The Trade Thread II

[nymets1]

The Magic are reportedly shopping Nikola Vucevic, Jeff Green and Serge Ibaka.
According to sources of Steve Kyler of Basketball Insiders, the Magic may be valuing these pieces a little bit too high, which is why a deal has yet to go down for the Orlando franchise. They are, however, trying to land a major piece and have been linked to guys like Goran Dragic and Jimmy Butler. It doesn't seem likely that they'll be able to get either of those guys with what they have to offer, but trading away Vuc and Ibaka in order to give more minutes to Aaron Gordon at the four seems to be the theme here. Feb 7 - 4:51 PM
Source: Basketball Insiders

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1862/nikola-vucevic

[MagicFan101]

The Magic are reportedly shopping Nikola Vucevic, Jeff Green and Serge Ibaka.
According to sources of Steve Kyler of Basketball Insiders, the Magic may be valuing these pieces a little bit too high, which is why a deal has yet to go down for the Orlando franchise. They are, however, trying to land a major piece and have been linked to guys like Goran Dragic and Jimmy Butler. It doesn't seem likely that they'll be able to get either of those guys with what they have to offer, but trading away Vuc and Ibaka in order to give more minutes to Aaron Gordon at the four seems to be the theme here. Feb 7 - 4:51 PM
Source: Basketball Insiders

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1862/nikola-vucevic

We're all greatful for these insiders. What would we do without two month old rumors!?

[magicman112]

The Magic are reportedly shopping Nikola Vucevic, Jeff Green and Serge Ibaka.
According to sources of Steve Kyler of Basketball Insiders, the Magic may be valuing these pieces a little bit too high, which is why a deal has yet to go down for the Orlando franchise. They are, however, trying to land a major piece and have been linked to guys like Goran Dragic and Jimmy Butler. It doesn't seem likely that they'll be able to get either of those guys with what they have to offer, but trading away Vuc and Ibaka in order to give more minutes to Aaron Gordon at the four seems to be the theme here. Feb 7 - 4:51 PM
Source: Basketball Insiders

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1862/nikola-vucevic

We're all greatful for these insiders. What would we do without two month old rumors!?

A Guy Named Steve. He's managed to be around for a long time.

[teefbe]

Its 2017 and people still consider Steve Kyler as a source smh

[OrlandoDream]

Kyler? Really? I have no doubt we are trying to trade Ibaka and Green but actively shopping Vuc for Dragic? Just stop Kyler

[OrlandoDream]

Per 36 + Advanced metrics:

Payton - 15.3 PPG, 7.2 APG, 4.8 RPG, VORP 0.9, PER 15.8
Harris - 18.3 PPG, 1.9 APG, 5.8 RPG, VORP 1.0, PER 16.3
Oladipo - 17 PPG, 2.7 APG, 4.7 RPG, VORP 0.3, PER 13.8

So how are the better than him by a wide margin (if they're better at all)?

They are on a better team. The one thing we forget to state whenever we use advanced statistics is that the players you play around tend to inflate those values.

[tiderulz]

At some point you do need guys like Fournier...but we have a ton of them. That is all we have.

You kind of help my argument. Yes, Dipo and Harris are better players than AG and Elf by a wide margin. At our peak with one or both of those guys, we were a 35 win team. Do we really need them to replicate that kind of success? Why not trade them and try to actually improve or get other assets, at the very least (which is what happened). I believe we traded Dipo at what will eventually be viewed as his absolute peak in value. Isn't that a good thing...when you consider that we are basically just as far away from being a decent team as we were with him here?

yes, we were a 35 win team. We were also a young team. Look at the young years of OKC, with Harden, Durant, Ibaka, Westbrook. they lost a lot of games too. Look at the Twolves. Wiggins, KAT, Lavine, Rubio, Dieng. very young team, lots of losses. sometimes you need to give players more than 2 years to mature, get better, figure it out. Especially when Vaughn is the coach for 2 of those years.

Coming back to the eye test. Can you honestly look at any roster we have compiled over the last 5 years and see them in the same universe as either the young Thunder or Wolves? Once the Wolves landed KAT, everyone understood that they had "their guy". It didn't take two years of watching him develop. We knew it before he stepped on to the floor. Wiggins is clearly a great #2 option for them. All of that applies to OKC, as well. You knew they had the pieces in place...and that is why you held on to them and let them develop. Even then, OKC did have to deal with the same situation we are. You have a ton of young players and you can't keep them all. They clearly thought that Durant + Westbrook + Ibaka was a better foundation to build around than Harden....so they shipped harden out.

If Minny has all this talent, why are they losing more than we are?

just seems this is the Orlando way. Like a player for a year, like them more then 2nd year, then tear them down and want them traded the 3rd year.

[tiderulz]

Per 36 + Advanced metrics:

Payton - 15.3 PPG, 7.2 APG, 4.8 RPG, VORP 0.9, PER 15.8
Harris - 18.3 PPG, 1.9 APG, 5.8 RPG, VORP 1.0, PER 16.3
Oladipo - 17 PPG, 2.7 APG, 4.7 RPG, VORP 0.3, PER 13.8

So how are the better than him by a wide margin (if they're better at all)?

they are both quality starters. Elf has yet to consistently become that.
i dont say they will always be better, but both Harris and Dipo impact a game better than AG and Elf

[tiderulz]

The Magic are reportedly shopping Nikola Vucevic, Jeff Green and Serge Ibaka.
According to sources of Steve Kyler of Basketball Insiders, the Magic may be valuing these pieces a little bit too high, which is why a deal has yet to go down for the Orlando franchise. They are, however, trying to land a major piece and have been linked to guys like Goran Dragic and Jimmy Butler. It doesn't seem likely that they'll be able to get either of those guys with what they have to offer, but trading away Vuc and Ibaka in order to give more minutes to Aaron Gordon at the four seems to be the theme here. Feb 7 - 4:51 PM
Source: Basketball Insiders

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1862/nikola-vucevic

trading away Vuc, a center, does zero for giving more time for AG at the 4

[anothermagicfan]

Dipo and Harris are better than Payton by a "wide margin"? How? Not even the numbers support this argument. People are so hung up on our PG not being a jump shooter that they can't see anything else.

What else? He is only averaging 6 APG... His defense is still question mark ,he goes under screens for no reason .

And on some production level and efficiency: Payton 12 ppg on 50% TS. Harris 16 ppg on 57% TS, Oladipo 15 ppg on 53% TS. It's not rocket sience , just TS%.

Few good games by Payton this year don't make him a star. Let's not forget that last year Oladipo had 45 points game vs Cavs, followed it up by 21 points game vs Raptors and 25 points game vs Celtics.

This team could use somebody like Harris now more than ever, he would make Ibaka expendable because him and Gordon could fill SF-PF role. But oh well...

Its surprising to me that Payton only has 6 apg because he is surrounded by some of the best shooters in the league. This is the best scoring team in the nba right?
I'm a big fan of oladipo. He's playing along side of westbrook. That should make it easier for him. He's pretty much mirrored last year's production.
I liked tobias but didn't feel like he was a cornerstone for us. He's got that Drummond guy and Reggie Jackson and svg. If he's so good why aren't they fighting with Boston and Toronto for the best team behind Cleveland in the east?

[anothermagicfan]

Per 36 + Advanced metrics:

Payton - 15.3 PPG, 7.2 APG, 4.8 RPG, VORP 0.9, PER 15.8
Harris - 18.3 PPG, 1.9 APG, 5.8 RPG, VORP 1.0, PER 16.3
Oladipo - 17 PPG, 2.7 APG, 4.7 RPG, VORP 0.3, PER 13.8

So how are the better than him by a wide margin (if they're better at all)?

they are both quality starters. Elf has yet to consistently become that.
i dont say they will always be better, but both Harris and Dipo impact a game better than AG and Elf

Most of the time the girl in the green and white is the only reason to stop for your comments. This is definitely one of those occasions

[anothermagicfan]

The Magic are reportedly shopping Nikola Vucevic, Jeff Green and Serge Ibaka.
According to sources of Steve Kyler of Basketball Insiders, the Magic may be valuing these pieces a little bit too high, which is why a deal has yet to go down for the Orlando franchise. They are, however, trying to land a major piece and have been linked to guys like Goran Dragic and Jimmy Butler. It doesn't seem likely that they'll be able to get either of those guys with what they have to offer, but trading away Vuc and Ibaka in order to give more minutes to Aaron Gordon at the four seems to be the theme here. Feb 7 - 4:51 PM
Source: Basketball Insiders

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1862/nikola-vucevic

trading away Vuc, a center, does zero for giving more time for AG at the 4

Trading away Jeff green and serge ibaka who tend to play close to 48 minutes a night combined at the 4 would certainly do a lot more than zero. As for trading vuc that would eliminate the rare occasions when biyombo and vuc play together. It seems to me like trading any or all of those 3 would create minutes at the 4 for gordon.

[tiderulz]

Per 36 + Advanced metrics:

Payton - 15.3 PPG, 7.2 APG, 4.8 RPG, VORP 0.9, PER 15.8
Harris - 18.3 PPG, 1.9 APG, 5.8 RPG, VORP 1.0, PER 16.3
Oladipo - 17 PPG, 2.7 APG, 4.7 RPG, VORP 0.3, PER 13.8

So how are the better than him by a wide margin (if they're better at all)?

they are both quality starters. Elf has yet to consistently become that.
i dont say they will always be better, but both Harris and Dipo impact a game better than AG and Elf

Most of the time the girl in the green and white is the only reason to stop for your comments. This is definitely one of those occasions

way to really add to the conversation.

[Skin]

The Magic are reportedly shopping Nikola Vucevic, Jeff Green and Serge Ibaka.
According to sources of Steve Kyler of Basketball Insiders, the Magic may be valuing these pieces a little bit too high, which is why a deal has yet to go down for the Orlando franchise. They are, however, trying to land a major piece and have been linked to guys like Goran Dragic and Jimmy Butler. It doesn't seem likely that they'll be able to get either of those guys with what they have to offer, but trading away Vuc and Ibaka in order to give more minutes to Aaron Gordon at the four seems to be the theme here. Feb 7 - 4:51 PM
Source: Basketball Insiders

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1862/nikola-vucevic

trading away Vuc, a center, does zero for giving more time for AG at the 4

How about if it moved Ibaka to the 5 and then opened up min for Gordon at the 4?

[LBPTarHeel27]

yes, we were a 35 win team. We were also a young team. Look at the young years of OKC, with Harden, Durant, Ibaka, Westbrook. they lost a lot of games too. Look at the Twolves. Wiggins, KAT, Lavine, Rubio, Dieng. very young team, lots of losses. sometimes you need to give players more than 2 years to mature, get better, figure it out. Especially when Vaughn is the coach for 2 of those years.

Coming back to the eye test. Can you honestly look at any roster we have compiled over the last 5 years and see them in the same universe as either the young Thunder or Wolves? Once the Wolves landed KAT, everyone understood that they had "their guy". It didn't take two years of watching him develop. We knew it before he stepped on to the floor. Wiggins is clearly a great #2 option for them. All of that applies to OKC, as well. You knew they had the pieces in place...and that is why you held on to them and let them develop. Even then, OKC did have to deal with the same situation we are. You have a ton of young players and you can't keep them all. They clearly thought that Durant + Westbrook + Ibaka was a better foundation to build around than Harden....so they shipped harden out.

If Minny has all this talent, why are they losing more than we are?

just seems this is the Orlando way. Like a player for a year, like them more then 2nd year, then tear them down and want them traded the 3rd year.

Are you trying to say that we actually are in a comparable spot to Minny?

I'd get your argument about this "Orlando way" if anyone we had traded had actually turned out to be a stud. None of them have been any better after leaving here.

[VFX]

Coming back to the eye test. Can you honestly look at any roster we have compiled over the last 5 years and see them in the same universe as either the young Thunder or Wolves? Once the Wolves landed KAT, everyone understood that they had "their guy". It didn't take two years of watching him develop. We knew it before he stepped on to the floor. Wiggins is clearly a great #2 option for them. All of that applies to OKC, as well. You knew they had the pieces in place...and that is why you held on to them and let them develop. Even then, OKC did have to deal with the same situation we are. You have a ton of young players and you can't keep them all. They clearly thought that Durant + Westbrook + Ibaka was a better foundation to build around than Harden....so they shipped harden out.

If Minny has all this talent, why are they losing more than we are?

just seems this is the Orlando way. Like a player for a year, like them more then 2nd year, then tear them down and want them traded the 3rd year.

Are you trying to say that we actually are in a comparable spot to Minny?

I'd get your argument about this "Orlando way" if anyone we had traded had actually turned out to be a stud. None of them have been any better after leaving here.

It's not like AG and EP are buried on the bench. They play significant minutes, against even terrible teams, and still aren't 'wow-ing' anyone. We don't have the luxury of having these young players earn their minutes behind better, more established players.

The difference between us and Minnesota is that their players actually meet or exceed fan's expectations on the court. Is it right to feel that way? Maybe not, but it's true.

[Xatticus]

Coming back to the eye test. Can you honestly look at any roster we have compiled over the last 5 years and see them in the same universe as either the young Thunder or Wolves? Once the Wolves landed KAT, everyone understood that they had "their guy". It didn't take two years of watching him develop. We knew it before he stepped on to the floor. Wiggins is clearly a great #2 option for them. All of that applies to OKC, as well. You knew they had the pieces in place...and that is why you held on to them and let them develop. Even then, OKC did have to deal with the same situation we are. You have a ton of young players and you can't keep them all. They clearly thought that Durant + Westbrook + Ibaka was a better foundation to build around than Harden....so they shipped harden out.

If Minny has all this talent, why are they losing more than we are?

just seems this is the Orlando way. Like a player for a year, like them more then 2nd year, then tear them down and want them traded the 3rd year.

Are you trying to say that we actually are in a comparable spot to Minny?

I'd get your argument about this "Orlando way" if anyone we had traded had actually turned out to be a stud. None of them have been any better after leaving here.

I tend to think the Minnesota core is really overrated, though It's certainly better than ours. Once you get past all the hype and volume, Wiggins hasn't done anything special. He is still struggling defensively, which is troubling considering that what made him the top pick was his athleticism and defensive upside. Right now, he is just another Rudy Gay that hasn't yet been outed as such. If I were running Minnesota, I'd come up with some weak excuse to make him available with the hopes that it could net me a haul from some desperate franchise (like Orlando).

Coming back to the conversation about our own players, the problem is that we keep overpaying them for stats they are pillaging here. I really don't care what the market was for Fournier, he was dramatically overpaid. If you look at the assets that Ainge has accumulated, the common trait among all of them was their high productivity relative to their contracts.

There is an economic theory that holds that the more information you have, the better equipped you are to make a decision. Hennigan has repeatedly let assets walk into restricted free agency before making a decision on them. This is a problem. This is why we overpaid Harris and Fournier. You have to make your decisions on players before you lose leverage. Once a player reaches restricted free agency armed with the pillaged stats you let them accrue, you only have the options of overpaying them or letting them walk. You can extend players a year before they actually reach restricted free agency. If the two sides are far apart, you ship that asset out while you still have some leverage.

Harris and Fournier on their rookie-scale contracts are useful pieces. Once they are earning 17 mil per season, they are a problem. The forum simply reflects this.

[AddiFB]

Only up to 15 days until forum meltdown. I'm so excited.

[ballislife]

Raptor fan coming in peace... I just want to know what you guys are thinking about Serge Ibaka? Is he looked at as a part of the future? Or are you guys actually looking to deal him for future spots?

Personally, as a Raptors fan, he's exactly what we need and Masai Ujiri has shown significant interest in him in the past. Ibaka is definitely a good core piece on a lot of teams, but I don't see any fit in the NBA better than with the Raptors.

If the Raps gave Joseph + Ross, would you guys do it? We MIGHT be willing to give one of our 2 first round picks (TOR/LAC).

[Xatticus]

Raptor fan coming in peace... I just want to know what you guys are thinking about Serge Ibaka? Is he looked at as a part of the future? Or are you guys actually looking to deal him for future spots?

Personally, as a Raptors fan, he's exactly what we need and Masai Ujiri has shown significant interest in him in the past. Ibaka is definitely a good core piece on a lot of teams, but I don't see any fit in the NBA better than with the Raptors.

If the Raps gave Joseph + Ross, would you guys do it? We MIGHT be willing to give one of our 2 first round picks (TOR/LAC).

A lot of Raptors fans stop by to express their interest in Ibaka. Everyone pitches an offer similar to this. Ross isn't terrible value for his contract, but I'd rather have the cap space this summer. Joseph isn't worth his contract and I'd want something in return just to take it from you.

I'd imagine some around here would take that offer over nothing, but I wouldn't. I'd let Ibaka walk before I'd accept that offer.