2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[sophie23]

:nonono: Lebron has no case over Harden.

LeBron rests while "others" put in work every night. People just need to stop arguing LeBron's case.

Its not just that JH n WB are playing better seasons than him, its also that they put in work every night, its a regular season award afterall.

Rests? Playing like 37,5 minutes per game.
Lebron 10' and 13' 6 games left and still mvp. Now its 4 days and last one out of an illness.
Voters will not look if sb has played 76 or 82 games.
Stop argueing? People starts argueing now because the gap is closing.


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It's "arguing"..

Arguing - thanks my bad
'nonono: Lebron has no case over Harden.' I ve never said he is in front of harden. Jh is frontrunner.

However saying he has no case it's not true. Simply: team record 'yet', team ranking.

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[Doctor MJ]

Those 3 are all valid arguments for why Westbrook's impact isn't as high as Westbrook fans want to believe. You can't just arbitrarily dismiss arguments you don't like.
We've already been over usage and turnover percentage. Westbrook trails massively behind the other candidates in scoring efficiency also.

TS%-
Durant- .653
Curry- .632
Leonard- .617
James- .616
Harden- .615
Westbrook-.542(below the league average)

Also, willing your team into the playoffs has historically been given nearly zero credit in the MVP race. You nearly always need to lead your team to a top 5 record in the league.

Of course Westbrook trails in offensive efficiency. Every other player you've listed has significantly more help offensively, and doesn't have to shoulder the same workload. He doesn't have the luxury of shooters spacing the floor, or even a reliable second scorer.

I don't think he is the MVP as previously stated, but there is a narrative around Westbrook (Durant leaving, averaging a triple double) that has never been there for candidates outside the top few teams in the league. If anyone is ever going to win an MVP on a 5/6 seed it will be him.

I'm happy to hear any arguments, but this all started because you sarcastically pointed out his shooting and turnovers in a game he controlled from start to finish. That is just lazy criticism. The unique reality with Westbrook is he can shoot poorly, turn it over a bunch and still be by far the most influential guy on the floor.

Westbrook's efficiency issues where there before so you can't brush that away based on current context.

In this era all top-tier scorers have adopted their games to the analytics, and Westbrook just can't keep up.



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[bondom34]

So by this, all that matters is shooting. And players should change to have better stats? Because last check you were heavy into plus/minus. In which Westbrook is doing quite well. His offense is second to Harden.

[Doctor MJ]

So by this, all that matters is shooting. And players should change to have better stats? Because last check you were heavy into plus/minus. In which Westbrook is doing quite well. His offense is second to Harden.

I didn't say that was all that mattered but clearly Westbrook's efficiency level is what it is.


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[yoyoboy]

Harden's On-Off is +3.4. LeBron's is +13.0.

Harden's RPM is +5.03. LeBron's is +6.21.

People have this tendency to look at only the next 2 best players on a team like "ZOMG Harden has no All Stars while LeBron has Kyrie and Kevin Love, therefore his supporting cast is infinitely worse!" ignoring the fact that without Harden on the floor, Houston is extending leads while Cleveland plays like a bottom 5 team in the league without LeBron on the floor. Even with 2 consensus stars in the league Kyrie and Love both ON and LeBron OFF, they only operate at a +1.7 Net Rating. And that comes with the a primary chunk of those minutes coming against bench players.

And you can't even make the argument that the Cavs only fall apart without LeBron on the floor because they're specifically built around him. Houston's offense is essentially Harden drive and score or kick out to three point shooter just like Cleveland's. And while I can agree that Harden has been a better offensive player this season than LeBron, I don't think it's as big as the defensive gap in LeBron's favor.

[Doctor MJ]

Harden's On-Off is +3.4. LeBron's is +13.0.

Harden's RPM is +5.03. LeBron's is +6.21.

People have this tendency to look at only the next 2 best players on a team like "ZOMG Harden has no All Stars while LeBron has Kyrie and Kevin Love, therefore his supporting cast is infinitely worse!" ignoring the fact that without Harden on the floor, Houston is extending leads while Cleveland plays like a bottom 5 team in the league without LeBron on the floor. Even with 2 consensus stars in the league Kyrie and Love both ON and LeBron OFF, they only operate at a +1.7 Net Rating. And that comes with the a primary chunk of those minutes coming against bench players.

And you can't even make the argument that the Cavs only fall apart without LeBron on the floor because they're specifically built around him. Houston's offense is essentially Harden drive and score or kick out to three point shooter just like Cleveland's. And while I can agree that Harden has been a better offensive player this season than LeBron, I don't think it's as big as the defensive gap in LeBron's favor.

Houston isn't built around Harden, it is built around analytics. Harden does especially well in it because he's built his game around analytics as well. So basically Houston is just playing smarter basketball than Cleveland because LeBron has chosen to have his team play a particular way that really relies on his unique set of skills

Not wanting to knock LeBron. I think he's got a strong case for MVP right now. But when you handpicked your teammates and coach like this and push them to adapt around you, you basically never get to use the whole weak supporting cast excuse.

Cleveland with this talent should be better, and LeBron owns part of that struggle. The thing is though, when you are defending champs and #1 seed, how much should we really nitpick?


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[Screwston]

^^ n Houston has a better bench. So of course their on n off are gonna be different, having 3-4 players (Tristan) on max contracts, won't let you have a very good bench. So obviously Harden's on n off is gonna be worse than Brons when Rockets got one of the best benches in the league, if not the best with the addition of Lou Williams. I mean the other night vs the Pelicans the bench scored over 70 points.

[yoyoboy]

Harden's On-Off is +3.4. LeBron's is +13.0.

Harden's RPM is +5.03. LeBron's is +6.21.

People have this tendency to look at only the next 2 best players on a team like "ZOMG Harden has no All Stars while LeBron has Kyrie and Kevin Love, therefore his supporting cast is infinitely worse!" ignoring the fact that without Harden on the floor, Houston is extending leads while Cleveland plays like a bottom 5 team in the league without LeBron on the floor. Even with 2 consensus stars in the league Kyrie and Love both ON and LeBron OFF, they only operate at a +1.7 Net Rating. And that comes with the a primary chunk of those minutes coming against bench players.

And you can't even make the argument that the Cavs only fall apart without LeBron on the floor because they're specifically built around him. Houston's offense is essentially Harden drive and score or kick out to three point shooter just like Cleveland's. And while I can agree that Harden has been a better offensive player this season than LeBron, I don't think it's as big as the defensive gap in LeBron's favor.

Houston isn't built around Harden, it is built around analytics. Harden does especially well in it because he's built his game around analytics as well. So basically Houston is just playing smarter basketball than Cleveland because LeBron has chosen to have his team play a particular way that really relies on his unique set of skills

Not wanting to knock LeBron. I think he's got a strong case for MVP right now. But when you handpicked your teammates and coach like this and push them to adapt around you, you basically never get to use the whole weak supporting cast excuse.

Cleveland with this talent should be better, and LeBron owns part of that struggle. The thing is though, when you are defending champs and #1 seed, how much should we really nitpick?


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Not saying is supporting cast is weak at all. Far from it. But with the number of games Love and JR and others have missed, we really haven't seen this full Cavs team in action. Plus what I'm really getting at is Houston's supporting cast is really undervalued due to a lack of star power outside of Harden. Their bench is probably the best in the league and the fact that they can run so efficiently without Harden is a testament to how well their coached but also the skills of the players themselves.

Also I disagree that LeBron has handpicked his teammates and forced them to adapt around him. Korver, Frye, JR, Shumpert, Kyrie, Tristan, etc are all playing their optimal roles. Really the only one who had to "adapt" is Love, but he's really settled in and before injuries started derailing him he was playing arguably the best ball of his career, usage aside. And he's one of two players this season with both an ORPM and DRPM above +2. In 2014 his RPM was +5.06 and this year it's +4.93, so even though his role is smaller I don't think his value is being too marginalized.

[bondom34]

So by this, all that matters is shooting. And players should change to have better stats? Because last check you were heavy into plus/minus. In which Westbrook is doing quite well. His offense is second to Harden.

I didn't say that was all that mattered but clearly Westbrook's efficiency level is what it is.


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This is correct, but efficiency is not the only part of offense. So in the end, it is a small part of a larger puzzle which he excels at, to the point of being better than nearly anyone else.

[K_chile22]

Harden's On-Off is +3.4. LeBron's is +13.0.

Harden's RPM is +5.03. LeBron's is +6.21.

People have this tendency to look at only the next 2 best players on a team like "ZOMG Harden has no All Stars while LeBron has Kyrie and Kevin Love, therefore his supporting cast is infinitely worse!" ignoring the fact that without Harden on the floor, Houston is extending leads while Cleveland plays like a bottom 5 team in the league without LeBron on the floor. Even with 2 consensus stars in the league Kyrie and Love both ON and LeBron OFF, they only operate at a +1.7 Net Rating. And that comes with the a primary chunk of those minutes coming against bench players.

And you can't even make the argument that the Cavs only fall apart without LeBron on the floor because they're specifically built around him. Houston's offense is essentially Harden drive and score or kick out to three point shooter just like Cleveland's. And while I can agree that Harden has been a better offensive player this season than LeBron, I don't think it's as big as the defensive gap in LeBron's favor.

Their offensive on/off is identical last I checked, and individual players have a MUCH greater offensive impact than they do defensively. Defensive on off is a lot of who you play with, especially for wings and Guards

[K_chile22]

Per basketball reference, the Rockets have the highest offensive rating of any team with only 1 all star in NBA history.
8th overall.
If you ask me that screams MVP.

[Doctor MJ]

Harden's On-Off is +3.4. LeBron's is +13.0.

Harden's RPM is +5.03. LeBron's is +6.21.

People have this tendency to look at only the next 2 best players on a team like "ZOMG Harden has no All Stars while LeBron has Kyrie and Kevin Love, therefore his supporting cast is infinitely worse!" ignoring the fact that without Harden on the floor, Houston is extending leads while Cleveland plays like a bottom 5 team in the league without LeBron on the floor. Even with 2 consensus stars in the league Kyrie and Love both ON and LeBron OFF, they only operate at a +1.7 Net Rating. And that comes with the a primary chunk of those minutes coming against bench players.

And you can't even make the argument that the Cavs only fall apart without LeBron on the floor because they're specifically built around him. Houston's offense is essentially Harden drive and score or kick out to three point shooter just like Cleveland's. And while I can agree that Harden has been a better offensive player this season than LeBron, I don't think it's as big as the defensive gap in LeBron's favor.

Houston isn't built around Harden, it is built around analytics. Harden does especially well in it because he's built his game around analytics as well. So basically Houston is just playing smarter basketball than Cleveland because LeBron has chosen to have his team play a particular way that really relies on his unique set of skills

Not wanting to knock LeBron. I think he's got a strong case for MVP right now. But when you handpicked your teammates and coach like this and push them to adapt around you, you basically never get to use the whole weak supporting cast excuse.

Cleveland with this talent should be better, and LeBron owns part of that struggle. The thing is though, when you are defending champs and #1 seed, how much should we really nitpick?


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Not saying is supporting cast is weak at all. Far from it. But with the number of games Love and JR and others have missed, we really haven't seen this full Cavs team in action. Plus what I'm really getting at is Houston's supporting cast is really undervalued due to a lack of star power outside of Harden. Their bench is probably the best in the league and the fact that they can run so efficiently without Harden is a testament to how well their coached but also the skills of the players themselves.

Also I disagree that LeBron has handpicked his teammates and forced them to adapt around him. Korver, Frye, JR, Shumpert, Kyrie, Tristan, etc are all playing their optimal roles. Really the only one who had to "adapt" is Love, but he's really settled in and before injuries started derailing him he was playing arguably the best ball of his career, usage aside. And he's one of two players this season with both an ORPM and DRPM above +2. In 2014 his RPM was +5.06 and this year it's +4.93, so even though his role is smaller I don't think his value is being too marginalized.

It's just a fundamental thing to me:

If any LeBron argument relies on him having a weaker supporting cast than the other guy, that argument probably fails. LeBron has a superteam of talent of his own choosing and the only other team like this is Golden State. When Cleveland fails to look like a superteam, it's a problem, and yes there have been injuries, but let's face it, the Cavs have never looked as good as their talent except for that run to win the title last year. The fact that they won the title is a big deal and frankly might end up making feel it's absurd to really knock LeBron for anything, but I'm still not interested in hearing about how other teams that scrounged a bunch of misfits are more talented than what LeBron has to work with.

[Doctor MJ]

So by this, all that matters is shooting. And players should change to have better stats? Because last check you were heavy into plus/minus. In which Westbrook is doing quite well. His offense is second to Harden.

I didn't say that was all that mattered but clearly Westbrook's efficiency level is what it is.


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This is correct, but efficiency is not the only part of offense. So in the end, it is a small part of a larger puzzle which he excels at, to the point of being better than nearly anyone else.

Okay, I'll let you have the last word bond.

[Torchmode]

Guys, we have to stop looking at this award as a "if he doesent play and our team loses, that means hes the MVP" type of award.

The reward has always gone to the player whos having the best season statistically, and whos team is also a top team.

Westbrook and Harden are having CLEARLY better seasons then lebron, they also arent sitting out games for "rest".

[nbafan38]

Guys, we have to stop looking at this award as a "if he doesent play and our team loses, that means hes the MVP" type of award.

The reward has always gone to the player whos having the best season statistically, and whos team is also a top team.

Westbrook and Harden are having CLEARLY better seasons then lebron, they also arent sitting out games for "rest".

Agree with this.

[RCM88x]

Guys, we have to stop looking at this award as a "if he doesent play and our team loses, that means hes the MVP" type of award.

The reward has always gone to the player whos having the best season statistically, and whos team is also a top team.

Westbrook and Harden are having CLEARLY better seasons then lebron, they also arent sitting out games for "rest".

Clearly if you don't pay attention to defense at all, efficiency at all, or turnovers at all, or pure impact at all...

If all you look at is raw points, rebounds, and assists, then yes they are on top.

[Warriors07]

Most valuable player to a team: Lebron (for every season)
Best unselfish player that makes teammates better: Curry (best player without the ball)
Most explosive player who does it all: Westbrook (overdoing it)
Best offensive player overall: Durant
Craftiest scorer highest BB-IQ: Harden

Also their overall MVP rankings - based on who I would pick first to start a franchise in 2017.
Lebron
Curry
Durant
Harden
Westbrook

Three guys already got the award. This season the Beard definitely deserve it. Better record then WB, and overall more valuable in my book, coz WB style doesnt bring anything for his teammates, he dictates too much, he'll remains 5th best player and eventually get his MVP once the 4 players above got theirs.

[Goodfellaz]

hopefully you guys are just arguing for the sake of who you would LIKE to win the award.

if you want to know who is in the running, just find any sportsbook, or vegas odds.... its a 2 man race between westbrook and harden. No one else has a chance this year.

[Doctor MJ]

Guys, we have to stop looking at this award as a "if he doesent play and our team loses, that means hes the MVP" type of award.

The reward has always gone to the player whos having the best season statistically, and whos team is also a top team.

Westbrook and Harden are having CLEARLY better seasons then lebron, they also arent sitting out games for "rest".

Not that I want to hang my hat on the first method alone, but I really don't find it compelling that discussion here should emulate oversimplified and arbitrary voting patterns.


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[mdonnelly1989]

Most valuable player to a team: Lebron (for every season)
Best unselfish player that makes teammates better: Curry (best player without the ball)
Most explosive player who does it all: Westbrook (overdoing it)
Best offensive player overall: Durant
Craftiest scorer highest BB-IQ: Harden

Also their overall MVP rankings - based on who I would pick first to start a franchise in 2017.
Lebron
Curry
Durant
Harden
Westbrook

Three guys already got the award. This season the Beard definitely deserve it. Better record then WB, and overall more valuable in my book, coz WB style doesnt bring anything for his teammates, he dictates too much, he'll remains 5th best player and eventually get his MVP once the 4 players above got theirs.

I still feel like Curry is the best offensive player overall. It's close though between he and KD.