2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[RCM88x]

Updated on/off

Curry +15.6
Westbrook +15.5
James +12.1
Durant +8.2
Harden +4.9
Thomas -1.0
Leonard -1.9

Chris Paul

+21.5

Kyle Lowry +15.9

John Wall +12.4 (MVP darkhorse IMO)
Jimmy Butler +11.7
George Hill +11.4

[Starboy]

John Wall should be top 5 if they end up the second seed. I think he's on the brink of entering the top 5 pending Monday's game

[nbafan38]

This is a delusional POV beyond being ridiculously arrogant. If he gets outplayed by 1 or both Steph and KD as he loses, he won't be better than either 1 or 2 depending how it goes. If you want to believe he is better in a situation where he is getting outplayed by one of those two and loses and still remains the best in the world, believe what you want. Doesn't make it any close to reality or a debatable argument.

No it's a pretty clear cut argument. If you have to play against better players, it's going to be more difficult for you. Not sure how you don't see that. It's not as simple as "player X outplaying player Y".

Kyrie outplays Steph more often than not when they go head to head - do you think Kyrie is the better player? There are circumstances that surround how a series plays out - nobody said that Kyrie was better than Steph after last years finals despite the outcome and the fact that Kyrie clearly outplayed him. Not sure why you think it's a guarantee that Steph or KD would be thought of as better in the same scenario.

I'll admit that the people who want to see LeBron dethroned will argue that's what happened if the Warriors win the finals. It'll be an interesting debate if that occurs.

FYI - there was nothing arrogant about my previous post, so not sure where you get that from.

No it isn't, it's homer argument without much basis. Cavs can still lose without Lebron getting outplayed. Anyways you can keep parroting this narrative all you want, you will just sound like some crazy old man yelling in the streets. If the Warriors and Cavs make the final and one of the 2 superstars from the Warriors dominate, the narrative will be that they are the best in the world. You on the other hand, can hold on to imaginary moral victories that don't fall in line with reality.

Not necessarily, ifLebron plays great but still loses because the warriors TEAM is far superior it will not necessarily mean Lebron is no longer the best in the world. It even almost happened last year where people were considering given Lebron the MVP of the series even if they lost in 7 games and now he's at an even greater disadvantage than last year vs the warriors.

[TMU]

John Wall should be top 5 if they end up the second seed. I think he's on the brink of entering the top 5 pending Monday's game

That's a great point. I think he will be mentioned if the Wizards finish 2nd, but as much as I like John Wall, he's still behind the Top 4 nominees in Westbrook, Harden, Durant, and LeBron (in no particular order).

[PeptoKlepto]

As of 2/5 -

Russell Westbrook
James Harden

Stephen Curry
LeBron James
Kevin Durant

Kawhi Leonard
John Wall
Kyle Lowry
Isaiah Thomas

[Hero]

John Wall should be top 5 if they end up the second seed. I think he's on the brink of entering the top 5 pending Monday's game

Sure if he can keep it up till he be of the season. Pretty solid turnaround so far.

[bmurph128]

This is a delusional POV beyond being ridiculously arrogant. If he gets outplayed by 1 or both Steph and KD as he loses, he won't be better than either 1 or 2 depending how it goes. If you want to believe he is better in a situation where he is getting outplayed by one of those two and loses and still remains the best in the world, believe what you want. Doesn't make it any close to reality or a debatable argument.

No it's a pretty clear cut argument. If you have to play against better players, it's going to be more difficult for you. Not sure how you don't see that. It's not as simple as "player X outplaying player Y".

Kyrie outplays Steph more often than not when they go head to head - do you think Kyrie is the better player? There are circumstances that surround how a series plays out - nobody said that Kyrie was better than Steph after last years finals despite the outcome and the fact that Kyrie clearly outplayed him. Not sure why you think it's a guarantee that Steph or KD would be thought of as better in the same scenario.

I'll admit that the people who want to see LeBron dethroned will argue that's what happened if the Warriors win the finals. It'll be an interesting debate if that occurs.

FYI - there was nothing arrogant about my previous post, so not sure where you get that from.

No it isn't, it's homer argument without much basis. Cavs can still lose without Lebron getting outplayed. Anyways you can keep parroting this narrative all you want, you will just sound like some crazy old man yelling in the streets. If the Warriors and Cavs make the final and one of the 2 superstars from the Warriors dominate, the narrative will be that they are the best in the world. You on the other hand, can hold on to imaginary moral victories that don't fall in line with reality.

Okay I can get on board with that.

So just to be clear - Kyrie outplayed Steph last year in the finals, so you think Kyrie is better than Steph?

[Lanky Gunner]

https://nbacouchside.com/no-isaiah-thomas-doesnt-belong-in-the-mvp-conversation-d693ce6bfe2#.o5o6yi24j

Code: Select all

 It is to Thomas’s immense credit that he is able to overcome his massive defensive shortcomings to still be a player with a positive impact. It takes an absolutely Herculean offensive impact to counterbalance defense this bad. That makes him a fun player and a joy to watch, but it doesn’t make him an MVP candidate.

[Impuniti]

Not necessarily, ifLebron plays great but still loses because the warriors TEAM is far superior it will not necessarily mean Lebron is no longer the best in the world. It even almost happened last year where people were considering given Lebron the MVP of the series even if they lost in 7 games and now he's at an even greater disadvantage than last year vs the warriors.

Did you actually read my posts or not? Because it doesn't sound like it.

Okay I can get on board with that.

So just to be clear - Kyrie outplayed Steph last year in the finals, so you think Kyrie is better than Steph?

He was better than an injured Steph Curry. Nothing I like to see more than Kyrie vs Steph in this year's playoffs with them going at it. By your logic, Dirk was the best player in the world for 2-3 years since Lebron couldn't beat him after 2011. I wish everyone would have gotten the memo though!

[bmurph128]

Not necessarily, ifLebron plays great but still loses because the warriors TEAM is far superior it will not necessarily mean Lebron is no longer the best in the world. It even almost happened last year where people were considering given Lebron the MVP of the series even if they lost in 7 games and now he's at an even greater disadvantage than last year vs the warriors.

Did you actually read my posts or not? Because it doesn't sound like it.

Okay I can get on board with that.

So just to be clear - Kyrie outplayed Steph last year in the finals, so you think Kyrie is better than Steph?

He was better than an injured Steph Curry. Nothing I like to see more than Kyrie vs Steph in this year's playoffs with them going at it. By your logic, Dirk was the best player in the world for 2-3 years since Lebron couldn't beat him after 2011. I wish everyone would have gotten the memo though!

Actually, that's not my logic. I'm arguing that just because someone beats or outplays you, doesn't make you better than them.

You're arguing that if Steph/KD beat and outplay LeBron, that they are better than them. So by your logic, Dirk was better than LeBron following that finals series - yet nobody thought that. That parallel does apply to our discussion here, but applying it this would be you saying Dirk was better than LeBron because he outplayed him. The Mavericks (like the Warriors), had a much better team in that series, which is why they won. The best player in that series played a bad series and ultimately got outplayed - but he was still the best player in the NBA.

So wait - you called me a homer and talked about imaginary moral victories for LeBron but then you brought up Steph being injured? I guess he was healthy enough to outplay Westbrook in the conference finals but not Kyrie in the finals? Come on now.

Kyrie outplayed Steph, but that doesn't mean that he's better than Steph. Just like if KD outplays LeBron this year, it doesn't mean he's better than LeBron.

[Impuniti]

Not necessarily, ifLebron plays great but still loses because the warriors TEAM is far superior it will not necessarily mean Lebron is no longer the best in the world. It even almost happened last year where people were considering given Lebron the MVP of the series even if they lost in 7 games and now he's at an even greater disadvantage than last year vs the warriors.

Did you actually read my posts or not? Because it doesn't sound like it.

Okay I can get on board with that.

So just to be clear - Kyrie outplayed Steph last year in the finals, so you think Kyrie is better than Steph?

He was better than an injured Steph Curry. Nothing I like to see more than Kyrie vs Steph in this year's playoffs with them going at it. By your logic, Dirk was the best player in the world for 2-3 years since Lebron couldn't beat him after 2011. I wish everyone would have gotten the memo though!

Actually, that's not my logic. I'm arguing that just because someone beats or outplays you, doesn't make you better than them.

You're arguing that if Steph/KD beat and outplay LeBron, that they are better than them. So by your logic, Dirk was better than LeBron following that finals series - yet nobody thought that. That parallel does apply to our discussion here, but applying it this would be you saying Dirk was better than LeBron because he outplayed him. The Mavericks (like the Warriors), had a much better team in that series, which is why they won. The best player in that series played a bad series and ultimately got outplayed - but he was still the best player in the NBA.

So wait - you called me a homer and talked about imaginary moral victories for LeBron but then you brought up Steph being injured? I guess he was healthy enough to outplay Westbrook in the conference finals but not Kyrie in the finals? Come on now.

Kyrie outplayed Steph, but that doesn't mean that he's better than Steph. Just like if KD outplays LeBron this year, it doesn't mean he's better than LeBron.

Again that narrative other than to the LeBron fans will not = reality. While there are exceptions when you get the 3 best players in the world playing against each other, the last one standing presuming they play well will end holding the crown. Lebron isn't going to get some special exclusion because you want it to. If Lebron has a 16' final where he clearly outplays both Steph and KD, that's another story but loses in a tight game, that's different.

It's not an excuse that Steph was injured, but I understand Cavs fans love mental gymnastics. There was a river of tears in 2015 on Love and Kyrie being injured but none of you wanted to hear it at all in 2016 when the tables flipped.

As for Mavs having a better team in that series..

[bmurph128]

Did you actually read my posts or not? Because it doesn't sound like it.

He was better than an injured Steph Curry. Nothing I like to see more than Kyrie vs Steph in this year's playoffs with them going at it. By your logic, Dirk was the best player in the world for 2-3 years since Lebron couldn't beat him after 2011. I wish everyone would have gotten the memo though!

Actually, that's not my logic. I'm arguing that just because someone beats or outplays you, doesn't make you better than them.

You're arguing that if Steph/KD beat and outplay LeBron, that they are better than them. So by your logic, Dirk was better than LeBron following that finals series - yet nobody thought that. That parallel does apply to our discussion here, but applying it this would be you saying Dirk was better than LeBron because he outplayed him. The Mavericks (like the Warriors), had a much better team in that series, which is why they won. The best player in that series played a bad series and ultimately got outplayed - but he was still the best player in the NBA.

So wait - you called me a homer and talked about imaginary moral victories for LeBron but then you brought up Steph being injured? I guess he was healthy enough to outplay Westbrook in the conference finals but not Kyrie in the finals? Come on now.

Kyrie outplayed Steph, but that doesn't mean that he's better than Steph. Just like if KD outplays LeBron this year, it doesn't mean he's better than LeBron.

Again that narrative other than to the LeBron fans will not = reality. While there are exceptions when you get the 3 best players in the world playing against each other, the last one standing presuming they play well will end holding the crown. Lebron isn't going to get some special exclusion because you want it to. If Lebron has a 16' final where he clearly outplays both Steph and KD, that's another story but loses in a tight game, that's different.

It's not an excuse that Steph was injured, but I understand Cavs fans love mental gymnastics. There was a river of tears in 2015 on Love and Kyrie being injured but none of you wanted to hear it at all in 2016 when the tables flipped.

As for Mavs having a better team in that series..

I provided two example in which a better player lost to an inferior player AND was outplayed, to which you have no argument. You want Steph and KD to be better than LeBron, so you're arguing this point. You've lost touch with reality a bit here. I have no doubt that Warrior fans will proclaim that LeBron has been dethroned if the Warriors win the finals, but most neutral fans will understand that it's possible to be outplayed by a better team while still being the better individual player. Your response is a sentence that grammatically makes no sense ("Again that narrative other than to the LeBron fans will not = reality"); then you compare Kyrie and Love missing all but one game of the finals to Steph who missed no games in the finals - that's a bias and homerism that cannot be matched so I will stop this conversation here. I've derailed it too much anyways.

I'm not a LeBron fan though, I'm a Cavs fan.

[nbafan38]

Did you actually read my posts or not? Because it doesn't sound like it.

He was better than an injured Steph Curry. Nothing I like to see more than Kyrie vs Steph in this year's playoffs with them going at it. By your logic, Dirk was the best player in the world for 2-3 years since Lebron couldn't beat him after 2011. I wish everyone would have gotten the memo though!

Actually, that's not my logic. I'm arguing that just because someone beats or outplays you, doesn't make you better than them.

You're arguing that if Steph/KD beat and outplay LeBron, that they are better than them. So by your logic, Dirk was better than LeBron following that finals series - yet nobody thought that. That parallel does apply to our discussion here, but applying it this would be you saying Dirk was better than LeBron because he outplayed him. The Mavericks (like the Warriors), had a much better team in that series, which is why they won. The best player in that series played a bad series and ultimately got outplayed - but he was still the best player in the NBA.

So wait - you called me a homer and talked about imaginary moral victories for LeBron but then you brought up Steph being injured? I guess he was healthy enough to outplay Westbrook in the conference finals but not Kyrie in the finals? Come on now.

Kyrie outplayed Steph, but that doesn't mean that he's better than Steph. Just like if KD outplays LeBron this year, it doesn't mean he's better than LeBron.

Again that narrative other than to the LeBron fans will not = reality. While there are exceptions when you get the 3 best players in the world playing against each other, the last one standing presuming they play well will end holding the crown. Lebron isn't going to get some special exclusion because you want it to. If Lebron has a 16' final where he clearly outplays both Steph and KD, that's another story but loses in a tight game, that's different.

It's not an excuse that Steph was injured, but I understand Cavs fans love mental gymnastics. There was a river of tears in 2015 on Love and Kyrie being injured but none of you wanted to hear it at all in 2016 when the tables flipped.

As for Mavs having a better team in that series..

Steph himself said he wasn't injured and he was dominant in the blazers series when he played and dominant inparts of the thunder series so no I'm not really buying the injury excuse. I agree if Durant and/or Steph outplay Lebron and win the finals they may be considered the best at this point of Lebrons career but Lebron would always be seen as the superior all time player.

[Impuniti]

Actually, that's not my logic. I'm arguing that just because someone beats or outplays you, doesn't make you better than them.

You're arguing that if Steph/KD beat and outplay LeBron, that they are better than them. So by your logic, Dirk was better than LeBron following that finals series - yet nobody thought that. That parallel does apply to our discussion here, but applying it this would be you saying Dirk was better than LeBron because he outplayed him. The Mavericks (like the Warriors), had a much better team in that series, which is why they won. The best player in that series played a bad series and ultimately got outplayed - but he was still the best player in the NBA.

So wait - you called me a homer and talked about imaginary moral victories for LeBron but then you brought up Steph being injured? I guess he was healthy enough to outplay Westbrook in the conference finals but not Kyrie in the finals? Come on now.

Kyrie outplayed Steph, but that doesn't mean that he's better than Steph. Just like if KD outplays LeBron this year, it doesn't mean he's better than LeBron.

Again that narrative other than to the LeBron fans will not = reality. While there are exceptions when you get the 3 best players in the world playing against each other, the last one standing presuming they play well will end holding the crown. Lebron isn't going to get some special exclusion because you want it to. If Lebron has a 16' final where he clearly outplays both Steph and KD, that's another story but loses in a tight game, that's different.

It's not an excuse that Steph was injured, but I understand Cavs fans love mental gymnastics. There was a river of tears in 2015 on Love and Kyrie being injured but none of you wanted to hear it at all in 2016 when the tables flipped.

As for Mavs having a better team in that series..

Steph himself said he wasn't injured and he was dominant in the blazers series when he played and dominant inparts of the thunder series so no I'm not really buying the injury excuse. I agree if Durant and/or Steph outplay Lebron and win the finals they may be considered the best at this point of Lebrons career but Lebron would always be seen as the superior all time player.

I'm going to address you instead of the guy still in la la land above your post, but I just disagree with that POV. Steph played like garbage in that Blazer game when he was back by the way.. except for the last 7-8 minutes. He moved slow, sluggish and was all over the place. He's been better than RS in previous years other than last season. There's no point doing this song and dance all over, lets just wait until playoffs and see what he does then. I really just hope that we get lucky enough to see the trilogy with both teams fit this time around and settle that score.

[PeptoKlepto]

Updated +/-

Westbrook +16.4
Curry +15.8
Lowry +15.6
James +12.5
Wall +11.8
Durant +8.7
Harden +3.1
Thomas -.5
Leonard -1.8

I can't imagine myself giving the MVP to Thomas or Leonard with such a far removed +/-. Harden is dropping considerably as well.

[K_chile22]

Updated +/-

Westbrook +16.4
Curry +15.8
Lowry +15.6
James +12.5
Wall +11.8
Durant +8.7
Harden +3.1
Thomas -.5
Leonard -1.8

I can't imagine myself giving the MVP to Thomas or Leonard with such a far removed +/-. Harden is dropping considerably as well.

Things like Kawhi being a - have really turned me off to raw on/off stuff. If your bench kicks other benches asses, your penalized

[PeptoKlepto]

Updated +/-

Westbrook +16.4
Curry +15.8
Lowry +15.6
James +12.5
Wall +11.8
Durant +8.7
Harden +3.1
Thomas -.5
Leonard -1.8

I can't imagine myself giving the MVP to Thomas or Leonard with such a far removed +/-. Harden is dropping considerably as well.

Things like Kawhi being a - have really turned me off to raw on/off stuff. If your bench kicks other benches asses, your penalized

Isn't that part of the supporting cast argument, though? Leonard isn't even average among these guys...he's considerably lower. It's not an end all, to be sure, but it's a red flag.

[K_chile22]

Updated +/-

Westbrook +16.4
Curry +15.8
Lowry +15.6
James +12.5
Wall +11.8
Durant +8.7
Harden +3.1
Thomas -.5
Leonard -1.8

I can't imagine myself giving the MVP to Thomas or Leonard with such a far removed +/-. Harden is dropping considerably as well.

Things like Kawhi being a - have really turned me off to raw on/off stuff. If your bench kicks other benches asses, your penalized

Isn't that part of the supporting cast argument, though? Leonard isn't even average among these guys...he's considerably lower. It's not an end all, to be sure, but it's a red flag.

Kawhi is the only all star on a 60+ win team. I don't care if he has a good bench. He's extremely valuable.

[PeptoKlepto]

Things like Kawhi being a - have really turned me off to raw on/off stuff. If your bench kicks other benches asses, your penalized

Isn't that part of the supporting cast argument, though? Leonard isn't even average among these guys...he's considerably lower. It's not an end all, to be sure, but it's a red flag.

Kawhi is the only all star on a 60+ win team. I don't care if he has a good bench. He's extremely valuable.

Not disputing that he's a great player or that he's valuable - but there's a huge discrepancy here in +/- that needs to be addressed. You can't ignore it. His +/- tells me that his backups do better vs. other backups than he does vs. other starters.

And save me that Leonard doesn't have any all-stars talk. He's got really good compilation of players around him to go along with the greatest HC of this generation.

[DubTheVanDamage]

Steph himself said he wasn't injured and he was dominant in the blazers series when he played and dominant inparts of the thunder series so no I'm not really buying the injury excuse. I agree if Durant and/or Steph outplay Lebron and win the finals they may be considered the best at this point of Lebrons career but Lebron would always be seen as the superior all time player.

While it's true that Steph claimed not to be injured during (and right after) the series, before training camp, one of his trainers mentioned that Steph spent 3 months recuperating after the finals from his injury. It was also telling that Curry was unable to beat Love 1-on-1 in the Finals, when we've seen him routinely beat quicker big men in similar situations.

We'll likely never know the true extent of the injury (or lack thereof), but, having seen a lot of Steph live and on TV, to me at least, he didn't look close to 100%. Even when he was shooting well (which he did in spurts), he wasn't moving well.

I provided two example in which a better player lost to an inferior player AND was outplayed, to which you have no argument. You want Steph and KD to be better than LeBron, so you're arguing this point. You've lost touch with reality a bit here. I have no doubt that Warrior fans will proclaim that LeBron has been dethroned if the Warriors win the finals, but most neutral fans will understand that it's possible to be outplayed by a better team while still being the better individual player.

Just to hop in here, I think you two are mostly talking past each other and neither of you are wrong.

For example, last year, Curry was widely viewed as having a better regular season than LeBron. Had Curry gone gangbusters in the playoffs and put up 40 points per game on great efficiency, crushing the Cavs and outplaying LeBron in the finals, the basketball world would have proclaimed Curry the best player in the world, right? We're not just talking about the Warriors winning but Curry outplaying LeBron. The narrative was in place for the passing of the crown after the regular season but the playoffs didn't 'prove it'.

Likewise, if Curry puts up better regular season stats than Kyrie but the Cavs and Warriors meet in the finals the next two years and Kyrie clearly outplays Curry, the narrative likely will be that Kyrie is the better player -- or at least when it matters.

Now, perception and reality can be different -- one season or a few playoffs may not be enough of a sample size. Likewise, team situations vary and other mitigating factors like injury and fatigue can exist. I imagine if, hypothetically speaking, Durant greatly outplays LeBron in the finals this year, any 'minutes played' arguments will fall on deaf ears, even if valid. Heck, as detailed above, I truly believe that Curry was significantly hindered during the Finals but the Warriors flat-out got beaten by the Cavs.