2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[Impuniti]

People? Yeah maybe a few homers and GSW fans.

Nobody in their right mind will broach such a conversation even if he wins 3 straight.

Lol what? KD is having a better regular season than Lebron. If Warriors win the finals and KD plays on this level in playoffs, it's not really a conversation. The only argument for Lebron right now is what he did over the course of 3 games 7 months ago. Big stage and all that, so I'm keeping him at #1 for now.

KD is having a better season than LeBron. But last year Steph had a MUCH better season than LeBron, and we saw what happened in the finals.

Regardless - let's say KD goes nuts in the 2nd half, wins MVP and FMVP sweeping the Cavs 4 straight. Before posting that you now think KD is better than LeBron, do this exercise:

Imagine a game between

The current Warriors
vs.
The current Warriors with LeBron instead of KD

Imagine what happens in this game. Stop yourself from posting that KD is better than LeBron.

If Warriors sweep the Cavs and Curry or KD owns Lebron's soul along the way, no amount of crying or whining from Cav fans is going to change that 1/2 two players is better than Lebron. Lebron is the best player in the world until the finals again this year, and what happens then will determine who wears the crown.

[Starboy]

The only things keeping Lebron at #1 are his heroics in last 2.5 games of the Finals. He hasn't been the best player over the entire season since 2013. He only regained it because of his finals last year and there is 0 chance that his games 5 and 6 in 2016 will be enough to somehow make him a better player in late 2017. If he goes nuts again and dominates more than KD/Steph, sure. If not, they will be the consensus best players (pending playoffs).

[bmurph128]

Lol what? KD is having a better regular season than Lebron. If Warriors win the finals and KD plays on this level in playoffs, it's not really a conversation. The only argument for Lebron right now is what he did over the course of 3 games 7 months ago. Big stage and all that, so I'm keeping him at #1 for now.

KD is having a better season than LeBron. But last year Steph had a MUCH better season than LeBron, and we saw what happened in the finals.

Regardless - let's say KD goes nuts in the 2nd half, wins MVP and FMVP sweeping the Cavs 4 straight. Before posting that you now think KD is better than LeBron, do this exercise:

Imagine a game between

The current Warriors
vs.
The current Warriors with LeBron instead of KD

Imagine what happens in this game. Stop yourself from posting that KD is better than LeBron.

If Warriors sweep the Cavs and Curry or KD owns Lebron's soul along the way, no amount of crying or whining from Cav fans is going to change that 1/2 two players is better than Lebron. Lebron is the best player in the world until the finals again this year, and what happens then will determine who wears the crown.

No amount of crying? Okay..

It's really not that easy to judge. I will admit that if the Warriors own the Cavs this year in the finals that Steph/Klay/KD/Draymond are better than LeBron/Kyrie/Love. Sounds like you're ready to hold it against LeBron that he doesn't have the best supporting cast of all time, which obviously makes a difference

[bmurph128]

The only things keeping Lebron at #1 are his heroics in last 2.5 games of the Finals. He hasn't been the best player over the entire season since 2013. He only regained it because of his finals last year and there is 0 chance that his games 5 and 6 in 2016 will be enough to somehow make him a better player in late 2017. If he goes nuts again and dominates more than KD/Steph, sure. If not, they will be the consensus best players (pending playoffs).

"Best player" is more a mantle assigned by fans/media than anything that actually happens on a basketball court. It's been years and still at the present that nobody is a better basketball player than LeBron. But individually players will have better seasons here and there. Doesn't make them better players.

The status quo right now is that LeBron is the best player and the Warriors are expected to win the finals because they are the best team ever assembled. Winning a title won't prove anything unless LeBron plays well below his standard, and even in that scenario the Warriors as a team are so much better that it's hard to glean much on an individual level from that scenario.

You have to accept the bad that comes with your team being so great - it's similar to odds - wanting KD or Steph to be known as the best player in the NBA is like wanting to win money straight up by betting on the Warriors - just doesn't work that way. You have to bet a lot of money to win a little bit of money - similarly the Warriors have to do great things to get notoriety.

But this is why sports are so enthralling. If it plays out that way, and the Warriors beat the Cavs in the finals, there will be an endless amount of threads on this board suggesting that LeBron is finished or KD/Steph are the two best players to ever walk planet earth. Debate will run rampant and the argument will be the casts around these players - because Steph and KD playing together SHOULD own LeBron's soul. No other player in NBA history has played a team like this. Doing the expected doesn't really change the status quo - that's the blessing and curse of being a Warriors fan right now.

[Starboy]

Yes, I guess Dirk should be the best player right now since he faced 3 All-NBA players 6 years ago and actually beat them....Doesn't work like that. Lebron wont be the best player if he doesn't perform like the best player, regardless of some delusional narrative you have in your head.

[Impuniti]

KD is having a better season than LeBron. But last year Steph had a MUCH better season than LeBron, and we saw what happened in the finals.

Regardless - let's say KD goes nuts in the 2nd half, wins MVP and FMVP sweeping the Cavs 4 straight. Before posting that you now think KD is better than LeBron, do this exercise:

Imagine a game between

The current Warriors
vs.
The current Warriors with LeBron instead of KD

Imagine what happens in this game. Stop yourself from posting that KD is better than LeBron.

If Warriors sweep the Cavs and Curry or KD owns Lebron's soul along the way, no amount of crying or whining from Cav fans is going to change that 1/2 two players is better than Lebron. Lebron is the best player in the world until the finals again this year, and what happens then will determine who wears the crown.

No amount of crying? Okay..

It's really not that easy to judge. I will admit that if the Warriors own the Cavs this year in the finals that Steph/Klay/KD/Draymond are better than LeBron/Kyrie/Love. Sounds like you're ready to hold it against LeBron that he doesn't have the best supporting cast of all time, which obviously makes a difference

I'm not holding it against anyone. If he loses, he loses. I just think the idea that Lebron would be the best player in the world if he gets outplayed in the finals and loses is ridiculous.

[bmurph128]

If Warriors sweep the Cavs and Curry or KD owns Lebron's soul along the way, no amount of crying or whining from Cav fans is going to change that 1/2 two players is better than Lebron. Lebron is the best player in the world until the finals again this year, and what happens then will determine who wears the crown.

No amount of crying? Okay..

It's really not that easy to judge. I will admit that if the Warriors own the Cavs this year in the finals that Steph/Klay/KD/Draymond are better than LeBron/Kyrie/Love. Sounds like you're ready to hold it against LeBron that he doesn't have the best supporting cast of all time, which obviously makes a difference

I'm not holding it against anyone. If he loses, he loses. I just think the idea that Lebron would be the best player in the world if he gets outplayed in the finals and loses is ridiculous.

Outplayed in what context though? There comes a point where as a team you could be so inferior that greatness doesn't win out. It's an extreme example but:

Me and Michael Jordan in his prime would get beaten badly by Courtney Lee and Avery Bradley, despite the fact that prime MJ was the greatest player of all time.

Take out KD and LeBron and compare the Cavs and Warriors. Nobody is replacing LeBron as the best player this season. Eventually he will decline and he won't be the best. But we don't really judge who the best player is on a year-by-year basis. If we did there would be a new "best player" every year.

This is probably a moot point because odds are he will play very well, win or lose. I'm probably figuring that into my thought process here. LeBron was clearly the best player on the court in the past two finals and I doubt that would change if we play in the finals again this year. I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

[Impuniti]

No amount of crying? Okay..

It's really not that easy to judge. I will admit that if the Warriors own the Cavs this year in the finals that Steph/Klay/KD/Draymond are better than LeBron/Kyrie/Love. Sounds like you're ready to hold it against LeBron that he doesn't have the best supporting cast of all time, which obviously makes a difference

I'm not holding it against anyone. If he loses, he loses. I just think the idea that Lebron would be the best player in the world if he gets outplayed in the finals and loses is ridiculous.

Outplayed in what context though? There comes a point where as a team you could be so inferior that greatness doesn't win out. It's an extreme example but:

Me and Michael Jordan in his prime would get beaten badly by Courtney Lee and Avery Bradley, despite the fact that prime MJ was the greatest player of all time.

Take out KD and LeBron and compare the Cavs and Warriors. Nobody is replacing LeBron as the best player this season. Eventually he will decline and he won't be the best. But we don't really judge who the best player is on a year-by-year basis. If we did there would be a new "best player" every year.

This is probably a moot point because odds are he will play very well, win or lose. I'm probably figuring that into my thought process here. LeBron was clearly the best player on the court in the past two finals and I doubt that would change if we play in the finals again this year. I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

This is a delusional POV beyond being ridiculously arrogant. If he gets outplayed by 1 or both Steph and KD as he loses, he won't be better than either 1 or 2 depending how it goes. If you want to believe he is better in a situation where he is getting outplayed by one of those two and loses and still remains the best in the world, believe what you want. Doesn't make it any close to reality or a debatable argument.

[bmurph128]

I'm not holding it against anyone. If he loses, he loses. I just think the idea that Lebron would be the best player in the world if he gets outplayed in the finals and loses is ridiculous.

Outplayed in what context though? There comes a point where as a team you could be so inferior that greatness doesn't win out. It's an extreme example but:

Me and Michael Jordan in his prime would get beaten badly by Courtney Lee and Avery Bradley, despite the fact that prime MJ was the greatest player of all time.

Take out KD and LeBron and compare the Cavs and Warriors. Nobody is replacing LeBron as the best player this season. Eventually he will decline and he won't be the best. But we don't really judge who the best player is on a year-by-year basis. If we did there would be a new "best player" every year.

This is probably a moot point because odds are he will play very well, win or lose. I'm probably figuring that into my thought process here. LeBron was clearly the best player on the court in the past two finals and I doubt that would change if we play in the finals again this year. I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

This is a delusional POV beyond being ridiculously arrogant. If he gets outplayed by 1 or both Steph and KD as he loses, he won't be better than either 1 or 2 depending how it goes. If you want to believe he is better in a situation where he is getting outplayed by one of those two and loses and still remains the best in the world, believe what you want. Doesn't make it any close to reality or a debatable argument.

No it's a pretty clear cut argument. If you have to play against better players, it's going to be more difficult for you. Not sure how you don't see that. It's not as simple as "player X outplaying player Y".

Kyrie outplays Steph more often than not when they go head to head - do you think Kyrie is the better player? There are circumstances that surround how a series plays out - nobody said that Kyrie was better than Steph after last years finals despite the outcome and the fact that Kyrie clearly outplayed him. Not sure why you think it's a guarantee that Steph or KD would be thought of as better in the same scenario.

I'll admit that the people who want to see LeBron dethroned will argue that's what happened if the Warriors win the finals. It'll be an interesting debate if that occurs.

FYI - there was nothing arrogant about my previous post, so not sure where you get that from.

[Hero]

I misread the earlier statement as one title would put KD over LeBron all time. My bad.

The current discussion is difficult. He has to do so much less than other stars like Harden, LeBron, Westbrook etc. Even if he wins FMVP, how much does it mean when he joined a 73 win team. Not that much..(unless he puts up crazy numbers and dominates)

[michaelm]

I misread the earlier statement as one title would put KD over LeBron all time. My bad.

The current discussion is difficult. He has to do so much less than other stars like Harden, LeBron, Westbrook etc. Even if he wins FMVP, how much does it mean when he joined a 73 win team. Not that much..(unless he puts up crazy numbers and dominates)

The current discussion is more than difficult, it is ridiculous, as heatedly arguing about what hasn't happened and may never happen always is.

LeBron undoubtedly deserves to be rated the best player while the Cavs are the reigning champions largely due to him, and although he is not playing at that level in the regular season that doesn't mean he can't in the play-offs as history records he has done previously.

We can have a discussion concerning whether his post season play indicates that the status quo holds when we have seen the quality of his post season play, and that of his rivals. I for one am keen to see whether Curry can play at his regular season level with an unsprained knee ligament.

[Impuniti]

Outplayed in what context though? There comes a point where as a team you could be so inferior that greatness doesn't win out. It's an extreme example but:

Me and Michael Jordan in his prime would get beaten badly by Courtney Lee and Avery Bradley, despite the fact that prime MJ was the greatest player of all time.

Take out KD and LeBron and compare the Cavs and Warriors. Nobody is replacing LeBron as the best player this season. Eventually he will decline and he won't be the best. But we don't really judge who the best player is on a year-by-year basis. If we did there would be a new "best player" every year.

This is probably a moot point because odds are he will play very well, win or lose. I'm probably figuring that into my thought process here. LeBron was clearly the best player on the court in the past two finals and I doubt that would change if we play in the finals again this year. I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

This is a delusional POV beyond being ridiculously arrogant. If he gets outplayed by 1 or both Steph and KD as he loses, he won't be better than either 1 or 2 depending how it goes. If you want to believe he is better in a situation where he is getting outplayed by one of those two and loses and still remains the best in the world, believe what you want. Doesn't make it any close to reality or a debatable argument.

No it's a pretty clear cut argument. If you have to play against better players, it's going to be more difficult for you. Not sure how you don't see that. It's not as simple as "player X outplaying player Y".

Kyrie outplays Steph more often than not when they go head to head - do you think Kyrie is the better player? There are circumstances that surround how a series plays out - nobody said that Kyrie was better than Steph after last years finals despite the outcome and the fact that Kyrie clearly outplayed him. Not sure why you think it's a guarantee that Steph or KD would be thought of as better in the same scenario.

I'll admit that the people who want to see LeBron dethroned will argue that's what happened if the Warriors win the finals. It'll be an interesting debate if that occurs.

FYI - there was nothing arrogant about my previous post, so not sure where you get that from.

No it isn't, it's homer argument without much basis. Cavs can still lose without Lebron getting outplayed. Anyways you can keep parroting this narrative all you want, you will just sound like some crazy old man yelling in the streets. If the Warriors and Cavs make the final and one of the 2 superstars from the Warriors dominate, the narrative will be that they are the best in the world. You on the other hand, can hold on to imaginary moral victories that don't fall in line with reality.

[StepBackCrack]

This is a delusional POV beyond being ridiculously arrogant. If he gets outplayed by 1 or both Steph and KD as he loses, he won't be better than either 1 or 2 depending how it goes. If you want to believe he is better in a situation where he is getting outplayed by one of those two and loses and still remains the best in the world, believe what you want. Doesn't make it any close to reality or a debatable argument.

No it's a pretty clear cut argument. If you have to play against better players, it's going to be more difficult for you. Not sure how you don't see that. It's not as simple as "player X outplaying player Y".

Kyrie outplays Steph more often than not when they go head to head - do you think Kyrie is the better player? There are circumstances that surround how a series plays out - nobody said that Kyrie was better than Steph after last years finals despite the outcome and the fact that Kyrie clearly outplayed him. Not sure why you think it's a guarantee that Steph or KD would be thought of as better in the same scenario.

I'll admit that the people who want to see LeBron dethroned will argue that's what happened if the Warriors win the finals. It'll be an interesting debate if that occurs.

FYI - there was nothing arrogant about my previous post, so not sure where you get that from.

No it isn't, it's homer argument without much basis. Cavs can still lose without Lebron getting outplayed. Anyways you can keep parroting this narrative all you want, you will just sound like some crazy old man yelling in the streets. If the Warriors and Cavs make the final and one of the 2 superstars from the Warriors dominate, the narrative will be that they are the best in the world. You on the other hand, can hold on to imaginary moral victories that don't fall in line with reality.

Pretty much. Those who think that LeBron should be considered the best even if he gets outplayed by Durant or Curry in the playoffs/finals are delusional. Finals performance from last season is pretty much what is keeping LeBron at the top when it comes to best player discussions. If he gets outplayed by Curry or Durant in the finals this year, then one of them deserve to be called the best in the world. Period.

[jpm312]

MVP.

Read on Twitter

[K_chile22]

MVP.

Read on Twitter

[PeptoKlepto]

Updated on/off

Curry +15.6
Westbrook +15.5
James +12.1
Durant +8.2
Harden +4.9
Thomas -1.0
Leonard -1.9

[NinjaSheppard]

Updated on/off

Curry +15.6
Westbrook +15.5
James +12.1
Durant +8.2
Harden +4.9
Thomas -1.0
Leonard -1.9

Chris Paul

+21.5

[PeptoKlepto]

Updated on/off

Curry +15.6
Westbrook +15.5
James +12.1
Durant +8.2
Harden +4.9
Thomas -1.0
Leonard -1.9

Chris Paul

+21.5

Unfortunately, he's off the MVP radar now that he's missed so many games. I bet he would've been in the lead today had he not gotten hurt. His RPM is off the charts, too.

[NinjaSheppard]

Updated on/off

Curry +15.6
Westbrook +15.5
James +12.1
Durant +8.2
Harden +4.9
Thomas -1.0
Leonard -1.9

Chris Paul

+21.5

Unfortunately, he's off the MVP radar now that he's missed so many games. I bet he would've been in the lead today had he not gotten hurt. His RPM is off the charts, too.

Oh I know I was just interested in seeing what his on/off was after seeing that post and +21.5 blew my mind.

[K_chile22]

Updated on/off

Curry +15.6
Westbrook +15.5
James +12.1
Durant +8.2
Harden +4.9
Thomas -1.0
Leonard -1.9

Chris Paul

+21.5

Kyle Lowry +15.9