The Trade Thread II

[LBPTarHeel27]

My daily rant..

I do not want Magic to give Serge $120M, especially with how he started declining at 25!! We are not even sure how old Serge really is. Trade him to a playoff team for some young talent or picks. A Serge rental should still net some positive assets.

We also need to trade Evan "Only pass to Vuc" Fournier. He's on a fair contract and can help another team win something. I do not want him on the Magic, because it seems like he wants to be "the guy" but isn't good enough. I truly believe hes interfering with the development of AG. Do they even like each other?

Now I'm not sure what to do with Vuc, but if we can get a early first round pick for him then I'm all for it.

We need to do what PHX is doing which is committing to developing our young talent for the future. Our team is nowhere close to winning anything at the moment. Let Mario, Gordon, and Elf run the team to see what they're capable of. Trading Vuc, Serge, and Fournier will allow us to tank for a top 4 pick along with the assets we get back. Start over the rebuilding process and stop signing aging role players like Green, Augustine, Watson, and Frye.

I'm a die-hard Magic fan, but this season have been so frustrating to watch. No excitement watching a bad Magic team wasting their draft position trying to make the playoff.
A lineup of Elf, Watson, Mario, Gordon, Biz will guaranteed us to win less than 5 games to finish the season.

so we trade Harris, because people say he wants to "be the guy". We trade Dipo, because he wants to "be the guy". Now we trade Evan for the same reason. Will we look to trade Elf or Gordon next year, because they want to "be the guy"?

Based on what I heard from Henny, that assessment is actually pretty spot on. We traded Harris because he was trying to be the guy and failed. Same with Dipo. The same thing is happening with Evan. However, I think that Evan's game is better suited to eventually slide back in to a supporting role, once we actually get "the guy". At the end of the day, we are giving our young talents the opportunity to break out and be "the guy"....the problem is that no one has been capable of wearing that crown.

I could absolutely see us moving AG or Elf. IMO, they are far from being untouchable building blocks and Henny seemed to feel that way, as well. They aren't being trade because they want to be "the guy", they are being traded because they can't be "the guy" and that is what this team needs more than anything.

[tiderulz]

My daily rant..

I do not want Magic to give Serge $120M, especially with how he started declining at 25!! We are not even sure how old Serge really is. Trade him to a playoff team for some young talent or picks. A Serge rental should still net some positive assets.

We also need to trade Evan "Only pass to Vuc" Fournier. He's on a fair contract and can help another team win something. I do not want him on the Magic, because it seems like he wants to be "the guy" but isn't good enough. I truly believe hes interfering with the development of AG. Do they even like each other?

Now I'm not sure what to do with Vuc, but if we can get a early first round pick for him then I'm all for it.

We need to do what PHX is doing which is committing to developing our young talent for the future. Our team is nowhere close to winning anything at the moment. Let Mario, Gordon, and Elf run the team to see what they're capable of. Trading Vuc, Serge, and Fournier will allow us to tank for a top 4 pick along with the assets we get back. Start over the rebuilding process and stop signing aging role players like Green, Augustine, Watson, and Frye.

I'm a die-hard Magic fan, but this season have been so frustrating to watch. No excitement watching a bad Magic team wasting their draft position trying to make the playoff.
A lineup of Elf, Watson, Mario, Gordon, Biz will guaranteed us to win less than 5 games to finish the season.

so we trade Harris, because people say he wants to "be the guy". We trade Dipo, because he wants to "be the guy". Now we trade Evan for the same reason. Will we look to trade Elf or Gordon next year, because they want to "be the guy"?

Based on what I heard from Henny, that assessment is actually pretty spot on. We traded Harris because he was trying to be the guy and failed. Same with Dipo. The same thing is happening with Evan. However, I think that Evan's game is better suited to eventually slide back in to a supporting role, once we actually get "the guy". At the end of the day, we are giving our young talents the opportunity to break out and be "the guy"....the problem is that no one has been capable of wearing that crown.

I could absolutely see us moving AG or Elf. IMO, they are far from being untouchable building blocks and Henny seemed to feel that way, as well. They aren't being trade because they want to be "the guy", they are being traded because they can't be "the guy" and that is what this team needs more than anything.

explain to me what is the definition of "trying to be the guy"? and why they couldnt have had supporting roles?

just seems every year, the Magic fan base wants to rip into its own players. AG is the only one that seems to have escaped this mostly. And he has the least amount of talent imo.

[Anti Chalmers]

My daily rant..

I do not want Magic to give Serge $120M, especially with how he started declining at 25!! We are not even sure how old Serge really is. Trade him to a playoff team for some young talent or picks. A Serge rental should still net some positive assets.

We also need to trade Evan "Only pass to Vuc" Fournier. He's on a fair contract and can help another team win something. I do not want him on the Magic, because it seems like he wants to be "the guy" but isn't good enough. I truly believe hes interfering with the development of AG. Do they even like each other?

Now I'm not sure what to do with Vuc, but if we can get a early first round pick for him then I'm all for it.

We need to do what PHX is doing which is committing to developing our young talent for the future. Our team is nowhere close to winning anything at the moment. Let Mario, Gordon, and Elf run the team to see what they're capable of. Trading Vuc, Serge, and Fournier will allow us to tank for a top 4 pick along with the assets we get back. Start over the rebuilding process and stop signing aging role players like Green, Augustine, Watson, and Frye.

I'm a die-hard Magic fan, but this season have been so frustrating to watch. No excitement watching a bad Magic team wasting their draft position trying to make the playoff.
A lineup of Elf, Watson, Mario, Gordon, Biz will guaranteed us to win less than 5 games to finish the season.

so we trade Harris, because people say he wants to "be the guy". We trade Dipo, because he wants to "be the guy". Now we trade Evan for the same reason. Will we look to trade Elf or Gordon next year, because they want to "be the guy"?

And how is Evan interfering with AG's development? I would honestly like to know.

I didn't like the Tobias trade tbh. Dipo was traded because Rob rather pay Evan which make sense. I could be using the term "be the guy" incorrectly or maybe I'm not watching the game closely enough to make a correct assessment for you to see it differently.

Evan have tunnel vision when it comes to passing to AG. I can't be the only one that notice Evan usually avoid passing to AG unless the clock is running out.

[Blue_and_Whte]

My daily rant..

I do not want Magic to give Serge $120M, especially with how he started declining at 25!! We are not even sure how old Serge really is. Trade him to a playoff team for some young talent or picks. A Serge rental should still net some positive assets.

We also need to trade Evan "Only pass to Vuc" Fournier. He's on a fair contract and can help another team win something. I do not want him on the Magic, because it seems like he wants to be "the guy" but isn't good enough. I truly believe hes interfering with the development of AG. Do they even like each other?

Now I'm not sure what to do with Vuc, but if we can get a early first round pick for him then I'm all for it.

We need to do what PHX is doing which is committing to developing our young talent for the future. Our team is nowhere close to winning anything at the moment. Let Mario, Gordon, and Elf run the team to see what they're capable of. Trading Vuc, Serge, and Fournier will allow us to tank for a top 4 pick along with the assets we get back. Start over the rebuilding process and stop signing aging role players like Green, Augustine, Watson, and Frye.

I'm a die-hard Magic fan, but this season have been so frustrating to watch. No excitement watching a bad Magic team wasting their draft position trying to make the playoff.
A lineup of Elf, Watson, Mario, Gordon, Biz will guaranteed us to win less than 5 games to finish the season.

so we trade Harris, because people say he wants to "be the guy". We trade Dipo, because he wants to "be the guy". Now we trade Evan for the same reason. Will we look to trade Elf or Gordon next year, because they want to "be the guy"?

And how is Evan interfering with AG's development? I would honestly like to know.

Yeah.... I don't see Evan trying to be "the guy".... I see him probably doing what he is told to do or asked of. Just my take.

Also seems reasonable to want to pass to Nik since he's the only other scorer on the team. Once again who else outside of Ibaka is he supposed to pass to? Evan gets so much underserved blame its hilarious.

[ralphie9898]

There is a reason he shots below 60% from the FT line... how are we going to close out games with him and Payton as our guards?

yeah I am not a big fan of Josh Jackson for us. I think he is a top prospect worthy of going in the top 5 but I would pas on him for Fultz or Lonzo Ball. I am done with perimeter prospects that can't shoot. If we remake this team and trade away Payton and Gordon and other pieces and basically start over then I would be ok with Jackson as if we more in a vacuum but as of right now I don't think Jackson would be the right pick. Of course we could do worse but I would go with a few other guys before Jackson but also we would have the to move up considering even having a choice to pick between Jackson or Fultz or Ball(unless we can get a trade which is even more questionable). So we shall see but I want a PG who profiles better as a shooter( I would be also be ok with a really good SG or Sf like Issac or Monk as well before Jackson but as I said we could do worse than Jackson so he isn't completely off the board but I do have guys ahead of him right now given the current state of the Magic roster.

With each game the big board shuffles.

But right here right now today... I feel Isaac is the perfect balance of team need and BPA for our likely #4-7 pick.

Say we trade Ibaka / Vuc and Gordon for a guy like Jimmy Butler. Then Dennis Smith or perhaps Molik Monk could be a great choice.

If we trade Elf then perhaps Ball or the French kid can be good choices?

But if we keep Elf slide Gordon to PF then I LOVE the idea of Isaac next to him at SF.

Jackson is a guy I wouldn't mind in any scenario. I'm not sure he is the best team fit choice right now but for our likely draft spot he could be the pure BPA choice.

Yeah it is a very fluid situation right now. The Trade deadline is coming and we seem to really want to make a deal. I think we should definitely trade Ibaka and whatever else we shall see. We may be looking for a new GM. Right now we are slated to be in the 6th spot and I just hope we don't make a deal that means more wins and would just look to sell for the future aka draft picks/young prospects. Yeah I don't mind Issac either. I like Fultz, Ball and Monk a little better but depending on where we are it is anyone's guess. I also like that Maurkkanen is an interesting choice after those three and Issac and Smith and the French kid. We shall see as first we gotta get past the trade deadline first.

[The Real Dalic]

so we trade Harris, because people say he wants to "be the guy". We trade Dipo, because he wants to "be the guy". Now we trade Evan for the same reason. Will we look to trade Elf or Gordon next year, because they want to "be the guy"?

And how is Evan interfering with AG's development? I would honestly like to know.

Yeah.... I don't see Evan trying to be "the guy".... I see him probably doing what he is told to do or asked of. Just my take.

Also seems reasonable to want to pass to Nik since he's the only other scorer on the team. Once again who else outside of Ibaka is he supposed to pass to? Evan gets so much underserved blame its hilarious.

I agree with the part about there not being many options to pass to, but I don't think that that should be up to Evan on who gets the ball or not. If he has a chance to give AG or Elf an open chance at a 3, Evan has to make that pass and trust his teammates to either take and make the shot, or make the right play, whether that be a pass or drive.

[LBPTarHeel27]

so we trade Harris, because people say he wants to "be the guy". We trade Dipo, because he wants to "be the guy". Now we trade Evan for the same reason. Will we look to trade Elf or Gordon next year, because they want to "be the guy"?

Based on what I heard from Henny, that assessment is actually pretty spot on. We traded Harris because he was trying to be the guy and failed. Same with Dipo. The same thing is happening with Evan. However, I think that Evan's game is better suited to eventually slide back in to a supporting role, once we actually get "the guy". At the end of the day, we are giving our young talents the opportunity to break out and be "the guy"....the problem is that no one has been capable of wearing that crown.

I could absolutely see us moving AG or Elf. IMO, they are far from being untouchable building blocks and Henny seemed to feel that way, as well. They aren't being trade because they want to be "the guy", they are being traded because they can't be "the guy" and that is what this team needs more than anything.

explain to me what is the definition of "trying to be the guy"? and why they couldnt have had supporting roles?

just seems every year, the Magic fan base wants to rip into its own players. AG is the only one that seems to have escaped this mostly. And he has the least amount of talent imo.

Someone you can run a consistent offensive system through...simple as that. We tried running it through Tobias, failed. We tried running it through Dipo, failed. We are giving Evan the opportunity and he is failing. You could say the same for Vuc.

I don't see that as ripping in to our own players...I see it as using my eyes. In 5 years, we haven't had anything better than players who should really be 3rd or 4th options on an average team. It'd be a different situation if we had traded Harris or Dipo and then they went on to blow up and lead a team to some level of success. Harris is showing that he is exactly what I said...a 3rd option on an average team. Dipo is being forced to be the 2nd option on an average team and isn't even doing a great job at that.

They can't have supporting roles because of the lack of a true "go to guy". Every player on our roster is being forced to fill roles and perform duties that take them away from what they do best. This results in an incredibly inconsistent offense. If we had someone capable of running an offense around...then sure, guys like Evan would fit amazingly well. Unfortunately, we don't have that...so you make moves to try and find a way to get "that guy". Again...unfortunately, we've been very unsuccessful at doing that.

[tiderulz]

Based on what I heard from Henny, that assessment is actually pretty spot on. We traded Harris because he was trying to be the guy and failed. Same with Dipo. The same thing is happening with Evan. However, I think that Evan's game is better suited to eventually slide back in to a supporting role, once we actually get "the guy". At the end of the day, we are giving our young talents the opportunity to break out and be "the guy"....the problem is that no one has been capable of wearing that crown.

I could absolutely see us moving AG or Elf. IMO, they are far from being untouchable building blocks and Henny seemed to feel that way, as well. They aren't being trade because they want to be "the guy", they are being traded because they can't be "the guy" and that is what this team needs more than anything.

explain to me what is the definition of "trying to be the guy"? and why they couldnt have had supporting roles?

just seems every year, the Magic fan base wants to rip into its own players. AG is the only one that seems to have escaped this mostly. And he has the least amount of talent imo.

Someone you can run a consistent offensive system through...simple as that. We tried running it through Tobias, failed. We tried running it through Dipo, failed. We are giving Evan the opportunity and he is failing. You could say the same for Vuc.

I don't see that as ripping in to our own players...I see it as using my eyes. In 5 years, we haven't had anything better than players who should really be 3rd or 4th options on an average team. It'd be a different situation if we had traded Harris or Dipo and then they went on to blow up and lead a team to some level of success. Harris is showing that he is exactly what I said...a 3rd option on an average team. Dipo is being forced to be the 2nd option on an average team and isn't even doing a great job at that.

They can't have supporting roles because of the lack of a true "go to guy". Every player on our roster is being forced to fill roles and perform duties that take them away from what they do best. This results in an incredibly inconsistent offense. If we had someone capable of running an offense around...then sure, guys like Evan would fit amazingly well. Unfortunately, we don't have that...so you make moves to try and find a way to get "that guy". Again...unfortunately, we've been very unsuccessful at doing that.

but why rip and trade away players, that just need the alpha dog? you need players like them at some point. Dipo and Harris are better players than AG and Elf by a wide margin, just as an example

[Blue_and_Whte]

Yeah.... I don't see Evan trying to be "the guy".... I see him probably doing what he is told to do or asked of. Just my take.

Also seems reasonable to want to pass to Nik since he's the only other scorer on the team. Once again who else outside of Ibaka is he supposed to pass to? Evan gets so much underserved blame its hilarious.

I agree with the part about their not being many options to pass to, but I don't think that that should be up to Evan on who gets the ball or not. If he has a chance to give AG or Elf an open chance at a 3, Evan has to make that pass and trust his teammates to either take and make the shot, or make the right play, whether that be a pass or drive.

Well using that logic shouldn't his teammates trust him to make the right play? So if you have a situation where you've got Jodie Meeks and Payton open on the perimeter with 3 seconds left who should Evan pass to? Wouldn't the right play be to pass the ball out to Meeks on the perimeter if he's open? Would that be fair to Payton in that scenario? If the scenario described happened, and he end up passing to Payton instead of Meeks people would STILL get on Evan for passing to wrong guy. I feel like its a lose lose for him.

He shouldn't be expected to pass to Payton out of sympathy if there are better options available. Obviously if Payton or AG are his choices then he should hit them but only secondary to trying to get his own shot because imo, he's the best option at that point and he absolutely should look to score first. Hes not without his faults especially when he tries to force the issue but I feel like he's doing what he's told to do and I feel like he finds those guys if they're open.

[LBPTarHeel27]

explain to me what is the definition of "trying to be the guy"? and why they couldnt have had supporting roles?

just seems every year, the Magic fan base wants to rip into its own players. AG is the only one that seems to have escaped this mostly. And he has the least amount of talent imo.

Someone you can run a consistent offensive system through...simple as that. We tried running it through Tobias, failed. We tried running it through Dipo, failed. We are giving Evan the opportunity and he is failing. You could say the same for Vuc.

I don't see that as ripping in to our own players...I see it as using my eyes. In 5 years, we haven't had anything better than players who should really be 3rd or 4th options on an average team. It'd be a different situation if we had traded Harris or Dipo and then they went on to blow up and lead a team to some level of success. Harris is showing that he is exactly what I said...a 3rd option on an average team. Dipo is being forced to be the 2nd option on an average team and isn't even doing a great job at that.

They can't have supporting roles because of the lack of a true "go to guy". Every player on our roster is being forced to fill roles and perform duties that take them away from what they do best. This results in an incredibly inconsistent offense. If we had someone capable of running an offense around...then sure, guys like Evan would fit amazingly well. Unfortunately, we don't have that...so you make moves to try and find a way to get "that guy". Again...unfortunately, we've been very unsuccessful at doing that.

but why rip and trade away players, that just need the alpha dog? you need players like them at some point. Dipo and Harris are better players than AG and Elf by a wide margin, just as an example

At some point you do need guys like Fournier...but we have a ton of them. That is all we have.

You kind of help my argument. Yes, Dipo and Harris are better players than AG and Elf by a wide margin. At our peak with one or both of those guys, we were a 35 win team. Do we really need them to replicate that kind of success? Why not trade them and try to actually improve or get other assets, at the very least (which is what happened). I believe we traded Dipo at what will eventually be viewed as his absolute peak in value. Isn't that a good thing...when you consider that we are basically just as far away from being a decent team as we were with him here?

[The Real Dalic]

Also seems reasonable to want to pass to Nik since he's the only other scorer on the team. Once again who else outside of Ibaka is he supposed to pass to? Evan gets so much underserved blame its hilarious.

I agree with the part about their not being many options to pass to, but I don't think that that should be up to Evan on who gets the ball or not. If he has a chance to give AG or Elf an open chance at a 3, Evan has to make that pass and trust his teammates to either take and make the shot, or make the right play, whether that be a pass or drive.

Well using that logic shouldn't his teammates trust him to make the right play? So if you have a situation where you've got Jodie Meeks and Payton open on the perimeter with 3 seconds left who should Evan pass to? Wouldn't the right play be to pass the ball out to Meeks on the perimeter if he's open? Would that be fair to Payton in that scenario? If the scenario described happened, and he end up passing to Payton instead of Meeks people would STILL get on Evan for passing to wrong guy. I feel like its a lose lose for him.

He shouldn't be expected to pass to Payton out of sympathy if there are better options available. Obviously if Payton or AG are his choices then he should hit them but only secondary to trying to get his own shot because imo, he's the best option at that point and he absolutely should look to score first. Hes not without his faults especially when he tries to force the issue but I feel like he's doing what he's told to do and I feel like he finds those guys if they're open.

With 3 seconds left I wouldn't even be opposed to seeing Evan take it to the hole himself. But I do obviously agree that in that exact scenario that Meeks is the one you go to. I like Evan and I'm not saying he doesn't pass it, I'm just saying he can't choose to not pass it to AG or Elf if they're open just because they're not the best shooters.

[tiderulz]

Someone you can run a consistent offensive system through...simple as that. We tried running it through Tobias, failed. We tried running it through Dipo, failed. We are giving Evan the opportunity and he is failing. You could say the same for Vuc.

I don't see that as ripping in to our own players...I see it as using my eyes. In 5 years, we haven't had anything better than players who should really be 3rd or 4th options on an average team. It'd be a different situation if we had traded Harris or Dipo and then they went on to blow up and lead a team to some level of success. Harris is showing that he is exactly what I said...a 3rd option on an average team. Dipo is being forced to be the 2nd option on an average team and isn't even doing a great job at that.

They can't have supporting roles because of the lack of a true "go to guy". Every player on our roster is being forced to fill roles and perform duties that take them away from what they do best. This results in an incredibly inconsistent offense. If we had someone capable of running an offense around...then sure, guys like Evan would fit amazingly well. Unfortunately, we don't have that...so you make moves to try and find a way to get "that guy". Again...unfortunately, we've been very unsuccessful at doing that.

but why rip and trade away players, that just need the alpha dog? you need players like them at some point. Dipo and Harris are better players than AG and Elf by a wide margin, just as an example

At some point you do need guys like Fournier...but we have a ton of them. That is all we have.

You kind of help my argument. Yes, Dipo and Harris are better players than AG and Elf by a wide margin. At our peak with one or both of those guys, we were a 35 win team. Do we really need them to replicate that kind of success? Why not trade them and try to actually improve or get other assets, at the very least (which is what happened). I believe we traded Dipo at what will eventually be viewed as his absolute peak in value. Isn't that a good thing...when you consider that we are basically just as far away from being a decent team as we were with him here?

yes, we were a 35 win team. We were also a young team. Look at the young years of OKC, with Harden, Durant, Ibaka, Westbrook. they lost a lot of games too. Look at the Twolves. Wiggins, KAT, Lavine, Rubio, Dieng. very young team, lots of losses. sometimes you need to give players more than 2 years to mature, get better, figure it out. Especially when Vaughn is the coach for 2 of those years.

[LBPTarHeel27]

but why rip and trade away players, that just need the alpha dog? you need players like them at some point. Dipo and Harris are better players than AG and Elf by a wide margin, just as an example

At some point you do need guys like Fournier...but we have a ton of them. That is all we have.

You kind of help my argument. Yes, Dipo and Harris are better players than AG and Elf by a wide margin. At our peak with one or both of those guys, we were a 35 win team. Do we really need them to replicate that kind of success? Why not trade them and try to actually improve or get other assets, at the very least (which is what happened). I believe we traded Dipo at what will eventually be viewed as his absolute peak in value. Isn't that a good thing...when you consider that we are basically just as far away from being a decent team as we were with him here?

yes, we were a 35 win team. We were also a young team. Look at the young years of OKC, with Harden, Durant, Ibaka, Westbrook. they lost a lot of games too. Look at the Twolves. Wiggins, KAT, Lavine, Rubio, Dieng. very young team, lots of losses. sometimes you need to give players more than 2 years to mature, get better, figure it out. Especially when Vaughn is the coach for 2 of those years.

Coming back to the eye test. Can you honestly look at any roster we have compiled over the last 5 years and see them in the same universe as either the young Thunder or Wolves? Once the Wolves landed KAT, everyone understood that they had "their guy". It didn't take two years of watching him develop. We knew it before he stepped on to the floor. Wiggins is clearly a great #2 option for them. All of that applies to OKC, as well. You knew they had the pieces in place...and that is why you held on to them and let them develop. Even then, OKC did have to deal with the same situation we are. You have a ton of young players and you can't keep them all. They clearly thought that Durant + Westbrook + Ibaka was a better foundation to build around than Harden....so they shipped harden out.

[p0peye]

If trading Harris and Dipo was done because they peaked and we wanted to actually avoid threading water, I fully support that.

If that is the case, why they sold us on playoffs, when we were suppose to build for the future? Why sign Biyombo at that contract?

Was that just setting the stage and expectations for others to fail?

Nope, I don't buy that. We couldv'e had similar results keeping Dipo and Sabonis without signing Biyombo.

I belive Henny truly swinged for the fences and missed. Now he realised that was wishful thinking and team is far from good.

[LBPTarHeel27]

If trading Harris and Dipo was done because they peaked and we wanted to actually avoid threading water, I fully support that.

If that is the case, why they sold us on playoffs, when we were suppose to build for the future? Why sign Biyombo at that contract?

Was that just setting the stage and expectations for others to fail?

Nope, I don't buy that. We couldv'e had similar results keeping Dipo and Sabonis without signing Biyombo.

I belive Henny truly swinged for the fences and missed. Now he realised that was wishful thinking and team is far from good.

I actually think I have the real answer on that one.

They did expect playoffs based on the additions we made. Going in to the offseason, we knew we needed "our guy" because we have no idea who our best player is. We searched and there was no one to be found. That player was not available for one reason or another.

Instead of treading water and going in to this season with essentially the same team as last year, we went the other direction. If we can't build a good offense, let's go for the elite defense. Henny used a stat along the lines of "Top 10 defenses make the playoffs 90% of the time". So he set out to build an elite defense. On paper, Vogel with Elf + AG + Ibaka + Biz is definitely something you can look at and say...yeah, I can see how that could work as a top defense. Unfortunately, that has not come to fruition.

[p0peye]

If trading Harris and Dipo was done because they peaked and we wanted to actually avoid threading water, I fully support that.

If that is the case, why they sold us on playoffs, when we were suppose to build for the future? Why sign Biyombo at that contract?

Was that just setting the stage and expectations for others to fail?

Nope, I don't buy that. We couldv'e had similar results keeping Dipo and Sabonis without signing Biyombo.

I belive Henny truly swinged for the fences and missed. Now he realised that was wishful thinking and team is far from good.

I actually think I have the real answer on that one.

They did expect playoffs based on the additions we made. Going in to the offseason, we knew we needed "our guy" because we have no idea who our best player is. We searched and there was no one to be found. That player was not available for one reason or another.

Instead of treading water and going in to this season with essentially the same team as last year, we went the other direction. If we can't build a good offense, let's go for the elite defense. Henny used a stat along the lines of "Top 10 defenses make the playoffs 90% of the time". So he set out to build an elite defense. On paper, Vogel with Elf + AG + Ibaka + Biz is definitely something you can look at and say...yeah, I can see how that could work as a top defense. Unfortunately, that has not come to fruition.

That could very well be the case, I agree.

[yoyojw17]

If trading Harris and Dipo was done because they peaked and we wanted to actually avoid threading water, I fully support that.

If that is the case, why they sold us on playoffs, when we were suppose to build for the future? Why sign Biyombo at that contract?

Was that just setting the stage and expectations for others to fail?

Nope, I don't buy that. We couldv'e had similar results keeping Dipo and Sabonis without signing Biyombo.

I belive Henny truly swinged for the fences and missed. Now he realised that was wishful thinking and team is far from good.

I actually think I have the real answer on that one.

They did expect playoffs based on the additions we made. Going in to the offseason, we knew we needed "our guy" because we have no idea who our best player is. We searched and there was no one to be found. That player was not available for one reason or another.

Instead of treading water and going in to this season with essentially the same team as last year, we went the other direction. If we can't build a good offense, let's go for the elite defense. Henny used a stat along the lines of "Top 10 defenses make the playoffs 90% of the time". So he set out to build an elite defense. On paper, Vogel with Elf + AG + Ibaka + Biz is definitely something you can look at and say...yeah, I can see how that could work as a top defense. Unfortunately, that has not come to fruition.

Exactly my outlook on the situation. It simply did not pan out. If we had a top defense (which could be highly anticipated with the the addition of "elite defender" to our current crop) and just one or two of our youngins blossomed a lil more based off of their trajectories.... we would not be anywhere close to having any of the conversations we are currently having on this board. And with cap space to add a player that will fill in the gaps the summer....we would be on the up and up. Sadly.... that's not how the cookie crumbled. That's the reason why i wonder why everyone is so hateful about the season. Trust me it sucks! but not everything goes as planned. If that was the case.... Malone and Payton would have retired with rings with the lakers.

[MagicStarwipe]

Dipo and Harris are better than Payton by a "wide margin"? How? Not even the numbers support this argument. People are so hung up on our PG not being a jump shooter that they can't see anything else.

[pepe1991]

Dipo and Harris are better than Payton by a "wide margin"? How? Not even the numbers support this argument. People are so hung up on our PG not being a jump shooter that they can't see anything else.

What else? He is only averaging 6 APG... His defense is still question mark ,he goes under screens for no reason .

And on some production level and efficiency: Payton 12 ppg on 50% TS. Harris 16 ppg on 57% TS, Oladipo 15 ppg on 53% TS. It's not rocket sience , just TS%.

Few good games by Payton this year don't make him a star. Let's not forget that last year Oladipo had 45 points game vs Cavs, followed it up by 21 points game vs Raptors and 25 points game vs Celtics.

This team could use somebody like Harris now more than ever, he would make Ibaka expendable because him and Gordon could fill SF-PF role. But oh well...

[MagicStarwipe]

Per 36 + Advanced metrics:

Payton - 15.3 PPG, 7.2 APG, 4.8 RPG, VORP 0.9, PER 15.8
Harris - 18.3 PPG, 1.9 APG, 5.8 RPG, VORP 1.0, PER 16.3
Oladipo - 17 PPG, 2.7 APG, 4.7 RPG, VORP 0.3, PER 13.8

So how are the better than him by a wide margin (if they're better at all)?