The (Quintessential) Trade Thread, 2017 (Part 5.0)

[bucknersrevenge]

If he's available for cheap he could really help the C's

Makes 7 million next year, 0% chance we trade for him unless we make a big splash and use up our cap space next year first. Next.

How is 7 million a lot for a guy that can drop 20+ on any given night when a total worthless scrub like Zeller makes 8 million...

Don't think of it as 7 million in a vacuum. Think of it as 7 million against the max or super max deals that we can potentially offer or a salary slot that we can trade a star into this offseason. 7 million doesn't seem like much but a few million can make a huge difference. Ask Al Horford.

[TheMartian]

FWIW:

Chris Mannix says Celtics getting a ton of interest in Marcus Smart namely from Orlando and Sacramento.

Let them drool.

[bucknersrevenge]

He took us to the 7th seed in the worst year any conference has ever had before we got DICKSLAPPED by the Cavs.

Fine... I like IT well enough, but if you guys are set on it, let's do this.

Read on Twitter

None of the true Celtic greats would have ever spoke in this manner. 17 titles, 0 scoring champions, despite having guys like Bird who could have won them at will.

Dude is playing for accolades and a max contract.

We may be able to work with that going forward. No question he can close games like a **** against non-elite teams. Reminiscent of the Derrick Rose MVP year in some respects.

But that's not the "goal".

Hmmm...that quote is taken out of context. After that sentence he said something to the effect of "Yeah I'm confident that I can do it. But that's NOT the goal. If I get it, I get it. If I don't, I don't." Someone completely rearranged that quote.

EDIT: After seeing the interview, he said that, but what he also said was "I'm confident I can but like I said I'm not chasin that. Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't....etc" Then he spoke with reverence about having his name mentioned with All-time Celtic greats. He knos his job here is to score with this team. So he wants to be the best at that but he also makes it clear that it's all about the winning. And to say none of the Celtics greats would have spoken like he has is just silly. Bird spoke like him and worse all the time. Bird was beyond confident. He was cocky. He knew he was great and didn't mind telling you; on or off the court.

Watch on YouTube

Right on, glad to hear it. Doesn't sit well with me as quoted, and my bad for not reading into it more.

As to past Celtic greats, or any Patriot greats, Bird spoke competitively, for the most part. He certainly didn't play like a guy concerned with scoring championships.

Fair point. And with me it wouldn't either, I agree. In this particular case I think it is a competitive thing in terms of wanting to simply be the best at his job. I mean...he's a 5'9 point guard with an incredible chip on his shoulder. He strikes me as wanting to be the best scorer for being the best scorer's sake but he wants to win. You can see in most of his comments the deference he gives to this franchise and specifically Danny and Brad for really not only saving his career but giving it an unqualified boost. He will sing Boston's praises from every mountaintop like a spiritual.

[Ben-N1ce]

He took us to the 7th seed in the worst year any conference has ever had before we got DICKSLAPPED by the Cavs.

Fine... I like IT well enough, but if you guys are set on it, let's do this.

Read on Twitter

None of the true Celtic greats would have ever spoke in this manner. 17 titles, 0 scoring champions, despite having guys like Bird who could have won them at will.

Dude is playing for accolades and a max contract.

We may be able to work with that going forward. No question he can close games like a **** against non-elite teams. Reminiscent of the Derrick Rose MVP year in some respects.

But that's not the "goal".

Hmmm...that quote is taken out of context. After that sentence he said something to the effect of "Yeah I'm confident that I can do it. But that's NOT the goal. If I get it, I get it. If I don't, I don't." Someone completely rearranged that quote.

EDIT: After seeing the interview, he said that, but what he also said was "I'm confident I can but like I said I'm not chasin that. Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't....etc" Then he spoke with reverence about having his name mentioned with All-time Celtic greats. He knos his job here is to score with this team. So he wants to be the best at that but he also makes it clear that it's all about the winning. And to say none of the Celtics greats would have spoken like he has is just silly. Bird spoke like him and worse all the time. Bird was beyond confident. He was cocky. He knew he was great and didn't mind telling you; on or off the court.

Watch on YouTube

Right on, glad to hear it. Doesn't sit well with me as quoted, and my bad for not reading into it more.

As to past Celtic greats, or any Patriot greats, Bird spoke competitively, for the most part. He certainly didn't play like a guy concerned with scoring championships.

Bird used to have ball boys get stats at arenas so he'd have something to motivate him and break the records..

[CelticFaninLBC]

I'm so bored of the I.T trade debate. Who were we going to draft if we tanked harder? Okafor, Willie Stein, Mudiay, Hezonja? Maybe Frank Kaminsky or Winslow? Give me Thomas gift wrapped over any of those dudes..

They could have had Winslow or Booker, I guess. I'll take IT and Crowder over either. What Caveman is essentially advocating is not adding Crowder either, who helped win games that year too.

Absolutely not true. I was one of the very, very few who supported the Rondo trade in real time (along with humblebum, ironically). 90% of you thought we got jacked and cried and cried and cried about it.

Also worth mentioning that you can trade for whoever you want as long as you do what every other tanking team does and sit people with minor injuries. I was rarely particularly vocal about the IT trade itself as opposed to the fact that we didn't shut it down after starting that year 16-30.

IT had 2 win shares in 21 games for Boston that year. You're basically griping about missing out on Devin Booker.

[Captain_Caveman]

They could have had Winslow or Booker, I guess. I'll take IT and Crowder over either. What Caveman is essentially advocating is not adding Crowder either, who helped win games that year too.

Absolutely not true. I was one of the very, very few who supported the Rondo trade in real time (along with humblebum, ironically). 90% of you thought we got jacked and cried and cried and cried about it.

Also worth mentioning that you can trade for whoever you want as long as you do what every other tanking team does and sit people with minor injuries. I was rarely particularly vocal about the IT trade itself as opposed to the fact that we didn't shut it down after starting that year 16-30.

IT had 2 win shares in 21 games for Boston that year. You're basically griping about missing out on Devin Booker.

Really?

[CelticFaninLBC]

Absolutely not true. I was one of the very, very few who supported the Rondo trade in real time (along with humblebum, ironically). 90% of you thought we got jacked and cried and cried and cried about it.

Also worth mentioning that you can trade for whoever you want as long as you do what every other tanking team does and sit people with minor injuries. I was rarely particularly vocal about the IT trade itself as opposed to the fact that we didn't shut it down after starting that year 16-30.

IT had 2 win shares in 21 games for Boston that year. You're basically griping about missing out on Devin Booker.

Really?

He played 21 freaking games that year. Brandon Bass was a much bigger tank killer that year.

[djFan71]

My opinion on this dude hasn't moved an inch. Can't win a title with him in a starring role, because you have to marry yourself to a ceiling just to do that. He can be on the floor to help close games like Jamal Crawford is, but like Crawford, the dude is best suited to a 6th man role on a real team.

With his ceiling are you referring to defense, or some offensive limitation when D gets tighter in the playoffs where you don't think he can be THE stud on a title team? Either of those, I buy. But the 6th man, I'm not sure anymore. Offensively, he's grown a ton this year and added a lot to his game. I was on the 6th man preference last year, but came off it this year. I think he can be one of your top 3 on a title team. He's playing a lot better off the ball, so I don't think you need him to dominate it to be effective if there was another guy there with elite scoring.

Now, defensively, I don't think he's worst in the league or anything (bottom X for sure), but you also can't bring in someone even like a Lillard to share scoring load, cuz it just won't work on the other end with both of them. So, if your rationale for the 6th man view, is you can't get another elite scorer in there in combo with IT since you lose on the other end, then that makes some sense. You definitely need that person to be a 2-way stud for it to work. But, if you had that person - LeBron, Kawhi, KD - I definitely think IT can start in a title team alongside them. So, sure, he wouldn't be the starring role, but I don't think he necessarily needs to be banished to the bench either. I mean, would you take Kyrie over him at this point? Last year, hell yeah. This year, I dunno. If IT was on the Cavs instead, LeBron sure wouldn't be whining about needing another playmaker.

[Smog]

All of this griping about IT reminds me of the pre-Super Bowl Pats fans in 2000/2001, who thought we were doomed without Terry Glenn, not realizing the players we had were winning and pretty good.

At some point we have to stop lusting after stars on losing teams and start appreciating that we have young improving players who keep winning more and more games. We may look back at players like IT and Smart and Bradley and Crowder and realize they were the stars we wanted all along. IT is already there for most of us, and Smart for instance is getting there.

[Writebloc]

Spoiler:

Meh. The Nets trade is nearly 100% of the reason we have a shot to be a contender one day.

Without the Nets completely bottoming out, this rebuild is complete fool's gold. And I mean all of it. Stevens, IT, the rest of the starting lineup... none of it would matter at all. Let's be perfectly clear that, realistically speaking, IT would not be a top 3 player on the Warriors, and would certainly not start for them.

Channel your inner Patriots fans and think of how silly it is for fans of teams like the Raiders to brag about 5th place, and having an MVP "candidate" in Derek Carr.

You may think you are giving a gotcha here, but I read this stuff from the IT fanboys and just shake my head. You don't get it. Any of it. You see 5th place as an accomplishment, and I see it as failure.

This is so wrong on so many levels it is laughable.

It takes a big man to admit they're wrong, well I guess we have the answer to that question right there. You'll bring out the David Lee, Jerry West pu pu platter because that's what you do, but it is all bs.

This team as currently constructed with only limited contributions from James Young and Jaylen Brown, the boon from the Nets trade thus far, are in second place in the East with a real opportunity to take the top seed in the Eastern Conference. The current run they've been on has been accomplished without one of their key contributors and this team has weathered every injury sent their way to continue to play at a high level.

You've been wrong about the soft tank and you've doubled and tripled down on it on subsequent seasons. IT is now tied with Celtics' legend John Havlichek for the most 20+ games in the history of the franchise. He's having an epic season, an MVP season and for some reason you want to throw salt at the "fan boys." Please, maybe you should recognize the fact that Ainge pulled off another heist of a deal when he grabbed this guy at the deadline. Instead you'll whine and throw shade that anybody could have had IT at any time. Guess what that's why the majority of the GM's in the league aren't very good. Possibly you could acknowledge that IT the player has developed and evolved his game to be in the conversation as one of the best players in the league. You won't because it's all sour grapes. Your forecast was wrong from the start. Get over it. There are no points for being right on a message board.

It won't matter because you'll trot out the KG trade, and whatever other crap you hang your hat on, like anyone freaking cares. You're trying to tell the board that Brad Stevens doesn't matter - he does. You're trying to tell the rest of the board that the development of Smart, Crowder, Kelly, Avery doesn't matter - it does. You've been trying to say that developing the winning mindset doesn't matter, well as they've battled through the adversity this year it is clear - it does.

Channeling my inner Patriots fan I can recognize what Brady and Belichek built is special and unique. I also know the NBA is a far different animal than the NFL and there really isn't a comparison to be drawn. So your quip about Derek Carr is just more shade seemingly drawn from a never ending reserve. If the Celtics capture the first seed in the Eastern Conference, IT has every right to the MVP trophy and he's certainly and rightfully in the discussion throughout the entire league nationally and otherwise.

So here bring your fire and your venom, I'm ready for your brimstone, but it's time you just admit you were wrong and have been wrong for three seasons. Just get over yourself. If you think this team is a failure you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of sports and the NBA and you lose all credibility. It takes a big man to admit they were wrong, be a bigger man.

IT : Andy Dalton :: Curry : Brady

There's nothing wrong with Andy Dalton,and I'm sure that Bengals fans are happy with the guy. Carried his team to the playoffs time and again, and has even been an "MVP candidate" a couple of times (if being 5th in the voting = candidate).

But it's not good enough.

Our team has won 17 titles with guys like Russell, Bird, Cowens and KG. If you don't have guys of that caliber, and we most certainly do not, you are not winning a title, and that's all there is to it.

Underline those last two sentences and read them again and again and again if you need to. That should not even need to be explained to a Boston sports fan, IMO. Everything you do in rebuilding should be geared towards getting one of those guys.

Not IT. Not the "10th best player" in Jimmy Butler. Not a crazy cancer in DeMarcus Cousins. And most certainly not David Lee.

Anything else is picking out the curtains before you buy the house. Anything else gives you a non-contending ceiling like the Toronto Raptors and Cincinnati Bengals.

I can still watch and enjoy it, and the rest of you are perfectly allowed to do so. I'm not the one calling people out, or trying to turn a victory cigar thread that is so clearly about Smart into a talk about IT.

You can have all that. Never throwing the first punch, as always. But I will respond when called out by people happy with 5th place.

This just proves that one, you're a fraud and two you don't know jack about two sports!

Curry is Tom Brady? Curry is equal to the GOAT? You've been in NorCal too long. Curry has a long time to go and a hell of a lot more to prove before he gets close to Brady status. Let me help you out on that one Brady is analogous to MJ there is no other comparison. To top it all off the greatest players in their respective sports never won the title every year neither did either of the big 3. This hypercompetitiveness that you mention is bogus and a cover up because you can't face the fact that you are wrong and been wrong for a long time. You're better than this Cave, I light a candle for you.

[jirrit]

FWIW, IT was freely available to absolutely any team that wanted him in the 2011 draft, again in free agency in 2014, and again at the 2015 trade deadline. The idea that he would have been a super difficult get 28 games later is unrealistic to me.

I've seen this argument before but what does that matter? He's with us now and I bet there are many teams wanting him on that deal on their team. He is 2nd in PPG, first in PPG in the 4th. But yeah he's been available cheap in the past so F him.

[jirrit]

All of this griping about IT reminds me of the pre-Super Bowl Pats fans in 2000/2001, who thought we were doomed without Terry Glenn, not realizing the players we had were winning and pretty good.

At some point we have to stop lusting after stars on losing teams and start appreciating that we have young improving players who keep winning more and more games. We may look back at players like IT and Smart and Bradley and Crowder and realize they were the stars we wanted all along. IT is already there for most of us, and Smart for instance is getting there.

Yeah. Stars are not always there from the start. You can also 'make/create' them or they just all of a sudden appear right in the squad. Not saying that happens a lot, but it can happen.

[bwgood77]

Read on Twitter

[Smeff10]

How did this thread get hijacked by talking about IT and if he is great or not. Off topic

[jfs1000d]

Danny Ainge is unsentimental, I could see him dealing Amir/Smart for Vuc.

The argument would be that we have guard depth, it's a guard draft, Rozier is going to be good, we can't pay IT, Bradley *and* Marcus what they deserve, it's hard to get good bigs..

Smart is the guts of the team, though. Rare to find guys who make defensive plays like he does - where the steal or block is so unlikely you see 9 guys lurch to a stop all at once to change direction. Noel makes plays like that, too.

Just no clue how Ainge is seeing the board, or how he evaluates guys.

Wait. Orlando wants Smart? What about Payton?

Lol.




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[darrendaye]

Read on Twitter

Pretty solid analysis. Left out the cap space/free agency considerations on the no trade side of the ledger. Good article overall. I'm not doing a Butter deal now, personally.

[FeedReed]

if the c's trade smart, i'm taking legal action against ainge. anyone but smart!

[OBisHalJordan]

Next level thread title. Bet you've been planning this for weeks

I don't think ever posted in these trade threads and I rarely read them but, when I saw the title to this one, I laughed and figured someone put way to much thought into it. Kudos to you parliament!

[chrisab123]

FWIW:

Chris Mannix says Celtics getting a ton of interest in Marcus Smart namely from Orlando and Sacramento.

Let them drool.

I'd absolutely move him in a Cousins deal

[SmartWentCrazy]

He took us to the 7th seed in the worst year any conference has ever had before we got DICKSLAPPED by the Cavs.

Fine... I like IT well enough, but if you guys are set on it, let's do this.

Read on Twitter

None of the true Celtic greats would have ever spoke in this manner. 17 titles, 0 scoring champions, despite having guys like Bird who could have won them at will.

Dude is playing for accolades and a max contract.

We may be able to work with that going forward. No question he can close games like a **** against non-elite teams. Reminiscent of the Derrick Rose MVP year in some respects.

But that's not the "goal".

Hmmm...that quote is taken out of context. After that sentence he said something to the effect of "Yeah I'm confident that I can do it. But that's NOT the goal. If I get it, I get it. If I don't, I don't." Someone completely rearranged that quote.

EDIT: After seeing the interview, he said that, but what he also said was "I'm confident I can but like I said I'm not chasin that. Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't....etc" Then he spoke with reverence about having his name mentioned with All-time Celtic greats. He knos his job here is to score with this team. So he wants to be the best at that but he also makes it clear that it's all about the winning. And to say none of the Celtics greats would have spoken like he has is just silly. Bird spoke like him and worse all the time. Bird was beyond confident. He was cocky. He knew he was great and didn't mind telling you; on or off the court.

Watch on YouTube

Right on, glad to hear it. Doesn't sit well with me as quoted, and my bad for not reading into it more.

As to past Celtic greats, or any Patriot greats, Bird spoke competitively, for the most part. He certainly didn't play like a guy concerned with scoring championships.

Forgetting 2007, where Brady, Moss and Belichick all tried to set records? Or how Belichick had Flutie take a drop kick? Or throw a meaningless TD pass with Vinny Testaverde to give him a record?

Or how about how the best player in the league has been abundantly clear on how he's overpaid and deserves more? Does that make LeBron a lesser player?

Many players, with championship pedigrees, chase money and scoring records. They're not meaningless accomplishments. You're a great poster, and I largely agree with your points on tanking, but you're being incredibly nitpicky here.