The (Quadruple) Trade Thread, 2017 (Part 4.0)

[Andrew McCeltic]

What would you guys offer Miami for Hassan Whiteside?

Uh. Huh. Probably Amir Johnson, Terry Rozier, Jonas Jerebko? Maybe one or two non-BKN 1sts? Olynyk? Probably Zizic or Yabusele would be available?

Don't love Whiteside. The money could be worse. He'd help with our interior defense and rebounding. But he has no outside shot, he doesn't shoot free throws, he has energy/consistency issues, and as much as he's a rim protector, he's a sluggish positional defender.

That said, he'd solve two of our biggest problems single-handedly, and if we're not giving up IT, Smart, Bradley, Crowder, Jaylen Brown or the other two Brooklyn picks, paying him 22 million isn't the worst thing.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Good write-up here on how Whiteside struggled defensively in the playoffs: http://www.hothothoops.com/2016/5/6/11606854/hassan-whitesdie-has-become-a-defensive-liability-miami-heat-toronto-raptors-nba-playoffs

But if the price were right, you could get him, then go trade the other cap fodder (Zeller etc.) for Gallo, and have a sheer talent contender with two more BKN picks and a long enough window to swap out pieces of the core, and handle payroll issues, over time.

IT/Smart
Bradley/Brown
Gallo/Crowder
Horford/anyone
Whiteside/anyone

[Wes-J]

No on Whiteside. You don't just about empty the treasure chest for a guy that helps with rebounding and protects the rim.

[Andrew McCeltic]

No on Whiteside. You don't just about empty the treasure chest for a guy that helps with rebounding and protects the rim.

But do you empty the cup holder full of loose change for that guy? I think you might. Hayward's an elite scorer, but we've got two more BKN picks and trades to get someone as good as he is if we lose the cap room.

FWIW, Whiteside averages 14.1 rebounds in 32.9 minutes. Amir, in 19.9 minutes, averages 4.6 rebounds. Zeller, in 12 minutes, averages 3 rebounds. So give their minutes to Whiteside and you're getting 14 boards instead of 7 and a half.

It doesn't translate perfectly, the 6.5 extra rebounds a night, but we're currently 26th in rebound differential, and Miami is 20th.

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nba/stats/team-rebound-differential-per-game/2016/
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/rebounds-per-game/sort/avgReboundsDifference

If you did just add Whiteside's boards, he'd tip us up 1 offensive board and 6 defensive, and make us a top 10 rebounding team all by himself.

Trying to get more data, found http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000208-sports-and-racing-nba/73613776

But then someone did some mathematical investigation and arrived at a number that makes disregarding his blocks kinda stupid: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CgbE9DVUAAEPz7C.jpg

The sheer volume of blocks he's had this season and the technique he uses to keep them in bounds means he, as a defender, generates more possessions for his team than Kawhi Leonard does, by a significant margin. His blocks matter. He's not just volleyball spiking the rock into the front row, he's actively turning them into potential points, which is a valuable quality and something the Heat rely upon.


Nobody said his blocks don't matter, it's just people overvalue them. You posted some weird stat. I mean, a large part of Kawhi's defensive ability isn't how many possessions they retain, it's moreso how many points are prevented.

Here's more Whiteside stats.

He's ranked 7th worst in the NBA in post up giving up an average of 0.99 PPP and ranked in the 24th percentile in the NBA. He's a little better in the PnR game allowing only 0.86 PPP but that's again, good not great.

Tough player to evaluate.

[FlatearthZorro]

What would you guys offer Miami for Hassan Whiteside?

Interesting question. I like Whiteside a lot. I'm not really sure the Heat are looking to rebuild after the winning streak they just had. If it's now, I'd say you wont get BKN picks. Probably LAC/MEM picks, maybe even ours and a young guy + fillers(Amir or Zeller + Jerebko). In the summer depending on free agency, who knows Danny might trade a BKN 18 pick for Whiteside but with protection for sure(the new rule where u can add protection to picks u dont own).

[SmartWentCrazy]

What would you guys offer Miami for Hassan Whiteside?

Nothing that Reilly would accept.

Ainge could've had him for cap space alone last year and didn't even try to set up a FA meeting. Even though his stats have improved, I doubt Ainge's opinion on who he is as a person and how he'd fit on this team has changed much.

[chrisab123]

What would you guys offer Miami for Hassan Whiteside?

Nothing that Reilly would accept.

Ainge could've had him for cap space alone last year and didn't even try to set up a FA meeting. Even though his stats have improved, I doubt Ainge's opinion on who he is as a person and how he'd fit on this team has changed much.

Never understood why Whiteside wasn't plan B. He would fit this team like a glove. Maybe Ainge is afraid that once he got paid he would revert back into being a turd?

And yes I know he signed immediately but I think it had something to do with only two real teams being interested.

[Writebloc]

Just listening to Simmons' podcast and he had Sean Grande on, some pretty interesting reveals in the conversation. I think many Celtics' fans are more concerned about defensive rebounding than Ainge and the Celtics are. It seems like everyone on here, for logical reasons, is looking for a big, but it sounds like as Danny has said a while ago he is looking for an off the bench scorer.

I don't think Ainge will go all in for a Whiteside, or any other premier big because Stevens doesn't value that position. The Celtics understand that defensive rebounding is an area of weakness, but they believe that they can work around it. It will be interesting to see what Ainge actually does.

[chrisab123]

Just listening to Simmons' podcast and he had Sean Grande on, some pretty interesting reveals in the conversation. I think many Celtics' fans are more concerned about defensive rebounding than Ainge and the Celtics are. It seems like everyone on here, for logical reasons, is looking for a big, but it sounds like as Danny has said a while ago he is looking for an off the bench scorer.

I don't think Ainge will go all in for a Whiteside, or any other premier big because Stevens doesn't value that position. The Celtics understand that defensive rebounding is an area of weakness, but they believe that they can work around it. It will be interesting to see what Ainge actually does.

This is always been my concern. I don't think it's Brad. I think it's Danny. He has never valued bigs outside of KG. Especially ones that can rebound or protect the paint. It's very easy to see what the team philosophy is. Jack up 30+ 3 point shots a night and see what goes in and avoid driving in the paint if possible.

Which is kind of why I'm still shocked this team drafted Smart. This was probably one of the worst teams for him to go to for his development. Same with Brown. They aren't 3 point shooters. But they play excellent defense already so that helps. But I'm afraid the ceiling is lower for both than it would be on a lot of other teams.

Now Zizic won't be dealt because quite honestly there's no need to do so. Ainge went outside the box because he decided to keep all of his picks and really didn't have a choice. Yabu on the other hand is exactly the type of player that Ainge drafts. A tweener that has an outside shot.

But it does show this team has no interest in Okafor or Noel or any other big man on the market.

[Bohemian]

Just listening to Simmons' podcast and he had Sean Grande on, some pretty interesting reveals in the conversation. I think many Celtics' fans are more concerned about defensive rebounding than Ainge and the Celtics are. It seems like everyone on here, for logical reasons, is looking for a big, but it sounds like as Danny has said a while ago he is looking for an off the bench scorer.

I don't think Ainge will go all in for a Whiteside, or any other premier big because Stevens doesn't value that position. The Celtics understand that defensive rebounding is an area of weakness, but they believe that they can work around it. It will be interesting to see what Ainge actually does.

This is always been my concern. I don't think it's Brad. I think it's Danny. He has never valued bigs outside of KG. Especially ones that can rebound or protect the paint. It's very easy to see what the team philosophy is. Jack up 30+ 3 point shots a night and see what goes in and avoid driving in the paint if possible.

Which is kind of why I'm still shocked this team drafted Smart. This was probably one of the worst teams for him to go to for his development. Same with Brown. They aren't 3 point shooters. But they play excellent defense already so that helps. But I'm afraid the ceiling is lower for both than it would be on a lot of other teams.

Now Zizic won't be dealt because quite honestly there's no need to do so. Ainge went outside the box because he decided to keep all of his picks and really didn't have a choice. Yabu on the other hand is exactly the type of player that Ainge drafts. A tweener that has an outside shot.

But it does show this team has no interest in Okafor or Noel or any other big man on the market.

This is why Olynyk may stay put and Sully was let go. Ainge (and Brad) love mobile big men like Horford. They prefer bigs that can run the floor (see Zeller) or that can stretch the floor and pass (Horford, Oly). If you remember well, I think it was Smart or Bradley who said at the beginning of the season that everybody needs to help with the rebounding tasks, therefore they know it is something they have accepted to deal with.

So, who fits that description? A. Davis? Not in the market...

[Setshot33]

Rebounding Bigs: It's Danny's biggest blind spot as a GM.

It's a big reason why PP,KG and RA only got one title....that team screamed for a rebounder to help them and Danny only played lip service to the issue.

It's kind of weird that Danny played with the greatest front court in history,yet he devalues it's importance as a GM.

[Banks2Pierce]

They needed talent; they would figure out the rest later. The figuring it out part has been harder than expected, especially with both Jackson and Drummond plateauing. Detroit has quietly explored the trade market for each of its franchise centerpieces, according to sources across the league, and come away disappointed with the potential return. (Van Gundy himself has said anyone is available for "the right price.")

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18686427/zach-lowe-andre-drummond-reggie-jackson-detroit-pistons

My own feelings are that I wouldn't give up 2017 BKN and Detroit would need to do a move where they still can make the playoffs. He later mentioned Devin Booker and McCollum so I'm not sure we have the right fit for talent swapping. It is fairly interesting that they have called some places to see what Drummond would return.

[Banks2Pierce]

Rebounding Bigs: It's Danny's biggest blind spot as a GM.

It's a big reason why PP,KG and RA only got one title....that team screamed for a rebounder to help them and Danny only played lip service to the issue.

Perkins went down in Game 6 of the Finals and we had Sheed who had been coming off of a very good rebounding season. Garnett was one of the best rebounders of all time. Feels like a weak criticism to attack Ainge finding rebounders when the only year the big 3 Celtics fell out of the top 10 of defensive rebounding was when KG went down for the season.

[SmartWentCrazy]

What would you guys offer Miami for Hassan Whiteside?

Nothing that Reilly would accept.

Ainge could've had him for cap space alone last year and didn't even try to set up a FA meeting. Even though his stats have improved, I doubt Ainge's opinion on who he is as a person and how he'd fit on this team has changed much.

Never understood why Whiteside wasn't plan B. He would fit this team like a glove. Maybe Ainge is afraid that once he got paid he would revert back into being a turd?

And yes I know he signed immediately but I think it had something to do with only two real teams being interested.

Agreed-- his age and basketball skill fit couldn't have been higher. For whatever the reason, Ainge clearly had no interest in adding him to the team. Whatever culture/fit concerns they had aren't going to dissipate after half a season more of good play.

[Setshot33]

Kristic,Erden,Troy Murphy,Mikki Moore,Luke Harangody and Ryan Hollins don't exactly scream rebounding help.

Sheed was on his last legs when we got him and was expected to fill a "Bill Walton" type role(15-20 mins/game) . Kind of foolish to expect him to carry a load, don't you think?

All I'm saying here is Danny doesn't value rebounding bigs. His history clearly shows that.

[ParticleMan]

All I'm saying here is Danny doesn't value rebounding bigs. His history clearly shows that.

not sure about that. i think he has a history of drafting bigs who have rebounding as their primary skill, even when undersized. unfortunately it just hasn't worked out. powe was too injured. big baby davis was a big baby. sully was too fat. mickey... we'll see. hell you can even go back to brandon hunter in his first draft. i think he values rebounding as a translatable skill from college, but so far it's just kind of **** luck with those guys.

[LarryBirdsFingr]

I really want danny to hold onto that 18 pick, so he is FORCED to select a young potential stud big

[Writebloc]

I really want danny to hold onto that 18 pick, so he is FORCED to select a young potential stud big

You don't think that Ainge would take Doncic in a heart beat?

[cl2117]

I think the #1 need and target should be a big man who can rebound/protect the paint, but I think as an alternative (assuming that there isn't a big that fits that description that fits into Danny's long-term plans due to contract or cost to acquire) an off the bench volume scorer could have an almost equally positive impact.

We lose control of a lot of games due to offensive lulls that we can't pull ourselves out of without IT on the floor and a scorer off the bench could be the bridge we need between IT's stints on the court.

I'm still hoping for the Knicks finally pull the trigger on a Melo deal to LAC and we can get involved by bringing in the LAC 2019 first to allow LAC to send more draft assets New York's way and steal Redick out of the deal:

NYK out: Melo, Holiday
NYK in: Rivers, LAC 2019 first unprotected, LAC 2021 unprotected, Zeller (expiring)

LAC out: Rivers, Redick, removal of protections on 2019 first, 2021 first unprotected, Pierce
LAC in: Melo, Holiday

BOS out: LAC 2019 first lotto protected, Zeller (expiring)
BOS in: Redick, Pierce

It's a crap package for NYK, but if Cleveland isn't biting and we aren't helping out LAC seems like the only logical destination and with that kind of leverage they shouldn't need to give much up. We facilitate and get Redick.

I think he'd fit in seamlessly with the 2nd unit and is expiring so wouldn't affect cap space this summer.

[BakersDozen]

They needed talent; they would figure out the rest later. The figuring it out part has been harder than expected, especially with both Jackson and Drummond plateauing. Detroit has quietly explored the trade market for each of its franchise centerpieces, according to sources across the league, and come away disappointed with the potential return. (Van Gundy himself has said anyone is available for "the right price.")

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18686427/zach-lowe-andre-drummond-reggie-jackson-detroit-pistons

My own feelings are that I wouldn't give up 2017 BKN and Detroit would need to do a move where they still can make the playoffs. He later mentioned Devin Booker and McCollum so I'm not sure we have the right fit for talent swapping. It is fairly interesting that they have called some places to see what Drummond would return.

I wonder if DA inquired about Drummond


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