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Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread

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Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#1 » by pantalones » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:51 pm

First of all let me preface my comments by saying that I have been on RGM in one form or another since 2002 and I can say unequivocally that the Hornets/Bobcats/Hornets board here has to be the most loyal, patient, forgiving fan board here on RGM. You guys are so loyal to the team, players and management, willing to overlook even the most egregious mistakes, because, well, you're fans and love your team. That being said, Cho is just not good at his job and has rendered this team into a hodgepodge of mismatched parts that not only don't fit but are bereft of top quality talent. This team stinks and that lies solely on the shoulders of one Rich Cho. He's gotta go. What say you? Thanks
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#2 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:03 pm

I'm not anti-Hinkie, but I'm not sure that he would be successful here. Hinkie couldn't survive the process with an owner that was 100% on board in the early going. MJ isn't going to settle for being terrible again and getting draft picks. He's been there, done that, and the current team is the result.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#3 » by _tijo_ » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:08 pm

Not sure if I'm on board with the Hinkie thing. Cho has done a great job considering the constraints and the owner and his family meddling in drafts. Honestly think Cho just traded for Marco just so he didn't have to deal with MJ and his family in the draft room.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#4 » by pantalones » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:08 pm

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:I'm not anti-Hinkie, but I'm not sure that he would be successful here. Hinkie couldn't survive the process with an owner that was 100% on board in the early going. MJ isn't going to settle for being terrible again and getting draft picks. He's been there, done that, and the current team is the result.


The Hornets are terrible now. Hinkie has set the Sixers up for the foreseeable future with stud players and picks. The Hornets are stuck in basketball purgatory; boring irrelevance.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#5 » by pantalones » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:11 pm

_tijo_ wrote:Not sure if I'm on board with the Hinkie thing. Cho has done a great job considering the constraints and the owner and his family meddling in drafts. Honestly think Cho just traded for Marco just so he didn't have to deal with MJ and his family in the draft room.


How can anyone objectively say this? The team is terrible and it's top player is an undersized sg masquerading as a pg. Cho's drafting has been uninspiring, his trades have been equally bland and his free agent signings, other than re-upping his own players has been a catastrophe. By what metric has he done a "great job"?
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#6 » by chellis » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:33 pm

I personally admire what Hinkie did in Philly, but he very much was difficult to deal with - alienating players, agents, etc. So much so, the commish gave a gentle nudge that Philly needed to do something and change its ways. Hinkie is solid at trading, drafting (though if you gave me as many high 1st rounders in the drafts he had I'm sure I could have done equally well). When it comes to negotiations, we would need to have someone else handle that aspect unless Hinkie has learned from his mistakes. The man likes to play hardball, which I have no issue with, but the word "negotiations" implies two sides willing to talk and make sacrifices to come to an agreement.

All that said, I'm for Cho being fired, or at least demoted. We need a new vision for the team. Does it need to be a full on tank? I don't think so.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#7 » by CatgutStitches » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:36 pm

I for one hate the idea of tanking hard. The Sixers have been an absolute laughing stock for YEARS and they are still a bad team. Do they have theoretical pieces and a theoretical bright future? Sure...theoretically...but they have for years. I dont want to root for a team for years that doesnt have a chance to win most games. What teams have proven that tanking even works? It's simply a matter of good management, coaching and LUCK. We were doing pretty damn well this year before Cody went down if you recall.

Look at our garbage year. We broke the record for worst winning percentage, still didnt get the #1 pick, and even if we had the "generational talent" that is Anthony Davis is still toiling away on a bad team.

The whole thing is a roll of the dice regardless, give me a team that can actually compete. In this day and age, without a superteam you arent going to win the championship anyway.

This isnt NBA2k.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#8 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:43 pm

You don't have to tank if you can hit on draft picks. Cho & whomever else is in that room hasn't been able to do that very well so our own tanking lead to ... this. We've seen teams do short tanks or just get a bit bad but not terrible and still turn things around. I strongly suspect that MJ would want to go that route. He hated being bad and it doesn't look like the sacrifice was worth it last thime.

If here, Hinkie would be in a draft war room with over 20 folks with input on the choice, including MJ, his daughter, his financial manager, and many others. Hinkie would need to fight for his choices to make drafting work. Like I said. Just not sure he would be able to replicate his earlier success here.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#9 » by dmutombo321 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:45 pm

Cosigned on Hinkie.

I've advocated a Hinkie style rebuild for this team for years, and would be 100% on board hiring the man himself to helm it (provided that MJ will stay the course, not get impatient and derail the process prematurely)

In fact, I posted earlier this year about how the team is destination to continue to wallow in mediocrity as long as the current Kemba/MKG/Zeller/Batum/Frank core of this team stays intact. Kemba is a second option at best on a good team whereas Batum is best suited as a third.

Some folks are content making band aid trades to keep the team as a capped out perennial 40 something win fringe playoff contender each year (and first round fodder for the varsity teams), and that can be done.

But to actually join the ranks of the varsity tier, you have to have varsity talent. No amount of tweaking the group by merely swapping out one middling player for another is going to change the fact that the elite talent just isnt there.

The only way to do that is to blow it up (where no player is off the table) and shed salary in return for young prospects and draft picks and struggle for a couple years.

That 14 win Bobcats team was terrible but I was far more intrigued by their long term future than the capped out group we have now. They missed out on Anthony Davis in the Lotto by 1 pick and then the FO lost its patience by signing Al Jefferson to catapult them back to mediocrity prematurely before they had an opportunity to accumulate a couple more years of top 5 picks. MN and PHI did things right, as did OKC several years back. They waited until they had two franchise level talented players (Towns/Wiggins, Embiid/Simmons, Westbrook/Durant) before sprinkling in some veteran players to surround their youth, which I expect you can anticipate both MN and PHI doing this offseason.

The fan base is willing to be patient so long as they can see the long term payoff on the horizon and so long as there is young talent on the floor that makes the team exciting to watch.

(As an aside, I'm fine keeping Clifford. Yes, we all take issue with his rotation choices from time to time but he's by and large a good coach, who in my opinion usually makes the team better than the sum of its flawed parts)
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#10 » by pantalones » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:54 pm

CatgutStitches wrote:I for one hate the idea of tanking hard. The Sixers have been an absolute laughing stock for YEARS and they are still a bad team. Do they have theoretical pieces and a theoretical bright future? Sure...theoretically...but they have for years. I dont want to root for a team for years that doesnt have a chance to win most games. What teams have proven that tanking even works? It's simply a matter of good management, coaching and LUCK. We were doing pretty damn well this year before Cody went down if you recall.

Look at our garbage year. We broke the record for worst winning percentage, still didnt get the #1 pick, and even if we had the "generational talent" that is Anthony Davis is still toiling away on a bad team.

The whole thing is a roll of the dice regardless, give me a team that can actually compete. In this day and age, without a superteam you arent going to win the championship anyway.

This isnt NBA2k.


Embiid, Saric and Noel are not 'theoretical'. Simmons isn't "theoretical". Their two top 10 picks in what many are calling a great draft isn't "theoretical". The problem with your mindset is that it's based instant gratification. Patience is what's going to make the Sixers a great team, not short cutting your way to treadmill mediocrity because were afraid people might "laugh at us". The Hornets are a laughing stock now and what is there to show for it? Not one objective person would trade the Hornets roster for the Sixers one straight up.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#11 » by CatgutStitches » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:56 pm

Actually...Ive been thinking about it...can anyone actually give me a team that has obviously tanked and been a real contender? I cant think of any. PHI and MIN look good on paper but are still bad, so jury is out. There have been bad teams that got lucky but I just dont see multi-year tanking as a viable strategy.

The Cavs got LeBron back which is cheat mode, the Warriors got lucky in the draft with no real high picks (then of course added Durant)...The Raptors built kind of like us....the Clippers tanked for years for young talent and never did anything till they signed Chris Paul (actually the Clippers pre-Paul are a good example of why tanking DOESNT work)...The Spurs are the Spurs, no tanking there.

Doesnt seem worth it to me.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#12 » by Chapelchilla » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:56 pm

As a season ticket holder, I am NOT on board with a multiple season tank. I also don't think that the current team is that far off from being good. Not great, good. I am fine with watching good basketball going forward.

I am however 100% on board with tanking THIS season. If we can get a top flight PG SG or SF in the draft (Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum, Monk, Smith) and move MKG to the bench to improve the starters we would be a lot better. Return next year with a healthy Zeller and an in shape Plumlee with a decent veteran back up addition we would be a good team. Maybe even 50 win good.

I am fine with that. That team could be 2nd in the East with some luck and a lack of injuries. If Kyrie or LBJ got hurt we could take the East.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#13 » by Eoghan » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:58 pm

I will sign off on anything to do with firing Cho in big, John Hancock sized letters. Hinkie tank, mini-rebuild, retool, treadmill, whatever, I don't care. I just want a GM that can identify real talent in the draft and isn't afraid to wheel and deal on draft day to maximize assets. I will absolute be on board with Hinkie process, I just wish we had spent the last Bobcats years doing the Process instead of the "in case of owner emergency, break glass to begin treadmill" that we did.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#14 » by Eoghan » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:01 pm

CatgutStitches wrote:Actually...Ive been thinking about it...can anyone actually give me a team that has obviously tanked and been a real contender? I cant think of any. PHI and MIN look good on paper but are still bad, so jury is out. There have been bad teams that got lucky but I just dont see multi-year tanking as a viable strategy.

The Cavs got LeBron back which is cheat mode, the Warriors got lucky in the draft with no real high picks (then of course added Durant)...The Raptors built kind of like us....the Clippers tanked for years for young talent and never did anything till they signed Chris Paul (actually the Clippers pre-Paul are a good example of why tanking DOESNT work)...The Spurs are the Spurs, no tanking there.

Doesnt seem worth it to me.

The Spurs tanked for Duncan. I wish at the least our GM could identify good drafts and if the writing is on the wall for a lost season, classic tank like the Spurs did for Duncan to make use of a good draft.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#15 » by CatgutStitches » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:02 pm

pantalones wrote:
Embiid, Saric and Noel are not 'theoretical'. Simmons isn't "theoretical". Their two top 10 picks in what many are calling a great draft isn't "theoretical". The problem with your mindset is that it's based instant gratification. Patience is what's going to make the Sixers a great team, not short cutting your way to treadmill mediocrity because were afraid people might "laugh at us". The Hornets are a laughing stock now and what is there to show for it? Not one objective person would trade the Hornets roster for the Sixers one straight up.


I cant disagree with this more. What have any of those players you mentioned actually accomplished? If youre talking about building a championship caliber team they absolutely are theoretical. And if anyone was still thinking Embiid was going to do what hes doing before this season they certainly were quite about it. Youre saying a guy whos never played a game in the NBA isnt theoretical? Again, I cant disagree harder.

I do not believe in "instant gratification" I just dont think multi-year, full tank jobs work. I think you can build a competitive team and still make it a contender, there is no magic formula.

Im not saying we are in a good spot, but we have some pieces that work and some that dont. I love young potential talent as much as the next guy but it is just that, potential. Look at the Raptors for an example, they are a competitive team without tanking or signing a superstar/team. Its just luck of the draw and good management. (Again not that we necessarily have that)
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#16 » by CatgutStitches » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:05 pm

Eoghan wrote:The Spurs tanked for Duncan. I wish at the least our GM could identify good drafts and if the writing is on the wall for a lost season, classic tank like the Spurs did for Duncan to make use of a good draft.


This I agree with. Our FO could certainly do a better job and Im all for recognizing a lost season and capitalizing on it. They may have tanked for Duncan but it was a situational thing. They added him to an already good team with a great FO and coach in place. Kind of a different situation, and it was not a multi-year tank job.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#17 » by Snidely FC » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:05 pm

I like to see the team be competitive. I was excited the first month of the season.I didn't think this team could win a championship, but competing for 3rd 4th seed and being fun to watch was fine with me. I just like to see good basketball. That first month was fun. If we'd kept that up and lost a competitive playoff match, as a 3-5 seed, I'd've been cool with that. I have no desire to see the team be unwatchable, the way they've been lately, and no desire to sign up for them to be terrible for years on end. I like some of the core players. MGMT has set up a difficult challenge with recent salary adds to round out the roster, but I think we're two good players away from being a top 4 team in the east, and I'd rather have that than be lottery bound for years on end.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#18 » by chellis » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:07 pm

Eoghan wrote:
CatgutStitches wrote:Actually...Ive been thinking about it...can anyone actually give me a team that has obviously tanked and been a real contender? I cant think of any. PHI and MIN look good on paper but are still bad, so jury is out. There have been bad teams that got lucky but I just dont see multi-year tanking as a viable strategy.

The Cavs got LeBron back which is cheat mode, the Warriors got lucky in the draft with no real high picks (then of course added Durant)...The Raptors built kind of like us....the Clippers tanked for years for young talent and never did anything till they signed Chris Paul (actually the Clippers pre-Paul are a good example of why tanking DOESNT work)...The Spurs are the Spurs, no tanking there.

Doesnt seem worth it to me.

The Spurs tanked for Duncan. I wish at the least our GM could identify good drafts and if the writing is on the wall for a lost season, classic tank like the Spurs did for Duncan to make use of a good draft.


They did tank for Duncan, mainly because Robinson was out for the season with injury.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#19 » by chellis » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:14 pm

I for one am for a "rest of this season tank". There is what, 3 games that separate us from our current pick and a potential type 5 pick? We have too many injuries and poor play as of late. I don't think we need to do a complete rebuild. It was painful for us before and we bailed out early. MJ won't allow it, nor should he. The only team that I think was full on tank mode and was successful with it is Seattle/OKC. They lucked into solid trades, draft positions, etc. Then they did something we don't do well: DEVELOP TALENT.

We are locked in to the long term deals of Batum and Plumlee. Someone may take Batum off our hands if that's the way we wanted to go, but Plumlee is stuck here. All this said, let's recognize what this season is, a disappointment with injuries. I'm always quick to want to trade MKG, but the man is coming off two torn labrums (that and he's better suited off the bench until he learns how to shoot a corner 3 in my book). Let's aim at getting a top 5 pick, maybe top 3 if we are lucky, and look to grow and improve. If we land one of the PG prospects, then we can mold them into something and move Kemba later on if need be. We can use the pick and make a trade for a much better player. It gives us options.
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Re: Official fire Cho, hire Hinkie thread 

Post#20 » by Mystical Apples » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:58 pm

Tanking sounds great until you realize 12 franchises with lesser talent and far more difficult remaining schedules will tank harder. Besides, injuries could drop The Lebron's to the 2nd - or even the 3rd seed - making that 8th seed/16th pick proposition juicier than tanking for the 7th pick but realistically settling for the 13th.

I would, however, avoid short-term gains and instead focus on acquiring a young-ish Playoff piece that'll remain a Hornet beyond this season.

* It's incredibly reductive to assume Hinkie = tanking. He exploited very specific conditions that won't necessarily present themselves again. Basically the escalating salary cap + CBA + NBADL + non-mathy GM arbitrage. And in fact, his best moves were normal GM things like trades.
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