Anyone else not onboard with the direction of this team? #Treadmill

[mieshpal]

If we can move forward with a core of Lowry Ibaka and Dd I am fine with that, especially if we can add another solid SF and a defensive center....Jimmy Butler would look great with those guys

Sent from my D6603 using RealGM mobile app

[mieshpal]

Also I am happy that we brought in players who are tough and won't back down from Lebron if we do meet them in the playoffs

Sent from my D6603 using RealGM mobile app

[Wasp]

People fundamentally misunderstand what a treadmill team really is. A treadmill team is a team that finishes from 5-10 in their conference, serving as 1st round fodder or as late lottery drafters. The Raptors, as currently constructed, are not that. Just because you're one tier below the truly elite teams does not mean you're a treadmill team. A team who is expected to make the Conference Finals is not a treadmill team.

Are the Spurs a treadmill team? Are the Rockets? The answer is no. The Raptors are in that tier of Spurs-Rockets-Celtics-Raptors-Wizards-Clippers — teams who are not expected to make the finals due to a dominant team in their Conference, but that have their sights set on the Conference Finals and have a chance, albeit small, of making it to the big dance. Simply giving up because the Cavs have LeBron is the ultimate loser mentality. What if he finally runs out of gas after 7 straight NBA Finals and leading the league in minutes? What if Love is still hobbled when he returns and can't get into form in time? What if the Warriors lose one of Curry/Durant/Draymond to injury and are suddenly vulnerable? You never know what's going to happen, and this mentality of waiting out GSW and LeBron is foolish because by the time they are done, you may have to contend with the Embiid's/Giannis's/Jokic's of the world who may reach a higher ceiling than everyone thinks.

[agentzero2010]

How did you come up with 75 million per year between Lowry and demar? We are set to have 7 prospects next season: van fleet, Bruno, Bebe, wright, Jakob, siakam and the first round pick (probably a wing). Is that not enough? I really don't understand some of the fans here. You want to win, but you don't want to give up assets or pay guys. But when the team loses, you whine and bitch about why management is not doing enough. Not everyone can be the Celtics and have a ton of high picks and cheap contracts, but I'm sure if Masai had a ton of picks, assets and expiring contracts and gave up on the chance of acquiring a superstar in its prime, you would all be roasting him too. This fan base is just weird.

[lolwut]

Until there is a hard cap in the NBA, the Raptors have exactly zero chance at a championship along with the majority of other teams in the league. Short of a GSW string of draft picks, it will never happen. Either watch the games because you enjoy them or you may as well pick another sport.

Exactly. There is only one winner each year. If you say the games are not worth watching because you don't think we have a chance of being that winner, then don't watch. Stop following the team. You're just setting yourself up for disappointment anyway.

For the rest of us, it's good entertainment. I've been following this team for nearly 20 years. Most of those seasons were awful. We had to listen to Chuck hype up the likes of Mamadou N'Diaye and Michael Curry. Did all the treadmillers follow the Raptors during those eras? If so....why? Why watch a hopeless bottomfeeder team at all?

There are 82 guaranteed games in a season. I just try to enjoy them for what they are. Anything that happens in the playoffs is a bonus. Having a shot at the finals is a huge bonus. Knowing that we'd probably lose to CLE or GSW in the finals is not a deterrent to following the team.

[Chuck Everett]

Cleveland is ripe for the plucking to be honest. They look like a tired team that's feeling itself a lot. Washington or Boston will be no picnic, but I applaud Toronto for at least giving themselves a puncher's chance. I mean, my only complaint with the long-term tanking is that clearly the people who suggest it, haven't frequented the message boards of the teams who have been out of the playoffs for years.

If you have a moment, visit the boards of: Minnesota, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando and Charlotte. These organizations would kill to have a team as good as Toronto has right now. With the exception of Charlotte, all of these teams made conference finals since the turn of the century and know that its hard to get back there.

Minnesota is about to go 13 years without players, Sacramento - 11, Phoenix - 7, Orlando - 5. I mean look at the Knicks fans. Best market in the league, have seemingly been rebuilding forever.

[notagenius]

lol @ calling this team a treadmill

treadmill to me is being in that 7-11 range with no improvements for the forseeable future, having no youth on the roster and having players that no team wants to trade for.

[sharmaraps]

Norm is the KEY to this team. I know some people hate it that fans are so high on this guy but I repeat he is the KEY to this team. If he can produce in the minutes given that would put us with Cleveland. The dude can put up 15+ a night and play solid D.

[Badonkadonk]

This binary definition of success vs. failure that I keep seeing on RGM is idiotic.

As long as the team exhibits good management and takes advantage of its opportunities, whether it's in rebuild mode or making a deep run into the playoffs, I'm fine.

I'm not fine with this "if you're not able to beat the Cavs/Warriors" you're on the treadmill BS.

Thread is trash.

[RaptorsLife]

29 losers and 1 winner at the end of the day

[YogurtProducer]

This again? **** sakes

Go look at the 2013-14 Golden State Warriors. Not many people would've picked them to be the next champion let alone the most dominant team over the next 3+ years. Suddenly Draymond becomes a star and they are champs.

I'm not saying that's gonn happen to us but we need to at least put ourselves in the situation to let something like it happen.

[Zeno]

Does the OP tank for better picks in his life too.

[StopitLeo]

With few exceptions, the only way you become a perennial finals contender is by drafting an elite or generational talent. This is just the way it is. Look historically at the best teams and they always have one of the top 3-5 players in the league.

If you're not at that level then you are:

1) Tanking and hoping to get a high lottery pick and select someone who becomes they elite player.

2) Treadmilling as a fringe playoff team (7-10 seed) trying to get better by lucky drafting, internal development, trade, and free agency. You are stockpiling tradable assets hoping to be able to acquire a superstar if the opportunity presents itself (like then Cousins trade). The team is too good to tank but not good enough to get to that 5-6 seed consistently.

3) Treadmilling as a perennial playoff team (2-4 seed) that isn't a perennial finals contender (like the Cavs and GSW). Your hope of a championship is based on your team performing in a way where the sum is greater than the parts (like those Piston teams in the 2000s) and maybe some luck like injuries on a better team. Your team is much too good to tank so all you can do is stock assets (picks and prospects) and hope for an opportunity to present itself (like the OKC Harden situation) where you can make a big improvement via trade. In the draft you hope for a rotation player and in trades and free agency you look for incremental improvements or turnover players to maintain your level of competitiveness.

We are in situation 3 and there is nothing wrong with that. We just need to wait (and it could be a long time) and get lucky for the right player to come along. For example, if Wiggins becomes amazing and signs here as a free agent.

[SideTopSide]

Tanking only works if the majority aren't doing it. Your mentality just means everyone should tank, which would just cause the worst playoff basketball we've ever seen. If every "non contender" tanks, it just means a bunch of tanking teams make the playoffs by default. How many opportunities would people miss to be really good at something (maybe the top eventually) if they just quit because they weren't automatically the best?

[Red_White_Black]

1995-1998: We sucked.
1999-2002: We sucked less. Actually, we were good in 2001. Had VC made that bucket, we probably would've made the finals. So 1 quality year of Raptors basketball total.
2003-2005: Sucked.
2006-2008: Pretty much sucked. Couldn't win a round.
2009-2012: Sucked.
2013-Present: Hey, look - we're good. We actually have a shot of making the finals. This is incredible.

I can understand fretting about the future if you're somewhat of a new fan. But if you're like me and have been a fan since day 1, shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Amen! This continuity, players wanting to stay, and now 4 years straight of making the playoffs is a treadmill I can run a marathon on.

[CoachJReturns]

Cleveland is ripe for the plucking to be honest. They look like a tired team that's feeling itself a lot. Washington or Boston will be no picnic, but I applaud Toronto for at least giving themselves a puncher's chance. I mean, my only complaint with the long-term tanking is that clearly the people who suggest it, haven't frequented the message boards of the teams who have been out of the playoffs for years.

If you have a moment, visit the boards of: Minnesota, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando and Charlotte. These organizations would kill to have a team as good as Toronto has right now. With the exception of Charlotte, all of these teams made conference finals since the turn of the century and know that its hard to get back there.

Minnesota is about to go 13 years without players, Sacramento - 11, Phoenix - 7, Orlando - 5. I mean look at the Knicks fans. Best market in the league, have seemingly been rebuilding forever.

You definitely have to be ready for some hard times. For some teams the hard times last much longer than anticipated, like Minnesota as you mentioned. I was on board with tanking next year if the playoff run failed to impress and Lowry was poised to leave. DeMar could fetch a top 5 pick which is actually a pretty good way to start before the losing begins, in addition to having Norm and Poeltl already. Masai did a good job of getting young players who can at least be rotation players when this current Raptor era declines.
Of course, after the deadline moves, this team just looks too solid to consider anything drastic barring a total playoff meltdown, which seems unlikely right now. The east just isn't that strong aside from LeBron.
Tanking is fine, especially if you can have a talented prospect or two on hand before it even begins to keep fans entertained through the worst of it, but it's just not time for that now. But as long as Masai keeps all our 1st round picks, there is always the option to make a change. Flexibility is a hell of a thing.

[sbsat]

1995-1998: We sucked.
1999-2002: We sucked less. Actually, we were good in 2001. Had VC made that bucket, we probably would've made the finals. So 1 quality year of Raptors basketball total.
2003-2005: Sucked.
2006-2008: Pretty much sucked. Couldn't win a round.
2009-2012: Sucked.
2013-Present: Hey, look - we're good. We actually have a shot of making the finals. This is incredible.

I can understand fretting about the future if you're somewhat of a new fan. But if you're like me and have been a fan since day 1, shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Amen! This continuity, players wanting to stay, and now 4 years straight of making the playoffs is a treadmill I can run a marathon on.

Day 1 fans know whats up. I cannot believe people are labeling the raptors "treadmill".. my god. We have found a way to compete and built for the future simultaneously, we have so many young assets as well as established all-stars in their prime.

Do you want to blow it up? If you are bothered by the raptors being a "treadmill" team, how the f are you going to handle waiting 4-7 years (see Minny, or philly) for the OPPORTUNITY to sniff the ECF? Jeez man!

[Johnny Bball]

Yeah thanks captain obvious. Please inform yourself on how strictly the current CBA actually charges the deeper u are into tax....Also google the term "repeater tax"

if u think MLSE (aka bell/rogers) is going to pay $4 for every additional dollar for salary (like dan gilbert with the cavs), ur absolutely delusional

Dude what are you talking about? You have to exceed it three of five years to get nailed with the repeater tax. We haven't used it once. So are you saying that never use it at all and pay tax because you might use it four time? And have to pay more? That's so nuts. Nothing about what he said is delusional. But your analysis is. It's not about just exceeding the tax line, it's about exceeding the salary cap line and this is the only way to do it.

bro ur delusional if u think the raptors are gonna pay a penalty of $3.75 on top of every dollar of salary in order to resign all our guys. (which is the threshold we would meet in order to re-sign all the boys back)

You don't understand it right. First off, it's not 3.75 on every dollar over the tax, or for even every dollar over 20 million over the tax. Its incremental like your income tax. Its 3.75 for every dollar over 20 million over the cap. Its 1.50 for 0-5, 1.75 from 5-10 etc. And we aren't paying the repeater tax which was you original argument which you have now moved on from

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q21

Then there is the fact that Ujiri has repeatedly stated that he has the commitment from MLSE to spend what it takes. That was as recent as this week.

Ibaka and Tucker are both free agents this summer, but the Raptors do have their Bird rights and Ujiri reaffirmed the commitment from ownership to do whatever and spend whatever it takes.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/23/raptors-acquire-pj-tucker-of-the-suns

You haven't also understood the cap and tax level is moving much further up each year up to 2020. Or that we can shed other salary. You just go with the max number and run around panicking.

Before you call people delusional, telling others they have zero understanding of the team, and figure what the heck you're talking about first. Bro.

[Tanner]

Like I said, they need to either draft a star or have one develop. Not sure Norm or Delon have that upside but I think those two and Purtle will be good players.

A Jimmy Butler type of late 1st that turns into a star within the next 2-3 years would be huge. Not going to be easy, but in Masai we trust.

[LonZoBallin]

Dude what are you talking about? You have to exceed it three of five years to get nailed with the repeater tax. We haven't used it once. So are you saying that never use it at all and pay tax because you might use it four time? And have to pay more? That's so nuts. Nothing about what he said is delusional. But your analysis is. It's not about just exceeding the tax line, it's about exceeding the salary cap line and this is the only way to do it.

bro ur delusional if u think the raptors are gonna pay a penalty of $3.75 on top of every dollar of salary in order to resign all our guys. (which is the threshold we would meet in order to re-sign all the boys back)

You don't understand it right. First off, it's not 3.75 on every dollar over the tax, or for even every dollar over 20 million over the tax. Its incremental like your income tax. Its 3.75 for every dollar over 20 million over the cap. Its 1.50 for 0-5, 1.75 from 5-10 etc. And we aren't paying the repeater tax which was you original argument which you have now moved on from

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q21

Then there is the fact that Ujiri has repeatedly stated that he has the commitment from MLSE to spend what it takes. That was as recent as this week.

Ibaka and Tucker are both free agents this summer, but the Raptors do have their Bird rights and Ujiri reaffirmed the commitment from ownership to do whatever and spend whatever it takes.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/23/raptors-acquire-pj-tucker-of-the-suns

You haven't also understood the tax is moving much further up each year up to 2020. Or that we can shed other salary. You just go with the max number and run around panicking.

Before you call people delusional, figure what the heck you're talking about first. Bro.

If you shed salary, you're becoming worse. Since you aren't good enough now how are you going to get better losing a piece? And yes the tax does go up each year....but after we re-sign Lowry, PP and Ibaka this off-season? It's Powell and Bebe the next. It's not like this season is the last year we have to re-sign guys.