Game 59: Magic (21-37) vs Blazers (23-33) 2/23 7PM ET TERRENCE ROSS DAY

[Skybox]

Nurkic is a straight up hockey goon...he really got under Vuc's skin, but I liked Vuc's fight. I was very surprised to see Vuc's box score. He seemed really (unusually) inefficient-he's the one guy you expect to make each shot. He was no robot though, pissed off and continuing to fight.

Vuc has been pretty bad on offense all year and hasn't been efficient really at all.

Defensively he's been fine to his credit, but offensively it's kind of a joke how much he continues to get the ball almost every play.

Probably true...I may still have the old Vuc in mind as far as offensive expectations. This year he's been much more frustrated (for good reason) on and off the court. The challenges may bring out more in him long term. He had a clean face to face block too! Not a sneaky Bo Outlaw weak side help block - like a real "don't bring that in here" block.

[Knightro]

I never like to lose, but last night was about as good as you could have hoped for moving forward for the rest of this season.

-The tank rolls on. Magic now with a 3 game cushion in the loss column for 4th-worst record. Fingers crossed for a couple of unexpected Suns and/or Lakers victories.
-Gordon played PF and had his 2nd best rebounding game of the season.
-Mario played the most competent 25 minutes of his career.
-The offense generally ran through the team's three best offensive players; Vucevic, Ross and Fournier. None of them shot the ball all that well, but the looks that were generated were mostly very good IMO.

You saw a little bit of what things *could* become last night even with a really bad shooting performance. Get some lotto luck and then all of a sudden you upgrade Payton's spot in the starting lineup with Fultz/Ball/Smith. You upgrade Augustin's spot as backup PG with Payton. You upgrade Green's spot as backup SF/PF via free agency or a trade using the Green/Meeks/Watson expiring money/cap flexibility.

Or if you want to revisit the Reggie Jackson stuff, you could swing some deal there near the draft, have Reggie as your PG and then pick a Josh Jackson or Jonathan Isaac near the top of the draft instead.

Rookie PG/Fournier/Ross/Gordon/Vucevic
Payton/Hezonja/FA signing/Biyombo

or

Jackson/Fournier/Ross/Gordon/Vucevic
Payton/Rookie Wing/FA signing/Biyombo

I'm surprisingly more optimistic about things right now than I was 2-3 weeks ago.

[JAY DASH]

Nurkic is a straight up hockey goon...he really got under Vuc's skin, but I liked Vuc's fight. I was very surprised to see Vuc's box score. He seemed really (unusually) inefficient-he's the one guy you expect to make each shot. He was no robot though, pissed off and continuing to fight.

Vuc has been pretty bad on offense all year and hasn't been efficient really at all.

Defensively he's been fine to his credit, but offensively it's kind of a joke how much he continues to get the ball almost every play.

I reckon going 25/9 is a complete joke considering nobody else on the team could score.

He's been on the team for awhile so he isn't held to the same standards as some of the newer guys. 8/20 is atrocious when you're not new.

[BadMofoPimp]

Vuc has been pretty bad on offense all year and hasn't been efficient really at all.

Defensively he's been fine to his credit, but offensively it's kind of a joke how much he continues to get the ball almost every play.

I reckon going 25/9 is a complete joke considering nobody else on the team could score.

He's been on the team for awhile so he isn't held to the same standards as some of the newer guys. 8/20 is atrocious when you're not new.

How did the rest of the team that took over 6 shots do?

I saw Westbrook go 4-20 the other night, what is that?

Basketball is a team sport, not individuals looking at their statistics. If there are not solid teammates around you, then that hurts your stats. Magic have had this problem for a while.

[OrlandoDream]

I never like to lose, but last night was about as good as you could have hoped for moving forward for the rest of this season.

-The tank rolls on. Magic now with a 3 game cushion in the loss column for 4th-worst record. Fingers crossed for a couple of unexpected Suns and/or Lakers victories.
-Gordon played PF and had his 2nd best rebounding game of the season.
-Mario played the most competent 25 minutes of his career.
-The offense generally ran through the team's three best offensive players; Vucevic, Ross and Fournier. None of them shot the ball all that well, but the looks that were generated were mostly very good IMO.

You saw a little bit of what things *could* become last night even with a really bad shooting performance. Get some lotto luck and then all of a sudden you upgrade Payton's spot in the starting lineup with Fultz/Ball/Smith. You upgrade Augustin's spot as backup PG with Payton. You upgrade Green's spot as backup SF/PF via free agency or a trade using the Green/Meeks/Watson expiring money/cap flexibility.

Or if you want to revisit the Reggie Jackson stuff, you could swing some deal there near the draft, have Reggie as your PG and then pick a Josh Jackson or Jonathan Isaac near the top of the draft instead.

Rookie PG/Fournier/Ross/Gordon/Vucevic
Payton/Hezonja/FA signing/Biyombo

or

Jackson/Fournier/Ross/Gordon/Vucevic
Payton/Rookie Wing/FA signing/Biyombo

I'm surprisingly more optimistic about things right now than I was 2-3 weeks ago.

Only part I dont agree with is Fournier at that 3. He is not a SF. We tried that last year and he got smoked by everyone. Fournier role with us if we want to be successful is as our 6th man. He loves to chuck that rock so make that his strength off the bench. Also the Fournier and Vuc offensive duo is so overrated. They are simply just not efficient enough. Terrance Ross missed shots yesterday but his shots were prob more in the rhythm of the offense then Fournier holding the ball for 10 sec and end up with a midrange fadeaway. If all he wants to do is score, then bring him off the bench as our Lou Williams/Crawford kind of guy and start player looking to move the ball.

[Skybox]

You mention ball movement...that was notably non-existent. If they can't or won't swing it around, then they should't play half court (or should be replaced). Would seem they should push and run and crash and attack the rim or kick out at every opportunity given their personnel...This is also the dilemma, since Vuc is the most skilled reliable offensive player and he happens to be built for the half court while the rest are not. Biz is a fraction of the player Vuc is, but well-executed systems are the only way to compensate without stars.Would be fun to watch.

Basically, whoever gets the defensive board (except Biz who looks deep for EP or whoever's out) rips and runs. Unless it's a dunk, Gordon never takes the first shot, he just attacks the rim for putbacks. Biz comes crashing in just behind the play attempting to rip down a rebound, or just as good, tip it out to a teammate for a quick shot. Rodman (and Bird) used to often tip rebounds to himself when he didn't have superior position....If anybody looks winded, get out (like hockey)...total Mayhem

[JAY DASH]

I reckon going 25/9 is a complete joke considering nobody else on the team could score.

He's been on the team for awhile so he isn't held to the same standards as some of the newer guys. 8/20 is atrocious when you're not new.

How did the rest of the team that took over 6 shots do?

I saw Westbrook go 4-20 the other night, what is that?

Basketball is a team sport, not individuals looking at their statistics. If there are not solid teammates around you, then that hurts your stats. Magic have had this problem for a while.

When Russ goes 4/20 I say he had a piss poor shooting night. It's ok to say that and still like a player. Doesn't mean he'll go 4/20 every night. Vuc was the least of our problems offensively last night. It was a fun game. I really didn't have any real complaints at all. (By the way...green font = sarcasm bud).

[JAY DASH]

I never like to lose, but last night was about as good as you could have hoped for moving forward for the rest of this season.

-The tank rolls on. Magic now with a 3 game cushion in the loss column for 4th-worst record. Fingers crossed for a couple of unexpected Suns and/or Lakers victories.
-Gordon played PF and had his 2nd best rebounding game of the season.
-Mario played the most competent 25 minutes of his career.
-The offense generally ran through the team's three best offensive players; Vucevic, Ross and Fournier. None of them shot the ball all that well, but the looks that were generated were mostly very good IMO.

You saw a little bit of what things *could* become last night even with a really bad shooting performance. Get some lotto luck and then all of a sudden you upgrade Payton's spot in the starting lineup with Fultz/Ball/Smith. You upgrade Augustin's spot as backup PG with Payton. You upgrade Green's spot as backup SF/PF via free agency or a trade using the Green/Meeks/Watson expiring money/cap flexibility.

Or if you want to revisit the Reggie Jackson stuff, you could swing some deal there near the draft, have Reggie as your PG and then pick a Josh Jackson or Jonathan Isaac near the top of the draft instead.

Rookie PG/Fournier/Ross/Gordon/Vucevic
Payton/Hezonja/FA signing/Biyombo

or

Jackson/Fournier/Ross/Gordon/Vucevic
Payton/Rookie Wing/FA signing/Biyombo

I'm surprisingly more optimistic about things right now than I was 2-3 weeks ago.

Only part I dont agree with is Fournier at that 3. He is not a SF. We tried that last year and he got smoked by everyone. Fournier role with us if we want to be successful is as our 6th man. He loves to chuck that rock so make that his strength off the bench. Also the Fournier and Vuc offensive duo is so overrated. They are simply just not efficient enough. Terrance Ross missed shots yesterday but his shots were prob more in the rhythm of the offense then Fournier holding the ball for 10 sec and end up with a midrange fadeaway. If all he wants to do is score, then bring him off the bench as our Lou Williams/Crawford kind of guy and start player looking to move the ball.

I'm not here to be a "Fournier Defender", but the kid did shoot 46% from the floor and 40% from the arc last season. You aren't going to get that kind of efficiency from many SG's. That's Avery Bradley territory. Definitely forces more bad shots a game this season (one less ball handler on the court up until last night) and that's bringing the shooting numbers down.

The other critiques about him are fair. Tunnel Vision. Average to below average defender. I don't have any worries about his offensive efficiency when the roster is constructed the way it's supposed to be (3 perimeter real ball handlers, not 2 + AG and additional bigs).

I'm glad we get 25 games to see if Ross is really a starter. I'm not sold from what I've seen from him his entire career, but I'm always open to the best man winning the job. He certainly is the superior athlete of the two but we knew that. What we all can agree on is they probably can't play together for long stretches against teams with real SF's. I would be fine with either one playing a Lou Will role next season though.

[npiper17]

Fournier is what he is which is a good third to fourth option on a contending team. We traded away other third to fourth options for a contending team (Oladipo, Harris) but we struggle because we have guys who are playing roles they shouldn't be.

Again, it all comes down to the draft. May 16th is the next big date on the Magic calendar. If they can go into the lottery with the fourth worst record then hopefully the worst that will happen is they stay at 4.

[trebone]

I think its safe to say Ross is a superior athlete compared to Oladipo and a better shooter, I think with some draft luck and a few tweaks to the roster we can be a playoff team next season. I like the idea of Fournier as our 6th mas as well.

[Furinkazan]

I think its safe to say Ross is a superior athlete compared to Oladipo and a better shooter, I think with some draft luck and a few tweaks to the roster we can be a playoff team next season. I like the idea of Fournier as our 6th mas as well.

superior athlete and a better shooter 4/17

[j-ragg]

Vuc has been pretty bad on offense all year and hasn't been efficient really at all.

Defensively he's been fine to his credit, but offensively it's kind of a joke how much he continues to get the ball almost every play.

I reckon going 25/9 is a complete joke considering nobody else on the team could score.

He's been on the team for awhile so he isn't held to the same standards as some of the newer guys. 8/20 is atrocious when you're not new.

I absolutely agree that small sample sizes are silly.

That's why I said he has been pretty bad on offense all year. Wasn't very efficient the year before either. Has nothing to do with his tenure.

[j-ragg]

Nurkic is a straight up hockey goon...he really got under Vuc's skin, but I liked Vuc's fight. I was very surprised to see Vuc's box score. He seemed really (unusually) inefficient-he's the one guy you expect to make each shot. He was no robot though, pissed off and continuing to fight.

Vuc has been pretty bad on offense all year and hasn't been efficient really at all.

Defensively he's been fine to his credit, but offensively it's kind of a joke how much he continues to get the ball almost every play.

I reckon going 25/9 is a complete joke considering nobody else on the team could score.

What part made my post seem like it was about last night? The part where I said he has been pretty bad on offense all year? He averages 14 points on 13 shots. Not good.

[JAY DASH]

I reckon going 25/9 is a complete joke considering nobody else on the team could score.

He's been on the team for awhile so he isn't held to the same standards as some of the newer guys. 8/20 is atrocious when you're not new.

I absolutely agree that small sample sizes are silly.

That's why I said he has been pretty bad on offense all year. Wasn't very efficient the year before either. Has nothing to do with his tenure.

Who Vuc? He's a career 50% shooter. For a guy that does most of his work from the midrange I'd say that's pretty good. Definitely down this season but I didn't know we were seriously questioning his efficiency.

[j-ragg]

He's been on the team for awhile so he isn't held to the same standards as some of the newer guys. 8/20 is atrocious when you're not new.

I absolutely agree that small sample sizes are silly.

That's why I said he has been pretty bad on offense all year. Wasn't very efficient the year before either. Has nothing to do with his tenure.

Who Vuc? He's a career 50% shooter. For a guy that does most of his work from the midrange I'd say that's pretty good. Definitely down this season but I didn't know we were seriously questioning his efficiency.

If you think his "efficiency" doesn't need to be questioned then there's no point in talking about it lol.

[SOUL]

[
Who Vuc? He's a career 50% shooter. For a guy that does most of his work from the midrange I'd say that's pretty good. Definitely down this season but I didn't know we were seriously questioning his efficiency.

50% is good if he's getting to the line more and hits more threes than he usually does. This year he's 10th on the team in points per shot. Behind basically everybody in the regular rotation besides Mario. There's a reason why the midrange shot is called one of the most inefficient shots in basketball unless you're Jordan level or mix your game with free throws like DeRozan.

[JAY DASH]

[
Who Vuc? He's a career 50% shooter. For a guy that does most of his work from the midrange I'd say that's pretty good. Definitely down this season but I didn't know we were seriously questioning his efficiency.

50% is good if he's getting to the line more and hits more threes than he usually does. This year he's 10th on the team in points per shot. Behind basically everybody in the regular rotation besides Mario. There's a reason why the midrange shot is called one of the most inefficient shots in basketball unless you're Jordan level or mix your game with free throws like DeRozan.

I get the advanced stats, but at the end of the day that's just who he is. I'd love it if he was more physical in the post, but if you're knocking down 50% of your shots, mostly from midrange, I'm not tripping at all. This year his numbers have dropped without a doubt. If you expected more from him in 2014-2016 you just weren't being realistic. So again if we are saying he wasn't efficient the past two years because he doesn't shoot 3's or get to the foul line, we're just having two different conversations. My gripe with Vuc has always been the other side of the ball.

[SOUL]

I don't think his offense has been poor throughout the years, I just think efficient isn't the right word to use. If you're working at a job and your coworker is doing the same thing as you but is finishing it 2 hours before you, he's being more efficient even though you're both doing the same thing. So what Vuc provides in theory is nice, but it's the reason why him or a Kanter or whoever are never going to be viable first or second options on a great team. We just have extremely poor offensive players so he has to play that role here.

I'm not arguing he's a bad offensive player, there's just a reason why even a good shooting year from him isn't going to provide the most value on offense.

[Bensational]

It was good to see Vuc get to the line a lot more last night, so hopefully he can do that more often. But I won't get my hopes up, because he has games like this every so often but then goes back to midrange shots.

Hopefully the difference now is that Ross and Fournier both seem to have found a working drive and handoff game with him which puts him closer to the rim and more likely to draw contact.

The biggest problem is that we've seen this show before. We've seen what Vuc lead teams do, and it's not winning, and it's not laying a foundation you can build on for the future.

But whatevs. Payton and AG have had chances to establish themselves as the go to guy on offense this year and neither has made a more compelling case. So if Vuc, Fournier and Ross can get near 20fgas a piece and average near 20ppg to close out the season I'll be happy. At the very least it ups their value as assets moving forwards. At most, who knows, maybe they actually manage find something that works within that?

[MagicStarwipe]

It was good to see Vuc get to the line a lot more last night, so hopefully he can do that more often. But I won't get my hopes up, because he has games like this every so often but then goes back to midrange shots.

Hopefully the difference now is that Ross and Fournier both seem to have found a working drive and handoff game with him which puts him closer to the rim and more likely to draw contact.

The biggest problem is that we've seen this show before. We've seen what Vuc lead teams do, and it's not winning, and it's not laying a foundation you can build on for the future.

But whatevs. Payton and AG have had chances to establish themselves as the go to guy on offense this year and neither has made a more compelling case. So if Vuc, Fournier and Ross can get near 20fgas a piece and average near 20ppg to close out the season I'll be happy. At the very least it ups their value as assets moving forwards. At most, who knows, maybe they actually manage find something that works within that?

You keep saying this but the ball was taken out of Paytons hands and his minutes were cut as soon as Fournier came back. He was playing the best ball of his career before then and the team looked much better. He has every right to be disgruntled the way Vogel has treated him. Benching him seemingly for no reason for a guy who has been the worst player on the team the past 2 seasons.

People want to get on Payton for not being "engaged". Do you not realise the gameplan is to come down and run plays for Fournier and Vucevic? He's simply doing what the coach wants.