2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[bondom34]

Westbrook has no chance of winning MVP. None at all. He wasn't even voted as a starter in the ASG this year. His team is just not good enough for him to win. The MVP is going to come down to Leonard and Harden. The MVP typically goes to a team with a top two seed. What helps Harden's case is that his raw stats look really impressive and Houston will likely finish around 54-56 wins which is better than what they finished last season at 41 wins.

And this I don't disagree with, except the All Star part. That's entirely different and fans are the reason he didn't start. Curry's still the pretty smiling face of the NBA.

[RCM88x]

Not advocating for any Warriors for MVP because I don't think one will win it. I have Harden as 1a and Westbrook at 1b at this moment in time, with team success nudging Harden above Westbrook. But that's interpreting MVP as "Best Statistical Season" and not "Best Player Award".

However, for all of the valid Westbrook and Harden arguments, I'm going to call out a few that aren't:

Harden was responsible for more Wins in RPM, 20.63/56 to 20.07/67.

Congratulations, you win the "Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics Award for Intellectual Dishonesty" for this gem. You somehow twisted RPM, which favored Steph that year, into an argument for Harden. RPM Wins is RPM adjusted for possessions -- so, while Steph had a higher RPM that year, Harden played one more game (and played more minutes) so he barely edged Curry in "RPM Wins".

So, RPM, WS/48, BPM and VORP prefer Curry, while WS (again, minutes/games played) and some on/off stat that shows GS had a better bench than Houston is your argument? Oh, yeah, and RPM "Wins". Let's not even talk defense. Yet you're trying to snatch Curry's 2015 MVP out of his hands -- just brutal. Stick to 2017.

I didn't realize that stating RPM Wins is twisting stats, but thanks.

I also didn't realize that discussing past MVPs is so off limits, but thanks again.

I just believe that Harden was more valuable to Houston that season than Curry was GS, considering how much better the GS team was around Curry than Harden, especially considering the injuries. He edged Curry out in total WS, 16.4 to 15.7, despite only playing one more game, not that I like WS at all, as they are completely dependent on W/L, which isn't the result of a single player.

But yes, lets stick to '17. The point of "removing narrative" from the MVP discussion is completely pointless because that's what 95% of it is, I was just providing an MVP award which was debatable in the eyes of some people, and was in some cases determined by the narrative.

[PeptoKlepto]

Not advocating for any Warriors for MVP because I don't think one will win it. I have Harden as 1a and Westbrook at 1b at this moment in time, with team success nudging Harden above Westbrook. But that's interpreting MVP as "Best Statistical Season" and not "Best Player Award".

However, for all of the valid Westbrook and Harden arguments, I'm going to call out a few that aren't:

Harden was responsible for more Wins in RPM, 20.63/56 to 20.07/67.

Congratulations, you win the "Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics Award for Intellectual Dishonesty" for this gem. You somehow twisted RPM, which favored Steph that year, into an argument for Harden. RPM Wins is RPM adjusted for possessions -- so, while Steph had a higher RPM that year, Harden played one more game (and played more minutes) so he barely edged Curry in "RPM Wins".

So, RPM, WS/48, BPM and VORP prefer Curry, while WS (again, minutes/games played) and some on/off stat that shows GS had a better bench than Houston is your argument? Oh, yeah, and RPM "Wins". Let's not even talk defense. Yet you're trying to snatch Curry's 2015 MVP out of his hands -- just brutal. Stick to 2017.

I didn't realize that stating RPM Wins is twisting stats, but thanks.

I also didn't realize that discussing past MVPs is so off limits, but thanks again.

I just believe that Harden was more valuable to Houston that season than Curry was GS, considering how much better the GS team was around Curry than Harden, especially considering the injuries. He edged Curry out in total WS, 16.4 to 15.7, despite only playing one more game, not that I like WS at all, as they are completely dependent on W/L, which isn't the result of a single player.

But yes, lets stick to '17. The point of "removing narrative" from the MVP discussion is completely pointless because that's what 95% of it is, I was just providing an MVP award which was debatable in the eyes of some people, and was in some cases determined by the narrative.

...and you still haven't explained that. What was the narrative that helped Curry win the MVP over Harden?

And that MVP was hardly debatable. Curry had a huge edge in both team success as well as impact stats.

[RCM88x]

Not advocating for any Warriors for MVP because I don't think one will win it. I have Harden as 1a and Westbrook at 1b at this moment in time, with team success nudging Harden above Westbrook. But that's interpreting MVP as "Best Statistical Season" and not "Best Player Award".

However, for all of the valid Westbrook and Harden arguments, I'm going to call out a few that aren't:


Congratulations, you win the "Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics Award for Intellectual Dishonesty" for this gem. You somehow twisted RPM, which favored Steph that year, into an argument for Harden. RPM Wins is RPM adjusted for possessions -- so, while Steph had a higher RPM that year, Harden played one more game (and played more minutes) so he barely edged Curry in "RPM Wins".

So, RPM, WS/48, BPM and VORP prefer Curry, while WS (again, minutes/games played) and some on/off stat that shows GS had a better bench than Houston is your argument? Oh, yeah, and RPM "Wins". Let's not even talk defense. Yet you're trying to snatch Curry's 2015 MVP out of his hands -- just brutal. Stick to 2017.

I didn't realize that stating RPM Wins is twisting stats, but thanks.

I also didn't realize that discussing past MVPs is so off limits, but thanks again.

I just believe that Harden was more valuable to Houston that season than Curry was GS, considering how much better the GS team was around Curry than Harden, especially considering the injuries. He edged Curry out in total WS, 16.4 to 15.7, despite only playing one more game, not that I like WS at all, as they are completely dependent on W/L, which isn't the result of a single player.

But yes, lets stick to '17. The point of "removing narrative" from the MVP discussion is completely pointless because that's what 95% of it is, I was just providing an MVP award which was debatable in the eyes of some people, and was in some cases determined by the narrative.

...and you still haven't explained that. What was the narrative that helped Curry win the MVP over Harden?

And that MVP was hardly debatable. Curry had a huge edge in both team success as well as impact stats.

Everyone was so in love with the 3pt shooting, style of play, showboating, etc.... If they play and ugly style of basketball and everything else remains the same, I'm not sure if he wins.

There was a huge number of people who didn't believe Harden deserved the award because of his and the Rockets style of play.

And if it's "hardly debatable" then why did 30/130 people not vote him.

Kevin Durant and Derrick Rose both received a larger margin of first place votes than Curry did in '15, and a good number of people believe those are certainly debatable.

[PeptoKlepto]

I didn't realize that stating RPM Wins is twisting stats, but thanks.

I also didn't realize that discussing past MVPs is so off limits, but thanks again.

I just believe that Harden was more valuable to Houston that season than Curry was GS, considering how much better the GS team was around Curry than Harden, especially considering the injuries. He edged Curry out in total WS, 16.4 to 15.7, despite only playing one more game, not that I like WS at all, as they are completely dependent on W/L, which isn't the result of a single player.

But yes, lets stick to '17. The point of "removing narrative" from the MVP discussion is completely pointless because that's what 95% of it is, I was just providing an MVP award which was debatable in the eyes of some people, and was in some cases determined by the narrative.

...and you still haven't explained that. What was the narrative that helped Curry win the MVP over Harden?

And that MVP was hardly debatable. Curry had a huge edge in both team success as well as impact stats.

Everyone was so in love with the 3pt shooting, style of play, showboating, etc.... If they play and ugly style of basketball and everything else remains the same, I'm not sure if he wins.

There was a huge number of people who didn't believe Harden deserved the award because of his and the Rockets style of play.

And if it's "hardly debatable" then why did 30/130 people not vote him.

Kevin Durant and Derrick Rose both received a larger margin of first place votes than Curry did in '15, and a good number of people believe those are certainly debatable.

30/130 isn't a close vote at all, and the notion that that many people voted for Steph because of a "showboating narrative" is laughable and quite disrespectful to the type of season that Steph put up in 14-15, which was better than Harden's across the board.

[DubTheVanDamage]

...

If you're honestly comparing a defense with Durant and Green with anyone else, I'm not sure where to start. Curry's defense is not in any way better than Westbrook. He can't guard man to man and isn't that good otherwise. They're similar by most any measure (sorry, I was incorrect, Curry's DRPM now slightly is ahead). But he's in now way better man to man and team goes the same so whatever you're arguing could be made for Curry as well.

He's on a stacked roster and can do cute shimmies all over the place because he has freedom on that team to do so, and yet he's not having the offensive impact of Westbrook. He's great at chomping a mouth piece though!

As for "impact" generally that term is used for Plus/minus data (RAPM/RPM). In which case Russ has had the most impact. BPM, same.

1) You're very touchy -- I was just showing lineups to demonstrate that you statement that every lineup Westbrook was part of was good defensively was false. But rather than cop to that, you focus on something else. I see how you are.

2) I showed defensive stats that demonstrated that Curry is a better defender than Westbrook and asked you to support your claim otherwise. Again, rather than engaging in a reasonable dialogue, you dig in your heels with unsubstantiated opinions.

3) Sure, Curry's DRPM is only marginally better than Westbrook's -- but you said Westbrook was "clearly" superior to Curry statistically but, rather than support what you said or at least give a mea culpa, you furiously double down with unsupported claims.

4) Can you please create a glossary for advanced stats, because I didn't know that "impact" specifically meant RPM. I would have thought "Win Shares" was a measure of a player's impact as well, but I guess we just pretend that stat doesn't exist because we don't like what it says.

You're free to believe that Westbrook is a better player than Curry. You're free to believe that Westbrook is flawless on the basketball court. I don't particularly care, but if you're going to ignore polite, substantiated points to both the positive AND negatives of players and resort to baseless claims then it's pretty pointless trying to have a discussion with you. Heck, I gave a better argument for Westbrook for MVP than anything I've seen from you. I'm sorry I tried.

[DubTheVanDamage]

I didn't realize that stating RPM Wins is twisting stats, but thanks.

I'm sorry you misunderstood, the issue wasn't stating RPM Wins, but rather doing so out of context (i.e. Curry had a higher RPM but missed one game and a number of 4th quarters). Even worse is being obtuse.

I also didn't realize that discussing past MVPs is so off limits, but thanks again.

See the thread title? The "2016-17" refers to this season. Go dig up an old thread if you want to revisit previous years. I'm glad I was here to help -- but are you feeling alright?

[bondom34]

1) You're very touchy -- I was just showing lineups to demonstrate that you statement that every lineup Westbrook was part of was good defensively was false. But rather than cop to that, you focus on something else. I see how you are.

2) I showed defensive stats that demonstrated that Curry is a better defender than Westbrook and asked you to support your claim otherwise. Again, rather than engaging in a reasonable dialogue, you dig in your heels with unsubstantiated opinions.

3) Sure, Curry's DRPM is only marginally better than Westbrook's -- but you said Westbrook was "clearly" superior to Curry statistically but, rather than support what you said or at least give a mea culpa, you furiously double down with unsupported claims.

4) Can you please create a glossary for advanced stats, because I didn't know that "impact" specifically meant RPM. I would have thought "Win Shares" was a measure of a player's impact as well, but I guess we just pretend that stat doesn't exist because we don't like what it says.

You're free to believe that Westbrook is a better player than Curry. You're free to believe that Westbrook is flawless on the basketball court. I don't particularly care, but if you're going to ignore polite, substantiated points to both the positive AND negatives of players and resort to baseless claims then it's pretty pointless trying to have a discussion with you. Heck, I gave a better argument for Westbrook for MVP than anything I've seen from you. I'm sorry I tried.

1 Actually not at all, I'm good. You showed a handful of lineups, of which he was part of 4 of. Of those, 3 were good defensively. Also, you're looking at a sample of under 100 minutes, while Curry plays next to a DPOY and other fantastic defenders, there's a reason GSW is good defensively and it's not Curry. Westbrook isn't any worse than him on defense

2/3 I stated in my last post RPM was close, it had updated and prior Curry was worse. Westbrook still leads in DBPM.

4. Win Shares are a counting statistic, with a large basis in actual team wins. They're box score based and favor more efficient players in general. RPM (Or the PM family) are generally referred to as measures of impact, since they measure the "impact" a player has on the team level. Box score metrics are not.

You're free to believe as you'd like too, but if you want to shove the "sham" argument down people's throat in whatever form you can, I'll call you on it because it's wrong. Westbrook is far from perfect, and Curry's an amazing player, but the need to tear down a guy because he rebounds better than any guard in the league is bizarre to me. There's a reason we haven't seen this done in 50 years, because it's incredibly hard to do. Nobody thought he'd actually do it, and now that he has every opposing fan (specifically for some reason fans of guys who are really good players) want to discredit it. If its not that hard, then you know what everyone should do it

I'll see myself out, don't need to reply. I'll stick to the PC board where there's actual discussion using reason.

Edit:

Let's look at the Thunder's top 5 lineups (minutes, offense, defense, +/-):
1 Westbrook-Oladipo-Roberson-Sabonis-Adams 510.8 1.05 1.03 +15
2 Westbrook-Morrow-Roberson-Sabonis-Adams 111.3 1.06 1.13 -11
3 Christon-Abrines-Grant-Lauvergne-Kanter 81.7 1.15 1.30 -30
4 Westbrook-Oladipo-Roberson-Kanter-Adams 80.0 1.13 1.01 +28
5 Westbrook-Oladipo-Roberson-Grant-Adams 74.7 1.09 1.06 -15

Oh, and don't know where your lineups were from, but NBA.com has this:
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612760/lineups-advanced/

Westbrook/Oladipo/Roberson/Sabonis/Adams D rating of 98.0 in 549 minutes
Replace Oladipo with Morrow and its 106.0 in 115 minutes
He's not in the 3rd lineup or 4th
and 5th is Adams/Kanter/Oladipo/Roberson/Westbrook with 97.5 in 80 minutes.

So to add your numbers were off. And 2 of those lineups are fantastic defensively

[DubTheVanDamage]

1 Actually not at all, I'm good. You showed a handful of lineups, of which he was part of 4 of. Of those, 3 were good defensively. Also, you're looking at a sample of under 100 minutes, while Curry plays next to a DPOY and other fantastic defenders, there's a reason GSW is good defensively and it's not Curry. Westbrook isn't any worse than him on defense

Actually, you're not good -- because you said that every lineup with Westbrook was good defensively and I showed that their second most common lineup wasn't good defensively. I don't think this is a particularly valid metric for defense, BTW, but if you're going to say it, prove it or admit you were wrong.

2/3 I stated in my last post RPM was close, it had updated and prior Curry was worse. Westbrook still leads in DBPM.

You also stated that Westbrook's was clearly better defensively than Curry; statistically speaking, he is not. Had you said they were in the same ballpark, I wouldn't have spoken up. Again, support your statement or admit your error.

4. Win Shares are a counting statistic, with a large basis in actual team wins. They're box score based and favor more efficient players in general. RPM (Or the PM family) are generally referred to as measures of impact, since they measure the "impact" a player has on the team level. Box score metrics are not.

Win Shares specifically try to isolate a player from his teammates, which is how Anthony Davis is 13th in the league in Win Shares on a bad team. Win Shares certainly aren't perfect, but 6 of the last 7 MVPs led the league in WS/48, with Rose being the exception. Also, 6 of the last 7 MVPs also led the league in VORP (again, with Rose being the exception). Westbrook leads the league in VORP, is 17th in WS/48. It's an odd year.

ESPN only has full season RPM from 2014 onward. But of the 3 MVPs, only one led the league in RPM (Curry in 2015). When Durant won in 2014, he was #4 in RPM while Iguodala was #3. Likewise, I've literally never heard anyone say that Zaza has more impact than Marc Gasol, which RPM suggests.

That's why I favor considering multiple advanced stats and not relying on a single one.

You're free to believe as you'd like too, but if you want to shove the "sham" argument down people's throat in whatever form you can, I'll call you on it because it's wrong. Westbrook is far from perfect, and Curry's an amazing player, but the need to tear down a guy because he rebounds better than any guard in the league is bizarre to me. There's a reason we haven't seen this done in 50 years, because it's incredibly hard to do. Nobody thought he'd actually do it, and now that he has every opposing fan (specifically for some reason fans of guys who are really good players) want to discredit it. If its not that hard, then you know what everyone should do it

I'll see myself out, don't need to reply. I'll stick to the PC board where there's actual discussion using reason.

It's really strange to me that you're so fixated on the rebounding thing. Saying that Westbrook's raw rebounding numbers are a 'sham' (or, to be kinder, are a product of the system) isn't a particularly radical perspective, even OKC beat writers have commented on it. His teammates talk about it. However, it doesn't denigrate Westbrook, unless you believe his primary value to the team is as a rebounder.

I wrote a post saying that Westbrook was my 1b MVP candidate, ranked above my beloved Warriors, and you're outraged. It's just bizarre to me. Maybe you think it's personal, but if I see a Warriors fan posting fake facts, I'll call them on it, too.

Edit:
Oh, and don't know where your lineups were from, but NBA.com has this:
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612760/lineups-advanced/

Westbrook/Oladipo/Roberson/Sabonis/Adams D rating of 98.0 in 549 minutes
Replace Oladipo with Morrow and its 106.0 in 115 minutes
He's not in the 3rd lineup or 4th
and 5th is Adams/Kanter/Oladipo/Roberson/Westbrook with 97.5 in 80 minutes.

So to add your numbers were off. And 2 of those lineups are fantastic defensively

Mine are from 82Games.
http://www.82games.com/1617/1617OKC2.HTM

I'm pretty sure that you're aware there are different methods for calculating ORtg and DRtg. If you did know that, then it's rude to automatically assume my numbers are off.

While it's interesting that two of the Thunder's top 4 lineups with Westbrook have great defensive ratings, that wasn't what you said. Seriously, why can't people check stats before they post?

[bondom34]

1 Actually not at all, I'm good. You showed a handful of lineups, of which he was part of 4 of. Of those, 3 were good defensively. Also, you're looking at a sample of under 100 minutes, while Curry plays next to a DPOY and other fantastic defenders, there's a reason GSW is good defensively and it's not Curry. Westbrook isn't any worse than him on defense

Actually, you're not good -- because you said that every lineup with Westbrook was good defensively and I showed that their second most common lineup wasn't good defensively. I don't think this is a particularly valid metric for defense, BTW, but if you're going to say it, prove it or admit you were wrong.

2/3 I stated in my last post RPM was close, it had updated and prior Curry was worse. Westbrook still leads in DBPM.

You also stated that Westbrook's was clearly better defensively than Curry; statistically speaking, he is not. Had you said they were in the same ballpark, I wouldn't have spoken up. Again, support your statement or admit your error.

4. Win Shares are a counting statistic, with a large basis in actual team wins. They're box score based and favor more efficient players in general. RPM (Or the PM family) are generally referred to as measures of impact, since they measure the "impact" a player has on the team level. Box score metrics are not.

Win Shares specifically try to isolate a player from his teammates, which is how Anthony Davis is 13th in the league in Win Shares on a bad team. Win Shares certainly aren't perfect, but 6 of the last 7 MVPs led the league in WS/48, with Rose being the exception. Also, 6 of the last 7 MVPs also led the league in VORP (again, with Rose being the exception). Westbrook leads the league in VORP, is 17th in WS/48. It's an odd year.

ESPN only has full season RPM from 2014 onward. But of the 3 MVPs, only one led the league in RPM (Curry in 2015). When Durant won in 2014, he was #4 in RPM while Iguodala was #3. Likewise, I've literally never heard anyone say that Zaza has more impact than Marc Gasol, which RPM suggests.

That's why I favor considering multiple advanced stats and not relying on a single one.

You're free to believe as you'd like too, but if you want to shove the "sham" argument down people's throat in whatever form you can, I'll call you on it because it's wrong. Westbrook is far from perfect, and Curry's an amazing player, but the need to tear down a guy because he rebounds better than any guard in the league is bizarre to me. There's a reason we haven't seen this done in 50 years, because it's incredibly hard to do. Nobody thought he'd actually do it, and now that he has every opposing fan (specifically for some reason fans of guys who are really good players) want to discredit it. If its not that hard, then you know what everyone should do it

I'll see myself out, don't need to reply. I'll stick to the PC board where there's actual discussion using reason.

It's really strange to me that you're so fixated on the rebounding thing. Saying that Westbrook's raw rebounding numbers are a 'sham' (or, to be kinder, are a product of the system) isn't a particularly radical perspective, even OKC beat writers have commented on it. His teammates talk about it. However, it doesn't denigrate Westbrook, unless you believe his primary value to the team is as a rebounder.

I wrote a post saying that Westbrook was my 1b MVP candidate, ranked above my beloved Warriors, and you're outraged. It's just bizarre to me. Maybe you think it's personal, but if I see a Warriors fan posting fake facts, I'll call them on it, too.

Edit:
Oh, and don't know where your lineups were from, but NBA.com has this:
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612760/lineups-advanced/

Westbrook/Oladipo/Roberson/Sabonis/Adams D rating of 98.0 in 549 minutes
Replace Oladipo with Morrow and its 106.0 in 115 minutes
He's not in the 3rd lineup or 4th
and 5th is Adams/Kanter/Oladipo/Roberson/Westbrook with 97.5 in 80 minutes.

So to add your numbers were off. And 2 of those lineups are fantastic defensively

Mine are from 82Games.
http://www.82games.com/1617/1617OKC2.HTM

I'm pretty sure that you're aware there are different methods for calculating ORtg and DRtg. If you did know that, then it's rude to automatically assume my numbers are off.

While it's interesting that two of the Thunder's top 4 lineups with Westbrook have great defensive ratings, that wasn't what you said. Seriously, why can't people check stats before they post?

1. No, I'm good
2. So you didn't read my entire post, or just took part of it to argue
4. And I never said I only use one metric, but WS aren't an impact metric, they're box score. Useful, as is BPM, TS, assists, TOs, rebounds, etc. But no more than any other, and they have major biases toward certain types of players, as does PER. This is why generally PM stats are a little more informative to me.

5 Yes I am, but your minutes were also wrong, as were some of the lineups, not being rude there but I'd expect at least that info to be consistent between sources.


As far as rebounds go, yep its schemed. That doesn't make them fake, or a sham, or irrelevant as he's still doing things most players couldn't and working his tail off for them. If a guy gets 17 in a game, sorry that's not stat padding there's a ton of hustling going on, and if you watch him play you'd realize he's working harder than anyone out there and cares more about winning than anything. He's pissed after a triple double in a loss, and people act like it's all he cares about, heck even your sig implies it a bit. He doesn't.

End rant there.
And again, enjoy the thread. I'm out, I was out for a while and only came back because of someone claiming stat padding. You didn't do that here to my knowledge. As far as I'm concerned I'm good w/ you, but tbh this whole thread is just everyone trying to discredit the other players who they don't root for. Harden's getting the same, and I don't think I care to be sucked into it.

Cheers

[Starboy]

I feel like, by now, most people conceded that Rus is a bad defender this year while Curry is above average. Blindly repeating "Curry sucks man to man" with no basis to it, is so 2014. Most stats point to Curry being a better defender as well as the eye test.

[bondom34]

I feel like, by now, most people conceded that Rus is a bad defender this year while Curry is above average. Blindly repeating "Curry sucks man to man" with no basis to it, is so 2014. Most stats point to Curry being a better defender as well as the eye test.

Actually at this point calling Russ a bad defender, despite numbers mostly saying he's equal approximately to Curry is more out of date. BPM, Russ ahead, RPM, Curry slightly. Westbrook again being in OKC's defensive lineups mostly with good defense. The "he sucks at defense" argument is the great eye test, which doesn't hold up.

Edit: Bah I said I was out, go for it, Curry is better at everything you're right. Nobody can tie his shoelaces.

[lilswift01]

I really like Curry but to say he`s a good defender is totally out of line. He`s playing on a great defensive team so his stats will be inflated. If you isolate him, he's just not strong/quick enough to defend the great guards in this league.

Sometimes the best defense is a great offense and that's where Curry shines the most.

[CnG]

I feel like, by now, most people conceded that Rus is a bad defender this year while Curry is above average. Blindly repeating "Curry sucks man to man" with no basis to it, is so 2014. Most stats point to Curry being a better defender as well as the eye test.

Actually at this point calling Russ a bad defender, despite numbers mostly saying he's equal approximately to Curry is more out of date. BPM, Russ ahead, RPM, Curry slightly. Westbrook again being in OKC's defensive lineups mostly with good defense. The "he sucks at defense" argument is the great eye test, which doesn't hold up.

Edit: Bah I said I was out, go for it, Curry is better at everything you're right. Nobody can tie his shoelaces.

I don't think the whole 'Westbrook again being in OKC's defensive lineups mostly with good defense' holds much weight. Is it a surprise that Russ is mostly in good defensive lineups when he plays nearly all his minutes with Adams, Roberson and Oladipo? Didn't somebody work out that WB plays like 95% of his minutes alongside Adams?

In your MVP debates you've often said how it's easier Harden to rack up offensive stats due to his teammates being better on that side of the ball (which I agree with), but then bring up Westbrook's defence as a plus but don't seem to acknowledge the fact Russ plays with good-great (elite?) defenders.

You've done it again with Steph, saying 'well he plays alongside Durant and Draymond' like Russ' teammates aren't good defenders. You've called Adams and Oladipo "great deals" and "bargains" at their contracts, so you must like them more than you make out during the consistent downplay of their abilities on this topic.

I don't think it's as blasphemous as you make out by the sarcastic comments at the end to say Steph is a better defender than Russ. Sure, you can disagree, but that sarky response like you didn't just say Russ is clearly superior than IT, Harden and Steph on D the page before? Hmm.

Anyway, for me, Steph isn't even in the race. He's the Warriors best player but KD has been more consistent and played better (both ends) thus far (even with Steph's late resurgence).

Harden
Russ
KD/Kawhi
IT

[Starboy]

yes, me arguing against Westbrook's overrated defense means that Curry is better at everything...Take a deep breath, it's not that serious. That Kanter injury really must've gotten to you.


He's still #2 in the MVP race, don't worry.

[Impuniti]

[PeptoKlepto]

I feel like, by now, most people conceded that Rus is a bad defender this year while Curry is above average. Blindly repeating "Curry sucks man to man" with no basis to it, is so 2014. Most stats point to Curry being a better defender as well as the eye test.

Actually at this point calling Russ a bad defender, despite numbers mostly saying he's equal approximately to Curry is more out of date. BPM, Russ ahead, RPM, Curry slightly. Westbrook again being in OKC's defensive lineups mostly with good defense. The "he sucks at defense" argument is the great eye test, which doesn't hold up.

Edit: Bah I said I was out, go for it, Curry is better at everything you're right. Nobody can tie his shoelaces.

You're being overly melodramatic. The only reason people are bringing down Russell's defense is because YOU said his defense is "way better" than Curry's...which is an outright falsehood...and now you're getting sensitive because people are questioning it.

[PeptoKlepto]

MVP rankings 2/8 -

1. Russell Westbrook
2. James Harden

3. Stephen Curry
4. LeBron James
5. Kevin Durant

6. Kawhi Leonard
7. Kyle Lowry
8. John Wall

[bondom34]

I feel like, by now, most people conceded that Rus is a bad defender this year while Curry is above average. Blindly repeating "Curry sucks man to man" with no basis to it, is so 2014. Most stats point to Curry being a better defender as well as the eye test.

Actually at this point calling Russ a bad defender, despite numbers mostly saying he's equal approximately to Curry is more out of date. BPM, Russ ahead, RPM, Curry slightly. Westbrook again being in OKC's defensive lineups mostly with good defense. The "he sucks at defense" argument is the great eye test, which doesn't hold up.

Edit: Bah I said I was out, go for it, Curry is better at everything you're right. Nobody can tie his shoelaces.

You're being overly melodramatic. The only reason people are bringing down Russell's defense is because YOU said his defense is "way better" than Curry's...which is an outright falsehood...and now you're getting sensitive because people are questioning it.

I didn't say "way better" but "clearly better". There's a big difference. There can be a clear gap without it being massive.

I'm not sensitive about a thing, I do get annoyed with the arguments used to discredit.

[Bergmaniac]

Westbrook has no chance of winning MVP. None at all. He wasn't even voted as a starter in the ASG this year.

This doesn't make sense. MVP is chosen by a panel made of journalists and Westbrook was 1st in the media voting for the starting guards in the All-Star game which was done by a lot of the same people who vote for MVP.