Is Zach Lavine the most overrated young player in the NBA?

Tom349 · Post #21 » by **Tom349** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 8:26 am

Can only speak for his game against the Jazz but from I haven't seen someone score as many points when the game is over as Lavine. It's only been a few games but he goes from having a modest 15 pts then in the last three minutes of the game he will go off and finish the game with 20 plus.

dorkestra · Post #22 » by **dorkestra** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 8:27 am

Can Minnesota fans comment more on - not the efficiency of scoring in things like TS%, but more along the lines of which player can score in the flow of the offense better between Wiggins and LaVine?

N.O.R.E. · Post #23 » by **N.O.R.E.** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 8:30 am

Lavine is a fine young talent. Obviously has issues on D, but correct me if I'm wrong, other more highly touted studs such as Booker (understandably) get a pass in this regard.
What about Lillard and McCollum?

dorkestra · Post #24 » by **dorkestra** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 8:36 am

N.O.R.E. wrote:Lavine is a fine young talent. Obviously has issues on D, but correct me if I'm wrong, other more highly touted studs such as Booker (understandably) get a pass in this regard.
What about Lillard and McCollum?

Lillard seems like he has shown the ability to actually win basketball games based on his offensive talent. The other players you mentioned have displayed gret offensive talent within games they they typically lose.

RaptorsLife · Post #25 » by **RaptorsLife** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 8:38 am

he reminds so much of demar derozan in his first 2 years. dunk contest, doesnt play defense, hard workers. only thing defense, not particularly a good rebounder or passer also high usg%..... only difference is lavine can shoot 3s and derozan had a post back down. pretty all of kobe moves. i would probably trade him with his value is the highest. actually both wiggins and lavine remind me of derozan. i cant imagine both on the same team together. t

FargoWolf · Post #26 » by **FargoWolf** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 8:54 am

He is overrated by some Wolves fans I guess but as a player he has come a long way in a short time.

He still does a lot of dumb stuff but he works hard and he has the ideal coach to teach him how to play defense(hopefully it sinks in at some point), the problem with him and Wiggins is both of them could use a better defender next to them.

Ice Trae · Post #27 » by **Ice Trae** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 9:20 am

As someone who doesn't watch the Twolves much, what exactly is wrong with his defense?

AndriPerdhian93 · Post #28 » by **AndriPerdhian93** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 9:38 am

Based Schroeder wrote:As someone who doesn't watch the Twolves much, what exactly is wrong with his defense?

1 tier above harden D

BoomBap · Post #29 » by **BoomBap** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 9:50 am

Lavine > Wiggins

brutalitops · Post #30 » by **brutalitops** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 10:08 am

Based Schroeder wrote:As someone who doesn't watch the Twolves much, what exactly is wrong with his defense?

Rotating is poor and a poor perimeter defensive player, He'll collapse in too much and ball watch. Man D he's ok. Just not strong enough to defend a lot of the older SG's (understandable)

dantheman74 · Post #31 » by **dantheman74** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 10:26 am

When the Wolves have enough depth that Lavine can actually try to play real defence without the scare of going to the bench due to foul trouble, then we can judge his real effort.

N.O.R.E. · Post #32 » by **N.O.R.E.** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 11:26 am

FargoWolf wrote:He is overrated by some Wolves fans I guess but as a player he has come a long way in a short time.

He still does a lot of dumb stuff but he works hard and he has the ideal coach to teach him how to play defense(hopefully it sinks in at some point), the problem with him and Wiggins is both of them could use a better defender next to them.

Which is crazy - Wiggins came in touted as someone who should develop into a very good defender...

cccmonteiro · Post #33 » by **cccmonteiro** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 11:46 am

Well, it's hard to get a definitive answer to this. His defense is atrocious and his left hand needs to be more effective.

On the other hand he's still just 21 and his shooting has improved beyond my personal expectations. And his decision making is not on par with his shooting that's for sure.

Unfortunately for the Wolves, he has a hard time sharing the floor with Wiggins. There is always something off: sometimes the defense, sometimes the spacing. They really have a hard time putting it all together at the same time. That's the main thing at the moment.

Merc_Porto · Post #34 » by **Merc_Porto** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 11:48 am

He really is. The impact he has on the game is -0 even when he scores +20pts.
He's the 5th worst defender in the league, add to that that Wiggins is only a little better at D and you have your problem right there. THEY CAN'T PLAY TOGETHER.

You can't compare Wiggins to Lavine. Lavine is good at things he always showed potencial to be goog like shooting and finish at rim.

Wiggins is playing out of position forced to things like being a playmaker, he's also defending the best wing defender of the opponent every night. Lavine can't even guard guys like CJ Watson. Put Wiggins at 2 with a 3D next to hin and the difference would huge.

There as "small example size" this season of that. The best Timberwolves basketball by far when that happend.

Btw, the problem is not only Lavine - Wiggins, the problem is also Rubio - Lavine. When Lavine is on the floor there is no P&R plays being run by Ricky Rubio which is by far the best weapon of the Wolves offense. When Lavine is out or the Wolves are down by a lot we always come back to that.

Johnny Firpo · Post #35 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 12:51 pm

KF10 wrote:I always come out impressed whenever I watch Lavine play tbh. The only thing I can think of that is a negative right now is his defense. It's pretty poor.

He also kind of fools you into thinking he is very good, because everything he does looks good, he has an aesthetically pleasing game, just not a particularly good basketball player so far. He doesn't have the intangibles, and that shows in the advanced stats. Same is true for Towns . at least to a degree - but they are still young, and undeniably have a high ceiling.

minami · Post #36 » by **minami** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 1:07 pm

I "hated" the guy for the reasons you mention and trying to make him a PG in Minny didn´t help either, but have to concede he has impressed me in a few games lately (last year also); the guy shows a deadly shooting when hot and brings on a lot of energy. I don´t see loads of IQ showing as he matures but he will be fine. He is definitely a 2, but Kyle Lowry being a headless chicken in Memphis comes to mind in terms of potential development.

minami · Post #37 » by **minami** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 1:30 pm

Also i am not saying he will become a poor man's Westbrook in the future (which would be great) but Lavine´s offensive game reminds me a lot of his. Yet (as Russ and Lowry in the past) he shows a terrible decision making plus an overall low IQ. If he improves in those areas plus some defense he might be into something, as his offensive game is a given. Still a big if, i am not yet a fan, but loads of potential.

Minny desperately needs some PO competition, instead of tanking.

laika · Post #38 » by **laika** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 2:12 pm

The_Hater wrote:
AssistRubio wrote:Someone fill me in because I don't see it. Athletically he is amazing, other than that nothing he does stands out. His defense is horrendous, his decision making is horrendous and his shot doesn't compare to guys like Klay, CJ McCollum and Beal.

So what exactly is his upside again? All I see is JR Smith 2.0.

It might actually be his running mate Andrew Wiggins. Wiggins is less effcient, more selfish and far worse in the advanced stats on both sides of the ball.

This is not true.

Wiggins leads in PER, 15.2 to 14.7
Wiggins is far ahead in raw On/Off, positive 2.8 to negative 7.2
Wiggins leads in DRPM, -2.11 to -3.02
Wiggins leads in RPM, -1.49 to -1.85

Most importantly, Wiggins without Lavine is way better than Lavine without Wiggins.
Wiggins without Lavine- positive 4.8
Lavine without Wiggins- negative 4.4

Wiggins has been somewhat disappointing, but I'd much rather try to build a team with him than Lavine.

The_Hater · Post #39 » by **The_Hater** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 2:58 pm

laika wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
AssistRubio wrote:Someone fill me in because I don't see it. Athletically he is amazing, other than that nothing he does stands out. His defense is horrendous, his decision making is horrendous and his shot doesn't compare to guys like Klay, CJ McCollum and Beal.

So what exactly is his upside again? All I see is JR Smith 2.0.

It might actually be his running mate Andrew Wiggins. Wiggins is less effcient, more selfish and far worse in the advanced stats on both sides of the ball.

This is not true.

Wiggins leads in PER, 15.2 to 14.7
Wiggins is far ahead in raw On/Off, positive 2.8 to negative 7.2
Wiggins leads in DRPM, -2.11 to -3.02
Wiggins leads in RPM, -1.49 to -1.85

Most importantly, Wiggins without Lavine is way better than Lavine without Wiggins.
Wiggins without Lavine- positive 4.8
Lavine without Wiggins- negative 4.4

Wiggins has been somewhat disappointing, but I'd much rather try to build a team with him than Lavine.

That's fair although Zach leads in VORP, OPdM, DPBM and a few other stars as well

And since Wiggins has always been considered the better prospect, he has been more overrated imo.

Big Mac Biyombo · Post #40 » by **Big Mac Biyombo** » Sat Feb 4, 2017 3:09 pm

dorkestra wrote:I'm not sure what the stats say, but when I watch him, I feel like he's a bit of a chucker. In most situations that's okay, given his skills, but when you have Towns and Wiggins, maybe a bit more selflessness wouldn't hurt him. Probably still scarred from his treatment at UCLA.

He was treated perfectly fairly at UCLA. Powell, Anderson and Adams we're just flat out better than him. Powell still is if you look at his numbers as a starter with Toronto.

Now as for Alford getting minutes over Zach some days, that was just ridiculous.

I still don't understand how that team wasn't better. On paper they looked so damn good. I'm really amazed they didn't make a deeper run.