what do you want for bismack?

[PennytoShaq]

Then we shouldn't have **** signed him. Now we have to build around Bismack Biyombo because of his inability to do anything else except rebound and block a shot? Biyombo isn't a good player, Vucevic, Fournier, and hell even Payton are good players. Biyombo was good at one thing for one playoff series. Hennigan **** the bed with this deal. You augment elite players with guys like Bis, not 2nd-3rd tier players.

I think Vogel wanted Biyombo. He probably made the case that he is not a horse whisperer and may not be able to make Vuc a good defender, and we needed a guy who can defend the 5.

I believe Frank sees Biyombo as still a work in process, but a guy who can be a force with the right lineup. Unfortunately you don't just get the right lineup over night, but adding Ross, moving Gordon back to PF is a step in the right direction.

Ok.. But the issue is this, and what makes these conversations so damn frustrating, because we keep talking in circles.

I don't know if as a whole people are just in denial, hate Nik THAT much, or genuinely don't know how to look up this seasons statistics, but Nik actually became a much better defender and is doing so almost equal to that of Bismack.

Secondly, Biyombo ISNT defending 5's well....AT ALL.... and has had that issue for a number of years now. Other fan bases used the following words to describe him: HE HAS TROUBLE GUARDING STARTING CENTERS ESPECIALLY WITH SIZE, despite that people around here are still shocked. He's not outplaying Nik in any capacity right now.

I agree that Vogel had a say in signing Biyombo, but what I have issues with is, if he did indeed saw him as a work in progress....... A work in progress? In mother flucking year 6? He's not a work in progress nor does he have potential. Outside of may be some incremental improvements he's reached his ceiling. Bismack Biyombo isn't going to get any better, and he doesn't fit this team as currently constructed, he fits on a team with elite talent, not Terrance Ross, Fournier, or Elfrid Payton on the wings. So my point is if those were their reasons then they were badly mistaken on both accounts and it makes the over pay look even worse.

I've said this many times, but I do not believe that the team is near completion. I think getting Ibaka was a gamble at going big with serious shot blocking at the 4 position and it didn't work. I also think the Magic wanted the flexibility to trade Vuc since he is on a really good deal.

Additionally since he is on a really good deal it allowed us to pay a little more for another C and have a really good rotation of bigs without killing our cap. For perspective, the rotation costs $27mm a year. Just paying Drummond on DET costs them around $22mm or more, not including their bench.

So the MAagic have flexibility for a trade and also have a nice 1-2 punch at C if they keep both guys.

[Xatticus]

He is a not-as-cool Bo Outlaw and we gave him $68mil for it.

Bo was a much better player. He never scored much, but he was a far more useful player at the offensive end.

No comparison...Bo (who is also the nicest guy in the world) was a toothpick, Biz sets teeth-rattling picks. That is Biz's offensive skill.

Bo's legacy is that he is the 150 lb power forward that the Magic kept in favor of a young Ben Wallace...out of "loyalty". Turned the Grant Hill "theft" into the Ben Wallace theft.

That might be how your remember Bo Outlaw, but that isn't his legacy. Outlaw finished his career with a BPM of 3.4, which isn't dramatically different from Wallace's 3.9 career BPM. Wallace is remembered favorably because he was the defensive anchor of some really deep and talented Pistons teams, but Outlaw was a very good defender as well. Biyombo is decidedly inferior to both (-2.0 career BPM). He is a train wreck on offense and overrated defensively.

[shadrock]

You guys are honestly so frustrating sometimes Biz is a great piece for this team. Dont give up on him.

"great piece" and Biyombo cant go in the same sentence.

Lets see... he can defend the post. Can switch onto pretty much anyone on the perimeter, including PGs. He is a great screener on offense. He brings husle. What exactly is the problem? Our team is not going anywhere this year so he looks bad lately, but dont let that fool you into thinking he has no talent. We would be stupid to let him go.

[ralphie9898]

You guys remember when all we needed was an interior defender and everything was going to be all right? Such innocent times those were.

I don't remember it being just interior D. Yes that was something we needed but I don't think anyone wanted to sacrifice offense as well but that is what we got and to some extent not the D we wanted.

Yeah.. you are misremembering. There was a segment of this community that basically made Nik the scapegoat for everything and claimed that having an interior defender would cure all woes. And yes they were more than willing to give up Nik's offense to gain interior defense. Not everybody, but a very vocal minority for sure.

yeah and I very well might have been put into that category and still kind of could be as I do view Vucs bad D as hurtful to our team Defense as well as ultimately our success in wins and losses and no I don't think his offensive and rebounding ability move the needle to much in his favor. Vus is a good player but I don't value him as some of the people on here. I value defense a little more than offense from a center but I wasn't trying to ignore that we need that center to also be at least somewhat contributable on offense. And while Center play was a need I don't think anyone in their right mind thought that that was the only hole that needed filling. I remember just as much of a calling for better shooters as well that probably just didn't get included in an argument that focused on attacking and defending Vuc back and forth. I can do both but yeah and I think most of those who people who you are talking about could do as well. And I do want a better center who can play D and rebound and be at least better offensively then Biyombo. Yeah that is tough to get so that exists right along with my argument. Also I think you can still be a playoff team with Vuc as your starting center but then you have to seriously surround him with talent which isn't easy to do either. I go back to having Dwight and how he helped make up for the lackluster D around him but still managed to keep us as one of the better team defenses. And Biyombo hasn't been that upgrade I was seeking though I would say that I never viewed him as a sure thing that could make us better as I don't usually deal in certainties especially when talking about the future contributions of any player whether I think they may be good or bad.

[ralphie9898]

You guys are honestly so frustrating sometimes Biz is a great piece for this team. Dont give up on him.

"great piece" and Biyombo cant go in the same sentence.

Lets see... he can defend the post. Can switch onto pretty much anyone on the perimeter, including PGs. He is a great screener on offense. He brings husle. What exactly is the problem? Our team is not going anywhere this year so he looks bad lately, but dont let that fool you into thinking he has no talent. We would be stupid to let him go.

yeah he does have talent and I don't think anyone is disputing that. But how much is up for debate. And I don't think anyone is talking about letting him go but rather the contract. If we traded him for a future first and some cap relief(i.e. a sooner expiring deal, that hopefully would be really soon) isn't neccesarily stupid. It is simply trying a new approach as our most significant off-season changes since Dwight leaving and including Biyomobo) have actually seen us lose more than the previous year. So who is to blame and part has to fall on Biyombo as he hasn't even consistently been the defensive dynamo that we thought we were getting. I am not blaming it all on Biyombo or saying that he can't still be a contributable on a good team(which he has shown he can be). But rather simply getting rid of his contract for cap space and an asset or two isn't simply just trying a new approach which his deal doesn't help us do.

[cedric76]

Lol from biz should start to biz is trash in few months. This board is bipolar

Sent from my SM-A310F using RealGM mobile app

[Blue_and_Whte]

Lol from biz should start to biz is trash in few months. This board is bipolar

Sent from my SM-A310F using RealGM mobile app

Biz is playing like trash literally. It's not something people are randomly making up.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[Blue_and_Whte]

I think Vogel wanted Biyombo. He probably made the case that he is not a horse whisperer and may not be able to make Vuc a good defender, and we needed a guy who can defend the 5.

I believe Frank sees Biyombo as still a work in process, but a guy who can be a force with the right lineup. Unfortunately you don't just get the right lineup over night, but adding Ross, moving Gordon back to PF is a step in the right direction.

Ok.. But the issue is this, and what makes these conversations so damn frustrating, because we keep talking in circles.

I don't know if as a whole people are just in denial, hate Nik THAT much, or genuinely don't know how to look up this seasons statistics, but Nik actually became a much better defender and is doing so almost equal to that of Bismack.

Secondly, Biyombo ISNT defending 5's well....AT ALL.... and has had that issue for a number of years now. Other fan bases used the following words to describe him: HE HAS TROUBLE GUARDING STARTING CENTERS ESPECIALLY WITH SIZE, despite that people around here are still shocked. He's not outplaying Nik in any capacity right now.

I agree that Vogel had a say in signing Biyombo, but what I have issues with is, if he did indeed saw him as a work in progress....... A work in progress? In mother flucking year 6? He's not a work in progress nor does he have potential. Outside of may be some incremental improvements he's reached his ceiling. Bismack Biyombo isn't going to get any better, and he doesn't fit this team as currently constructed, he fits on a team with elite talent, not Terrance Ross, Fournier, or Elfrid Payton on the wings. So my point is if those were their reasons then they were badly mistaken on both accounts and it makes the over pay look even worse.

I've said this many times, but I do not believe that the team is near completion. I think getting Ibaka was a gamble at going big with serious shot blocking at the 4 position and it didn't work. I also think the Magic wanted the flexibility to trade Vuc since he is on a really good deal.

Additionally since he is on a really good deal it allowed us to pay a little more for another C and have a really good rotation of bigs without killing our cap. For perspective, the rotation costs $27mm a year. Just paying Drummond on DET costs them around $22mm or more, not including their bench.

So the MAagic have flexibility for a trade and also have a nice 1-2 punch at C if they keep both guys.

I agree. I just think a better route would've been to keep Dedmon at half the cost, like I said from the very beginning.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1404991

I highly doubt those are Hennigan's targets in free agency next year. Both are horrible. Meyers is not a rim protector. He's a stretch 5 who might be a slight upgrade over Frye and Henson is a third string center. Just keep Dedmon. Why do people keep sleeping on Dedmon?

There were a couple more examples asking what the differences were between Dedmon and Biyombo but I don't have to search for all of them.

[cedric76]

Lol from biz should start to biz is trash in few months. This board is bipolar

Sent from my SM-A310F using RealGM mobile app

Biz is playing like trash literally. It's not something people are randomly making up.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

his game has not changed, so this board is bipolar

[Blue_and_Whte]

Lol from biz should start to biz is trash in few months. This board is bipolar

Sent from my SM-A310F using RealGM mobile app

Biz is playing like trash literally. It's not something people are randomly making up.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

his game has not changed, so this board is bipolar

huh? Biz was signed with expectation that he play with the same effectiveness he did in the Playoffs last season and he hasn't even come close to replicating that impact. Nobody said anything about his game changing. What the hell are you talking about?