talking about and we will leave it at that.

......and you came with NOTHING and weak logic and left with nothing and weak "if''s"

PER was only one part of what I posted RPM was the other......8.0 PER is about as bad as it gets. Period. We could break the awfulness down by other measures if you want but it's awful for a reason and there is a reason the hall of fame are all top 100 in PER and Jordan is #1.

Along with the individual measures the teams have played better with Hibbert on the floor as well this years which is why I posted his RPM which IS BETTER on top of Hibbert being MUCH more individually efficient. These are facts you can't dispute or haven't backed up your personal views with anything.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Both Hawes and Hibbert were doing interesting things a few years ago. However neither one has done great in a while.

For Hibbert, Indiana soured on him and he didn't impress either here or in his prior stop with the Lakers. He can still defend the rim and I see effort from him sometimes, but it doesn't seem to amount to much.

Hawes was fine with the 76ers, but fans in LA hated him with the Clippers. Here was a mixed bag for him, but ultimately he just wasn't getting the job done. His passing is fine. He can hit some 3s.

So I think that it's a bit misleading to cite careers for both guys. They each had one situation where they seemed to do OK several years ago, but haven't done anything recently on more than one team. Beyond that we are getting into my opinion ... but I think that both guys are just a bit slow for how most teams play these days. It hurts their ability to defend on the perimeter, score inside, help on defense, and more. A few years ago slower guys were able to get by on the right teams. I don't think that flies anymore. League has been changing and for both guys it's passed them by in important ways.

[bravor]

I just have no idea what to expect from him. But considering how inconsistent and soft Hibbet and Hawes have been, i just don't see how Plumlee could be worst. At least he has a big body and don't seem to shy away from the rim.

The other consequence of this trade is that the organization is serious about making the play offs this year, and keeping the 2017 picks (till draft day maybe). I just wish they could get a 3D like Toupane or alike from the D League. And use next off season to fix the combo guard/pg back up position (and somehow manage to get the best pick if this draft is as deep as mentioned at this position even though i don't see a lot of two ways pg's there except - call me french homer - Ntilikina).

At least i will have a reason to watch the Hornets again, last few games were unwatchable (for a team that was able to pull such a game against Toronto not so long ago).