2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread Volume 2

[cksdayoff]

just remember that whoever the sixers draft, whether it's Ball, Fultz or DSJ, these guys won't have to do the scoring load. They'll be the 2nd or 3rd option behind Embiid and possibly Simmons and they'll be surrounded by shooting talent. These guys will be even more productive. And then hopefully they'll develop a bit more (after all they are 18-19 years old, with a whole lot of untapped potential) and take over the scoring load when the team calls for it later on down the road

Whomever we pick will be in a very good situation (DSJ would be an amazing 2nd or 3rd scoring option for us)

[Arsenal]

I don't disagree with anything you said, but I think he also has the potential to be a good starting player in the NBA.

That's the main reason I still have Ball at 4, he is a high-risk / high-reward pick IMO

Idk how to feel about his shot. Shawn Marion had a pretty funky release as well.

I can see Ball becoming a Brandon Jennings type of player in the NBA

I had Ball around 4 or 5 not that long ago; as far as what Ericb5 mentioned with his passing I agree he has great vision, I don't think he's going to get that much of a chance to showcase it though in the NBA because he does not have the handle to be a PG - he's a SG. I really hope the 6ers don't take a risk with him if we have the chance, unless he drops to somewhere like 8 - 10 or somewhere like that and that's where our pick is.

I wouldn't put him as low as 8-10 but I agree with most of what you said. Excellent vision and passing but without the PG handles to consistently break down the defense. In that regard he reminds me of Iguodala.

It's truly amazing that a guy without PG skills or handles is averaging almost 9 assists per 40 min as an 18/19 year old freshman in college.

[Arsenal]

^ ^ agree with Ball being over-rated here. As for the comparisons with Curry Ball's handle is light years behind and can only finish from one level, and even that level is suspect because of the terrible mechanics on his shot. Curry and Fultz can finish from all three levels with ridiculous ease. The more I think about Ball the less I like him. If we do trade for him he won't be playing PG and in fact I don't think he will be able to play PG anywhere in the league; he's a SG which sucks because the one area he is elite in is passing. I had him in a 2nd or 3rd tier a few weeks ago but seriously considering dropping him down further - I really don't think much of what he does will transfer to the NBA. Ball ahead of Fultz on any board is pretty absurd IMO.

I don't disagree with anything you said, but I think he also has the potential to be a good starting player in the NBA.

That's the main reason I still have Ball at 4, he is a high-risk / high-reward pick IMO

Idk how to feel about his shot. Shawn Marion had a pretty funky release as well.

I can see Ball becoming a Brandon Jennings type of player in the NBA

The allure with Ball is the potentially GOAT-level BBIQ. If you don't buy into that with him, then he's rightfully plummeting down a board.

Ball most definitely has GOAT-level BBIQ. And yet so many people would prefer that he pound the dribble and gun from midrange like a typical mediocre PG. That's why he's smarter than them lol.

[Slizeezyc]

I don't disagree with anything you said, but I think he also has the potential to be a good starting player in the NBA.

That's the main reason I still have Ball at 4, he is a high-risk / high-reward pick IMO

Idk how to feel about his shot. Shawn Marion had a pretty funky release as well.

I can see Ball becoming a Brandon Jennings type of player in the NBA

The allure with Ball is the potentially GOAT-level BBIQ. If you don't buy into that with him, then he's rightfully plummeting down a board.

Ball most definitely has GOAT-level BBIQ. And yet so many people would prefer that he pound the dribble and gun from midrange like a typical mediocre PG. That's why he's smarter than them lol.

That's not what people say except idiots, especially about mid-range. There are valid criticisms of Ball to have that involve not dumbing it down to saying "people are dumb and don't get it."

[JojoSlimbiid]

Goat-level BBIQ? What does that even mean? What a load of nonsense.

[Negrodamus]

Whether it's with us or with another team, I believe Monte Morris from Iowa State has a place in this league.

31.1 AST% to an incredible 6.6 TO% as the point guard.

[Arsenal]

Whether it's with us or with another team, I believe Monte Morris from Iowa State has a place in this league.

31.1 AST% to an incredible 6.6 TO% as the point guard.

The Bulls will take him for sure.

[Negrodamus]

Whether it's with us or with another team, I believe Monte Morris from Iowa State has a place in this league.

31.1 AST% to an incredible 6.6 TO% as the point guard.

The Bulls will take him for sure.

If he's available in the second round, I'd take him without question.

[PLO]

I had Ball around 4 or 5 not that long ago; as far as what Ericb5 mentioned with his passing I agree he has great vision, I don't think he's going to get that much of a chance to showcase it though in the NBA because he does not have the handle to be a PG - he's a SG. I really hope the 6ers don't take a risk with him if we have the chance, unless he drops to somewhere like 8 - 10 or somewhere like that and that's where our pick is.

I wouldn't put him as low as 8-10 but I agree with most of what you said. Excellent vision and passing but without the PG handles to consistently break down the defense. In that regard he reminds me of Iguodala.

It's truly amazing that a guy without PG skills or handles is averaging almost 9 assists per 40 min as an 18/19 year old freshman in college.

The question is whether that will translate to the NBA - I am very dubious that it can - he doesn't have the skills to be a PG at the top level. Yes he does look awesome at college level but he is surrounded by some very good talent at UCLA and he really only plays within his strengths, but these strengths are not something he can really use at the next level. He pretty much can't score off the dribble from mid range or under the basket; these are very important skills for any PG in the league today. His shot is treacle-slow and he won't be facing so-so athletes in the NBA. His vision and passing are awesome but I question whether the ball will be in his hands enough to justify a top 5 pick. TBH if, as I think, he is a SG there are even other players at that position I would possibly prefer over him, but having said that I think pairing him with Simmons is particularly intriguing, but not intriguing enough for me that he's a top 5 player in this loaded draft.

[AdotSmoove]

Did you guys see the other night that Lonzo Ball's dad said that Lonzo is better than Steph right now? If we wind up with Lonzo, his dad will fit in perfectly. We've had our share of idiotic and delusional parents during the Process years.

KJ McDaniels mom was my favorite process parent


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[LloydFree]

Lauri Markkenen with 0.6 blks per 40. The list of successful 6'10 + big men in the NBA, who did that in college has to be very small.

[Kolkmania]

Think this is the season I've watched the most college basketball in my life, my two cents:

The upper half of the lottery is so damn close, one week I'm drooling over Jonathan Isaac, the next week Jayson Tatum erupts against the best defensive team in college, then Josh Jackson carries his team against two top ranked teams in the nation. In the end I think that fit WILL matter this time and this feels weird saying since I'm the biggest BPA advocate there is.

Instead of ranking prospects solely in tiers, I divide them into two categories as well; all-around contributors and specialists. This freshman class is quite unique in the fact that several players are willing to take a personal "hit" to lift the team's overall level. To me that's quite unprecedented and tells a lot about their character, these players will probably not be the #1 offensive option in the NBA, but will lead to more wins in a season.
Some teams are desperate for offensive firepower, others should search for this glue-type prospect. Personally I'm not sure which player the Sixers should chase, since I don't know if Simmons will ever score at will. Having a big (Joel) as the primary option is also dangerous since they are dependent of entry-passes and more vulnerable to double teams.

All-around contributors tier 1:
Lonzo Ball
This guy continues to impress me. I had doubts about his shot, but he's shooting 43% from three, able to shoot when he's going left and(!) right, although that sample size is small. Now that he's showing flashes of a midrange and floater game he has far more options in a P&R situation. Offensively I'm worried about his fluidity attacking the basket due to poor ball handling and relative straight drives and his ability to finish around the rim.
As a playmaker he's the best option around. Extremely unselfish, able to see passes that other don't, but not too cocky for the simple assist.

Defensively I'm intrigued. Lonzo reads the offense so well, he rotates at the right time, great rebounder and the most important part is that he's super switchable. He does get blown by occasionally, but if he can compensate that with defending 2's and small 3's it's absolutely worth it.

Josh Jackson
Most complete prospect in this draft. Can score in multiple ways, although not extremely creative. Underrated playmaker, would love to see him handle the ball in the NBA. Great defender, those hard hedges late in the game are exemplary for his versatility. Able to bang down low with Motley, but decides the game with great perimeter defense against Baylor. Mentally he's an absolute maniac, super motivated and a beast at the court, love his hustle.

Two knacks. His shot is absolutely broken, I know he's shooting ~35% from three at this point, but I don't buy it all. He has an incredible hitch in his shot, his release point is low and his footwork is inconsistent and on top of that he's one of the worst free throw shooters playing the forward position I've seen.
Second is his age. It's not like he was already accustomed to the physical side of college basketball, but doesn't negate the fact that he's already 20 years old. More than a year older than Jayson Tatum and Markelle Fultz e.g.

Specialists tier 1:
Markelle Fultz
Extremely young, yet so in control. Think his 3PT% is not sustainable, but his ability shoot over opponents and hit tough shots is a legit skill. Also extremely creative in the paint which is possibly his biggest plus for me, he has hangtime in the air and I can definitely see him being very efficient attacking the basket in the NBA.
As a playmaker he's better than showcased at Washington. Surround him with better teammates like the FIBA U18 tournament in 2016 and he'll dish some beautiful dimes. He's very creative in his passing, but at times he's a bit too nonchalant, leading in TO's. But again, the will turn 19(!) late May.

Defensively he's not good. Don't think he has enough pride at that end which could be solvable at the right franchise. Let's say he ends up at the Lakers I can see him being mediocre for the rest of his life. Put him at the Celtics and I'm sure that Marcus Smart, et al. will affect him on the defensive end. In that case his enormous wingspan will contribute, but mindset is more important imo.

All-around contributors tier 2:
Jonathan Isaac
People focus too much on numbers with Isaac. He's playing within his role at Florida State and to me that's a huge plus, since I had some questions about this. Shows effort at the glass, decent range, good fluidity for his size and shows some versatility as a scorer. I think he starts as a stretching 4, but he could end up as a legit offensive option in the NBA, those turnaround jumpers, drives off the catch and shooting off the dribble is impressive. Does needs to work on his explosiveness and finishing around the rim. Combine that with his potential as a weakside defender, he's really good.

Specialists tier 2:
Jayson Tatum
Categorizing Tatum was difficult, he has the potential to be so much more than an one dimensional player. He has the size to play the 4 and 3, will compete on the boards and has elite footwork for a power forward. He just needs to learn to play within the flow of an offense. Too often the ball stops in his hands and he hesitates before he decides to drive, shoot or pass.
If he continues to improve he can creep closer to Fultz, Ball and Jackson.

Dennis Smith jr
Lazy on the defensive end, disappears at moments when NC State needs him the most and still hasn't regained the quickness at turning corners and shifting gears I hoped he would after his ACL injury. Before the season I had him #2 after Fultz, but he's probably the biggest disappointment for me this year.
Weird part is that not all the blame is on him. The roster is a mess, the coach is incapable and even sacked during the season. How much of his lack of intensity is due to this unstable environment? That's extremely hard to judge if you don't have inside information. Dennis Smith is the best P&R ball handler and the most athletic player compared to the other PG prospects, so the potential and skills are present.

All-around contributors tier 3:
OG Anunoby
Mikal Bridges
Miles Bridges
Frank Ntilikina

Specialists tier 3:
De'Aaron Fox
Malik Monk
Lauri Markkanen
Justin Patton
[b]Robert Williams[/b

Sixers Big Board: Markelle Fultz, Lonzo Ball, Josh Jackson, Jayson Tatum, Jonathan Isaac, Dennis Smith jr.

That turned out a bit longer than I expected.

[eagereyez]

I wonder if De'Aaron Fox's man bun is here to stay. If it is then that bodes well for his shooting development. Noel got rid of the flat top and is having a career year from the line. Shumpert also got rid of his flat top and is now shooting 40% from 3. I don't understand why NBA players think it's a good idea to have giant hair that interferes with their natural shooting motion. Josh Jackson should take notes. Someone needs to attack Elfrid Payton with a hair clipper.

[LloydFree]

Think this is the season I've watched the most college basketball in my life, my two cents:

The upper half of the lottery is so damn close, one week I'm drooling over Jonathan Isaac, the next week Jayson Tatum erupts against the best defensive team in college, then Josh Jackson carries his team against two top ranked teams in the nation. In the end I think that fit WILL matter this time and this feels weird saying since I'm the biggest BPA advocate there is.

Instead of ranking prospects solely in tiers, I divide them into two categories as well; all-around contributors and specialists. This freshman class is quite unique in the fact that several players are willing to take a personal "hit" to lift the team's overall level. To me that's quite unprecedented and tells a lot about their character, these players will probably not be the #1 offensive option in the NBA, but will lead to more wins in a season.
Some teams are desperate for offensive firepower, others should search for this glue-type prospect. Personally I'm not sure which player the Sixers should chase, since I don't know if Simmons will ever score at will. Having a big (Joel) as the primary option is also dangerous since they are dependent of entry-passes and more vulnerable to double teams.

All-around contributors tier 1:
Lonzo Ball
This guy continues to impress me. I had doubts about his shot, but he's shooting 43% from three, able to shoot when he's going left and(!) right, although that sample size is small. Now that he's showing flashes of a midrange and floater game he has far more options in a P&R situation. Offensively I'm worried about his fluidity attacking the basket due to poor ball handling and relative straight drives and his ability to finish around the rim.
As a playmaker he's the best option around. Extremely unselfish, able to see passes that other don't, but not too cocky for the simple assist.

Defensively I'm intrigued. Lonzo reads the offense so well, he rotates at the right time, great rebounder and the most important part is that he's super switchable. He does get blown by occasionally, but if he can compensate that with defending 2's and small 3's it's absolutely worth it.

Josh Jackson
Most complete prospect in this draft. Can score in multiple ways, although not extremely creative. Underrated playmaker, would love to see him handle the ball in the NBA. Great defender, those hard hedges late in the game are exemplary for his versatility. Able to bang down low with Motley, but decides the game with great perimeter defense against Baylor. Mentally he's an absolute maniac, super motivated and a beast at the court, love his hustle.

Two knacks. His shot is absolutely broken, I know he's shooting ~35% from three at this point, but I don't buy it all. He has an incredible hitch in his shot, his release point is low and his footwork is inconsistent and on top of that he's one of the worst free throw shooters playing the forward position I've seen.
Second is his age. It's not like he was already accustomed to the physical side of college basketball, but doesn't negate the fact that he's already 20 years old. More than a year older than Jayson Tatum and Markelle Fultz e.g.

Specialists tier 1:
Markelle Fultz
Extremely young, yet so in control. Think his 3PT% is not sustainable, but his ability shoot over opponents and hit tough shots is a legit skill. Also extremely creative in the paint which is possibly his biggest plus for me, he has hangtime in the air and I can definitely see him being very efficient attacking the basket in the NBA.
As a playmaker he's better than showcased at Washington. Surround him with better teammates like the FIBA U18 tournament in 2016 and he'll dish some beautiful dimes. He's very creative in his passing, but at times he's a bit too nonchalant, leading in TO's. But again, the will turn 19(!) late May.

Defensively he's not good. Don't think he has enough pride at that end which could be solvable at the right franchise. Let's say he ends up at the Lakers I can see him being mediocre for the rest of his life. Put him at the Celtics and I'm sure that Marcus Smart, et al. will affect him on the defensive end. In that case his enormous wingspan will contribute, but mindset is more important imo.

All-around contributors tier 2:
Jonathan Isaac
People focus too much on numbers with Isaac. He's playing within his role at Florida State and to me that's a huge plus, since I had some questions about this. Shows effort at the glass, decent range, good fluidity for his size and shows some versatility as a scorer. I think he starts as a stretching 4, but he could end up as a legit offensive option in the NBA, those turnaround jumpers, drives off the catch and shooting off the dribble is impressive. Does needs to work on his explosiveness and finishing around the rim. Combine that with his potential as a weakside defender, he's really good.

Specialists tier 2:
Jayson Tatum
Categorizing Tatum was difficult, he has the potential to be so much more than an one dimensional player. He has the size to play the 4 and 3, will compete on the boards and has elite footwork for a power forward. He just needs to learn to play within the flow of an offense. Too often the ball stops in his hands and he hesitates before he decides to drive, shoot or pass.
If he continues to improve he can creep closer to Fultz, Ball and Jackson.

Dennis Smith jr
Lazy on the defensive end, disappears at moments when NC State needs him the most and still hasn't regained the quickness at turning corners and shifting gears I hoped he would after his ACL injury. Before the season I had him #2 after Fultz, but he's probably the biggest disappointment for me this year.
Weird part is that not all the blame is on him. The roster is a mess, the coach is incapable and even sacked during the season. How much of his lack of intensity is due to this unstable environment? That's extremely hard to judge if you don't have inside information. Dennis Smith is the best P&R ball handler and the most athletic player compared to the other PG prospects, so the potential and skills are present.

All-around contributors tier 3:
OG Anunoby
Mikal Bridges
Miles Bridges
Frank Ntilikina

Specialists tier 3:
De'Aaron Fox
Malik Monk
Lauri Markkanen
Justin Patton
[b]Robert Williams[/b

Sixers Big Board: Markelle Fultz, Lonzo Ball, Josh Jackson, Jayson Tatum, Jonathan Isaac, Dennis Smith jr.

That turned out a bit longer than I expected.

Yeah, very good takes on Ball, Jackson and Smith. Smith will be able to run an NBA level pick-n-roll from day one, but his laziness on defense is a disgrace. And it's not as though he doesn't have good instincts, he just decides on many plays, he isn't going to do anything. If he can get coached out of that, he will be a good player.
I'm not convinced all of Fultz' scoring will translate to the pros, because he doesn't seem to have NBA guard quickness. I could envision him having a hard time getting where he needs to go with the ball and getting a lot of his shots blocked. But I think his passing is under-rated and he has age on his side.

I don't get how Fox and Tatum got categorized as Specialists.

And OG Anunoby, before and after his injury, went from being a super sleeper to ridiculously over-rated, in just one off-season.

[PLO]

Obviously I disagree with some of it, but that's a quality post Kolkmania

[Kolkmania]

Yeah, very good takes on Ball, Jackson and Smith. Smith will be able to run an NBA level pick-n-roll from day one, but his laziness on defense is a disgrace. And it's not as though he doesn't have good instincts, he just decides on many plays, he isn't going to do anything. If he can get coached out of that, he will be a good player.
I'm not convinced all of Fultz' scoring will translate to the pros, because he doesn't seem to have NBA guard quickness and I could envision him having a having a hard time getting where he needs to go with the ball and I can envision him getting a lot of his shots blocked. But I think his passing is under-rated and he has age on his side.

I don't get how Fox and Tatum got categorized as Specialists.

And OG Anunoby, before and after his injury, went from being a super sleeper to ridiculously over-rated, in just one off-season.

Agree with your concern about Fultz, but I do think he's more explosive than D'Angelo Russell for example. Plus he's so creative with his drives; he has the lateral quickness to sidestep, can spin, step back, etc. That will help him finish around the rim despite his (lack of) burst. Will add that his quickness is quite deceptive, lack of spacing at Washington just really hurts him, especially in those lineups where two of Timmins/Dickerson/Dime are on the court.

Already said that Tatum was hard to categorize, he absolutely has two-way potential. Doubted with Fox as well. His lack of shooting will shrink the court, which will hurt the team instead of contribute. Also think that his defense is a tat overrated. He's absolutely great at the perimeter, navigating through screens, pressing and he has quick hands. However, he's so weak that he barely deflects shots around the rim, while he is able to keep up with the opposing guard. Also, he does not have the size and weight to switch which limits his defensive value.
That's a personal thing though, I think Marcus Smart is a more valuable defender than Avery Bradley for example, however the general consensus is that Bradley is All-Defensive Team category.

[Ericb5]

I don't disagree with anything you said, but I think he also has the potential to be a good starting player in the NBA.

That's the main reason I still have Ball at 4, he is a high-risk / high-reward pick IMO

Idk how to feel about his shot. Shawn Marion had a pretty funky release as well.

I can see Ball becoming a Brandon Jennings type of player in the NBA

I had Ball around 4 or 5 not that long ago; as far as what Ericb5 mentioned with his passing I agree he has great vision, I don't think he's going to get that much of a chance to showcase it though in the NBA because he does not have the handle to be a PG - he's a SG. I really hope the 6ers don't take a risk with him if we have the chance, unless he drops to somewhere like 8 - 10 or somewhere like that and that's where our pick is.

I wouldn't put him as low as 8-10 but I agree with most of what you said. Excellent vision and passing but without the PG handles to consistently break down the defense. In that regard he reminds me of Iguodala.

He can clearly play off the ball, but I don't see the problems with his handle that you guys see. I think he has sufficient ball handling ability to play the point. To me he is a born pass first point guard, that can shoot.

He isn't going to be an elite penetrator, but he doesn't have to be that.


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[sixerswillrule]

I had Ball around 4 or 5 not that long ago; as far as what Ericb5 mentioned with his passing I agree he has great vision, I don't think he's going to get that much of a chance to showcase it though in the NBA because he does not have the handle to be a PG - he's a SG. I really hope the 6ers don't take a risk with him if we have the chance, unless he drops to somewhere like 8 - 10 or somewhere like that and that's where our pick is.

I wouldn't put him as low as 8-10 but I agree with most of what you said. Excellent vision and passing but without the PG handles to consistently break down the defense. In that regard he reminds me of Iguodala.

It's truly amazing that a guy without PG skills or handles is averaging almost 9 assists per 40 min as an 18/19 year old freshman in college.

Those words and

Ball most definitely has GOAT-level BBIQ. And yet so many people would prefer that he pound the dribble and gun from midrange like a typical mediocre PG. That's why he's smarter than them lol.

those words were never said.

[SparksFly87]

Ball's size of a wing , athleticism, elite passing and high volume yet efficients 3ptshooting definitely fits what the 76ers like complimenting Ben Simmons.

[yourewrong]

Goat-level BBIQ? What does that even mean? What a load of nonsense.

Ball is one of the savviest and brightest young college players to come along in a while, and it's reflected in his A:T, shot selection, and overall team offensive efficiency in contrast to previous years. He compares very favorably to all of the top distributors of the last several decades, several of which were basically basketball geniuses. How is that nonsense? More important, how are you going to ask for clarification on something, and then dismiss it as nonsense before you get your answer?