Markelle Fultz

[jrob23]

none of those names seem to match up with what your saying

told ya. Knew you'd deflect. It's okay...you and others are blind fanboys. No sense in wasting my time responding to you. Have a good one.

[jrob23]

I haven't been around lately, been real busy so I haven't kept up with the draft a ton. What's the current talk going on about Fultz. Has there been any concerns about the speed at which he plays the game. He seems like he is in 3rd gear all the time. I am a little concerned about him defensively as well as him getting separation on his shot at the next level. Has anyone else expressed similar concerns?

He's easily the best prospect despite being sloppy, a poor FT shooter, and underwhelming athlete who is a chucker that doesn't come through in the clutch nor make his teammates better. Just ask his fanboys they'll tell you.

Oh you want the truth? Okay. He's been the consensus #1 prospect all season despite the above deficiencies because his fans are blind to them and/or they believe those things don't matter or he won't be burdened with bad teammates and coach in the NBA. Other prospects have had better years and should be taken before him notably Ball and Jackson. When you factor in upside there's several others who might be taken ahead of him. We won't know until draft night where he goes. We won't know for a few years if his apologists are I are right about him being overrated. But I am not manufacturing his bad defense, turnovers, lack of clutch performance and failing to make his teammates better and win games. Those are facts. The difference between me and others is I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong and won't hide. So see you guys in a few years either way!

I"m out. Don't want to "troll" this thread anymore.

[antonac]

is it just me or does Fultz seem to be relying on being taller/longer than a lot of his match ups? he's down as an elite ball handler but a lot of his mid-range efforts seem to be taken with almost no seperation, lots of fade aways, and he does finish well in contact but again, he's always finishing in contact rather than carving a gap for himself.

cool in college but that will prove a problem in the NBA when he's up against more nuanced defenders and bigger guys,

[SirChurros]

Not that it matters a whole lot, but do we think Fultz is 6'4" or 6'5"?

I've seen both.

[RipCity71252]

is it just me or does Fultz seem to be relying on being taller/longer than a lot of his match ups? he's down as an elite ball handler but a lot of his mid-range efforts seem to be taken with almost no seperation, lots of fade aways, and he does finish well in contact but again, he's always finishing in contact rather than carving a gap for himself.

cool in college but that will prove a problem in the NBA when he's up against more nuanced defenders and bigger guys,

There is not doubt that he'll have to be quicker and more efficient in his movements if he wants to do a lot of what he's doing at the next level.

A lot people think he'll be able to score right away and I guess that's partly true, but there will definitely be a learning curve for him and I think people's feelings on him are largely based on his ability to work past that and figure out how he will get to his spots that give him the best chance to be effective.

The best one's know this inside and out and it's really what makes or breaks these talented scoring guards.

[bon]

is it just me or does Fultz seem to be relying on being taller/longer than a lot of his match ups? he's down as an elite ball handler but a lot of his mid-range efforts seem to be taken with almost no seperation, lots of fade aways, and he does finish well in contact but again, he's always finishing in contact rather than carving a gap for himself.

cool in college but that will prove a problem in the NBA when he's up against more nuanced defenders and bigger guys,

I've been having the same exact concerns myself. Nice to see I'm not the only one. I've noticed a lot of his shooting highlights are just him doing a simple (but not very quick) stepback, his defender closes out fairly well, but he simply shoots over the top of him and makes the shot.

This is pretty concerning to me because as a 6'4 guy, he can't rely on just shooting over people in the NBA if he wants to be an elite shot maker. Guys like McCollum, and Lillard impressed me so much in college with their shot making capabilities because of how quick and effective their separation moves were.

Right now, I'm just not seeing that with Fultz

[reanimator]

A lot people think he'll be able to score right away and I guess that's partly true, but there will definitely be a learning curve for him and I think people's feelings on him are largely based on his ability to work past that and figure out how he will get to his spots that give him the best chance to be effective.

Nope, I'm not of the belief in an adjustment period. No one is getting to that release point and may have the best elevation on a pull-up that I can remember...I worry much more about DSJ and Ball in that regard and had similar concerns with D'Angelo Russell. Like I've said before, my only concerns are FTs, extending his range, defensive engagement (not ability) and adding strength. I think we're at the "over analysis" portion of the season so I expect it but this is just something we will have to see play out next season.

[E-Balla]

I don't know why people engage him in this thread. He has an excuse for everything. Arizona didn't have Allen but has ample 5 star long, athletic wings (Alkins, Simmons) and Rustic isn't some defensive titan. Knocking down FTs are a problem but never seen someone negate a person getting to the line frequently and keeping a bad roster competitive against a top 5 team. He played 39 minutes of highly efficient basketball sans the last minute of chucking trying to lessen the score disparity.

No one will answer this though...When was the last time a top 5 pick led a roster this bad to a good record in a Power 5 league?

the reason why it's hard to do is because great players make players around them better so you end up thinking it's a great team when in fact it's mostly because of one player or a great coach/system.

Can you cite some examples of this?

Not saying I agree with him and his post was looney toons but Lonzo is doing this right now. Of course his team isn't as bad as Washington but they aren't good and he has them looking like the best offense in the NCAA. I'd say DSJ is similar (his talent is horrible).

[reanimator]

the reason why it's hard to do is because great players make players around them better so you end up thinking it's a great team when in fact it's mostly because of one player or a great coach/system.

Can you cite some examples of this?

Not saying I agree with him and his post was looney toons but Lonzo is doing this right now. Of course his team isn't as bad as Washington but they aren't good and he has them looking like the best offense in the NCAA. I'd say DSJ is similar (his talent is horrible).

I see multiple NBA players on that UCLA roster, Lonzo or no Lonzo. I don't agree that DSJ is making NCST better and I'm not one to agree the talent level there is horrible but I'm not doing that argument again for the 10000x.

Wade is the only person on that list that was reasonable. He took an elite Kenpom offense with a really bad defense further than any other team with a similar profile.

[Marcus]

Can you cite some examples of this?

Not saying I agree with him and his post was looney toons but Lonzo is doing this right now. Of course his team isn't as bad as Washington but they aren't good and he has them looking like the best offense in the NCAA. I'd say DSJ is similar (his talent is horrible).

I see multiple NBA players on that UCLA roster, Lonzo or no Lonzo. I don't agree that DSJ is making NCST better and I'm not one to agree the talent level there is horrible but I'm not doing that argument again for the 10000x.

Wade is the only person on that list that was reasonable. He took an elite Kenpom offense with a really bad defense further than any other team with a similar profile.

and I thank you for that.

[SirChurros]

NC State is 15-14 and just fired its coach. Not sure how DSJ is making them better.

[SirChurros]

After not really seeing a whole lot of him, the heated debate in this thread made me go back and watch some Fultz highlights/games. Definitely sold on this kid. His game is almost effortless at time and anyone who argues "lack of competition" is just ignorant. It's not like he's Lillard playing at Weber State.

[cksdayoff]

After not really seeing a whole lot of him, the heated debate in this thread made me go back and watch some Fultz highlights/games. Definitely sold on this kid. His game is almost effortless at time and anyone who argues "lack of competition" is just ignorant. It's not like he's Lillard playing at Weber State.

you have to watch an entire game to see how incompetent the players around him are. none of them can facillitate or can handle PG duties. The frontcourt is atrocious at rebounding and the team as a whole cannot play defense if their lives depended on it.

[scrabbarista]

I haven't been around lately, been real busy so I haven't kept up with the draft a ton. What's the current talk going on about Fultz. Has there been any concerns about the speed at which he plays the game. He seems like he is in 3rd gear all the time. I am a little concerned about him defensively as well as him getting separation on his shot at the next level. Has anyone else expressed similar concerns?

I have zero doubt he'll be able to get separation. He's going to be able to get wherever he wants to go on the floor in the NBA.

Defensively, I can't be certain, because I haven't watched whole games, but I don't see him having problems there, either. He clearly has the tools, he's a legitimate shot blocker in the mold of D-Wade, and my guess is any perceived shortcomings on that end are due to carrying such a heavy load on offense and/or the general malaise that elite recruits at weak programs may be feeling due to disillusionment with having to play college ball at all. We won't know until he's maybe spent a few months in the league, but I badly want to find out whether Ben Simmons represents a trend in this regard (the trend being top recruits who've taken the red pill on the NCAA and therefore appear not to care, then get to the NBA and wreck it), or whether it should be a legitimate concern. My guess is the former.

I saved the third gear issue for last, because it's clearly true. I'm not so sure this shouldn't actually be interpreted in his favor, though. It gives me the impression he's a sleeping giant of a talent. I have him number one because the tools are eye-popping (he honestly looks like he might still be growing), the numbers are there, and there seems to be unbiased reports of his work ethic that are overwhelmingly positive, buuuuut.... I keep trying to talk myself into Ball number one, because he's so complete. I believe Ball is the kind of player who's always going to be better than his stats, no matter how great his stats become.

I just love these kinds of questions, because I keep believing I'm going to eventually "unlock the code" to predicting future success of prospects, even though it really amounts to predicting the future, which pretty much nobody can do consistently.

[jrob23]

Fultz had his best game of the year in the first meeting with Washington State, almost a triple double. They are a terrible team with very poor defense. He does very well against poor opposition. Expect the usual crowd to get hyped over his performance tonight. it's what they do. For the rest of you, who are trying to be objective, wait to see how he does against UCLA on Wednesday night. That game should be the deciding factor in how you judge him as it will be against a great opponent and Lonzo Ball. Even I can be swayed if he comes out and plays lights out on both ends. He'll never be more motivated, it's the 2nd to last game, it's on National TV (FS1) and his last chance to really show the world who he is. At this point it would take quite a game to move him into my top 6. I have moved him up past DSJ recently.

[reanimator]

At this point it would take quite a game to move him into my top 6. I have moved him up past DSJ recently.

Could you post your big board, I'm legitimately curious

[jrob23]

After not really seeing a whole lot of him, the heated debate in this thread made me go back and watch some Fultz highlights/games. Definitely sold on this kid. His game is almost effortless at time and anyone who argues "lack of competition" is just ignorant. It's not like he's Lillard playing at Weber State.

yeah, that's what laymans do. They don't watch complete games. They watch cherry picked highlights with him scoring and blocking shots. How can you form an informed opinion that way? You can't that's how. Everyone who hypes this kid is mostly like you. It's groupthink. This is what draft sites do too which is why they're laughably ignorant as well. If you can't see the difference in his performances against the poorer Pac 12 and out of conference teams on their schedule, and the better teams than you aren't really interested in objective analysis.

The fact is, he is able to get shots off in college because he has a height/skill and athleticism advantage against most. At the next level he'll still have a size advantage and some skill advantage but not with athleticism. Those drives to the basket and finishes will simply not happen on the next level at the rate they do in college. That's a huge part of his game. You take that away and you'll be left with a jump shooter who is elite off PnR. Since that is huge in today's NBA, I can see him having a modicum of success. But because he's just a slightly above average athlete he will not be able to get his shots off or get separation like he does now. His lackadaisical playing style isn't going to do him any favors against NBA level defenders. If he is ever going to realize his potential and live up to the hype he'll have to bring it at all times. He'll really need to raise the intensity of his on ball defense, his handle and motor in general. His shot selection is a concern as well.

He doesn't have top 10 PG upside. He's a slightly better Jamal Murray...maybe.

[jrob23]

At this point it would take quite a game to move him into my top 6. I have moved him up past DSJ recently.

Could you post your big board, I'm legitimately curious

It's not finalized. I'll do that once the season starts and then it'll be a slightly moving target until Draft night as information comes in.

I also don't care about how prospects will do initially. I put more emphasis on what they'll be once they realize their potential and become their best selves. This is how I envision redrafts in 2020 going

But if I must.

My redraft Big Board:

Ball-best PG in the class
Jackson-versatile elite defender with upside
Ntilikina-elite defender, combo guard. Raw but immense upside. Maybe most in class
Bridges-Draymond Green if he was one of the best athletes in the NBA who can play 3 and 4
Leaf-Kevin Love 2.0. Ideal stretch 4 skills. Needs upper body strength that should come in 2-3 years
Tatum-Chance to match Otto Porter who I see as developing into one of the better two way SF in the league
Fox-elite defender, huge upside offensively/physically.
Isaac-will take a few years but poor man's Bosh
Fultz-PnR nightmare, scores on all three levels...IF he raises intensity. More flash than substance right now
Monk-Avery Bradley on steroids
Kurucs-Manu 2.0 with better athleticism and higher upside
DSJ-D Rose lite but better PG skills. dropping down my board
Adebayo-Dwight light. Huge upside. 50/50 he reaches it. Has tools to do it though.
Ferguson-based on 3 and D. Highlight machine in the making

My mock draft:

Ball
Fultz
Jackson
Tatum
Monk
Ntilikina
Isaac
Bridges
Leaf
DSJ
Fox
Adebayo
Kurucs
Ferguson


Edit...how about yours?

[Marcus]

At this point it would take quite a game to move him into my top 6. I have moved him up past DSJ recently.

Could you post your big board, I'm legitimately curious

It's not finalized. I'll do that once the season starts and then it'll be a slightly moving target until Draft night as information comes in.

I also don't care about how prospects will do initially. I put more emphasis on what they'll be once they realize their potential and become their best selves. This is how I envision redrafts in 2020 going

But if I must.

My redraft Big Board:

Ball-best PG in the class
Jackson-versatile elite defender with upside
Ntilikina-elite defender, combo guard. Raw but immense upside. Maybe most in class
Bridges-Draymond Green if he was one of the best athletes in the NBA who can play 3 and 4
Leaf-Kevin Love 2.0. Ideal stretch 4 skills. Needs upper body strength that should come in 2-3 years
Tatum-Chance to match Otto Porter who I see as developing into one of the better two way SF in the league
Fox-elite defender, huge upside offensively/physically.
Isaac-will take a few years but poor man's Bosh
Fultz-PnR nightmare, scores on all three levels...IF he raises intensity. More flash than substance right now
Monk-Avery Bradley on steroids
Kurucs-Manu 2.0 with better athleticism and higher upside
DSJ-D Rose lite but better PG skills. dropping down my board
Adebayo-Dwight light. Huge upside. 50/50 he reaches it. Has tools to do it though.
Ferguson-based on 3 and D. Highlight machine in the making

My mock draft:

Ball
Fultz
Jackson
Tatum
Monk
Ntilikina
Isaac
Bridges
Leaf
DSJ
Fox
Adebayo
Kurucs
Ferguson


Edit...how about yours?

You see Monk as the same level defender as Avery Bradley?

[eagereyez]

Can you cite some examples of this?

Not saying I agree with him and his post was looney toons but Lonzo is doing this right now. Of course his team isn't as bad as Washington but they aren't good and he has them looking like the best offense in the NCAA. I'd say DSJ is similar (his talent is horrible).

I see multiple NBA players on that UCLA roster, Lonzo or no Lonzo. I don't agree that DSJ is making NCST better and I'm not one to agree the talent level there is horrible but I'm not doing that argument again for the 10000x.

Wade is the only person on that list that was reasonable. He took an elite Kenpom offense with a really bad defense further than any other team with a similar profile.

This always happens in every sport. Good players on great teams become overrated. Some people actually thought Webber was a better PF than Garnett because Garnett couldn't drag the TWolves to the Finals. The same arguments have been popping up with AD. Lonzo Ball is somehow magically making TJ Leaf shoot 45% from 3 and 63% from the field. Fultz has a cupcake schedule against weak opponents even though he plays in the same conference as Ball. He gets his numbers on weak out of conference teams even though his in conference stats are nearly identical.