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Only fast tanks are effective and....

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Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#1 » by tbhawksfan1 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:41 am

Only fast tanks are effective and if you want to buy a fast tank in the NBA you got to have a trade in. Many teams have tried to rebuild by buying a slow tank and never gotten back up to speed. One team recently did a rebuild by buying a fast tank and the results are very good. BOS jettisoned two ageing stars before it was too late and set themselves up for a very fast turn around.

The reason most tanks don't work is that the tanking team let their roster become so depleted before pushing the button that they had nothing to trade in to kick start the fast rebuild.

The alternative to tanking is to try and play tread-mill, fringe playoff strategy. It can work and you can "make" the playoffs. But this strategy has a tendancy to deplete rosters. Weak investment in the now creating a bigger cost to future potential.

The only way to do the fast tank (1 1/2 seasons) is to know when to cash in on "GOOD" assets and create future gain. The Hawks have just let that opportunity slip away. Last off-season and this trade deadline were the last opportunity for the Hawks to do the fast tank. We have now reached a talent depletion that leaves us with very little trade in value.

Ferry and Budcox have put us in this situation. Ferry made some nice early moves, but whiffed on the chance to take advantage of a short window in the 60 win season by not aggressively adding to that team. When that team wasn't good enough, he went the band-aid route. Budcox has continued the band-aid route, but with less assets and no window. Next off-season we are going to see either the beginning of a slow tank or more treadmill with even less present assets on the team.

The clear result of this STRATEGY is a late seed playoff team trending down with depleted assets and little growth potential. The chance at a fast tank is out the window. So declining treadmill or slow, crappy tank. :banghead:
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Re: Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#2 » by jayu70 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:55 pm

tbhawksfan1 wrote:Ferry and Budcox have put us in this situation. Ferry made some nice early moves, but whiffed on the chance to take advantage of a short window in the 60 win season by not aggressively adding to that team. When that team wasn't good enough, he went the band-aid route. Budcox has continued the band-aid route, but with less assets and no window. Next off-season we are going to see either the beginning of a slow tank or more treadmill with even less present assets on the team.

Just noting that Ferry was 'away' from the team during that 60 win season so there were no decisions to be made by him. Ownership was a mess. Team being sold etc. New ownership was in place June 2015 Then Ferry was out.
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Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#3 » by Jamaaliver » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:08 pm

tbhawksfan1 wrote:Only fast tanks are effective and if you want to buy a fast tank in the NBA you got to have a trade in. One team recently did a rebuild by buying a fast tank and the results are very good. BOS jettisoned two ageing stars before it was too late and set themselves up for a very fast turn around.

The reason most tanks don't work is that the tanking team let their roster become so depleted before pushing the button that they had nothing to trade in to kick start the fast rebuild.

We have now reached a talent depletion that leaves us with very little trade in value.



Bingo.

After that stellar 60-win season in 2015, we had cap space, open roster spots in the starting five and the momentum from the best season in franchise history.

That was the time to act. Instead we kept things in tact for another year. And then made sweeping changes a year too late.

ALL-STARS Horford & Teague plus the #15 pick had great trade value if packaged together.

The problem was assuming that by standing pat, we'd maintain our status in the top tier. We failed to aggressively pursue elite talent, instead focusing on keeping that core together.

And inevitably wound up being bypassed by more aggressive, more talented teams.



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Re: Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#4 » by MaceCase » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:56 pm

Eh, Boston is a very poor example of "tanking" unless that definition has changed or is being co-opted to fit this argument.

Tell me if you've heard this story before, Boston coming off an ECF appearance were perfectly content with doubling down and investing in their old core by giving Garnett an extension, they also signed Jason Terry and traded for Courtney Lee. They were considering themselves still an Eastern contender up until Rondo went down with an ACL injury in January of that season. The team bottomed out with a .500 record, numerous other injuries and were eliminated in the 1st round.

It's only at that point that they jettisoned their older players for a sweetheart deal opting instead to build around Rondo. Their lone sub-40 win season of course consisted of them not having Rondo for most of it as he recovered from ACL surgery. The season after he'd fully recovered from surgery they attempted to extend him and only after he rejected that deal did they jettison him while continuing to fight for a playoff spot after.

The rest of their moves have been the very definition of tread milling:

Consistently making the playoffs as a lower seed only to get bounced in the first round? Check.
Trading draft picks for veteran players? Check.
Whiffing on top tier free agents they pursued heavily? Check.
Overpaying 3rd tier free agents? Check.

Boston is a unique situation in that they are a treadmill team that is depending on another team to tank their high end picks for them. Ainge is perfectly content riding with a squad that despite being 2nd in the East has a losing record against teams .500 and above while hoping on signing an impact free agent and getting a top-draft pick in the summer.

Sound familiar? That was precisely the Hawks starting from 2012.

There's no such thing as a "fast tank". By "tanking" you deliberately strip down your roster in intention of securing high picks and cap space which is a long process. Being bad for one season due to injury doesn't constitute tanking lest you enter the Spurs and Duncan into the conversation. Had the Hawks missed the playoffs by one game in 2014 due to Horford's injury and gotten Wiggins, Parker or Embiid that would not be constituted as a "fast tank" no more than had the Nets missed the playoffs in 2015 by one game and the Hawks not only enjoyed a 60 win season but Karl-Anthony Towns to show for it.
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Re: Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#5 » by 76ciology » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:18 am

How fast your rebuild is how extreme your tank/rebuild is. Unless, you get lucky (outlier).
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Re: Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#6 » by tbhawksfan1 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:00 am

76ciology wrote:How fast your rebuild is how extreme your tank/rebuild is. Unless, you get lucky (outlier).


Right, but the "extreme" is determined by tradable assets that you can flip for picks, cap space and young guys to sign/trade for and develop.

If you start a rebuild with nothing to trade, your rebuild will be more extreme. Hence, why we should have moved Sap. We only have the extreme option now.

BOS did a fast rebuild because they moved their tradable players to KICK START their rebuild. They now have a top 3 team in the East and one of the best pick situations in the NBA.

An article came out earlier in the season from Forbes, I think, that placed future value and the Hawks had taken a big slide from the previous year. Then they didn't move Sap and things went dark
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Re: Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#7 » by jayu70 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:17 pm

Fast Tank? The way I see it - that's the easy part.

It's the rebuild that's more difficult.
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Re: Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#8 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:32 pm

jayu70 wrote:Fast Tank? The way I see it - that's the easy part.

It's the rebuild that's more difficult.



Agreed. It's made easier when you have a foundation of veterans to build upon. Adding top young talent along the way.

We no longer have a strong foundation to build upon. Millsap can't do it by himself.

Millsap, Korver, Horford and DeMarre, Teague were the veteran cornerstones to bridge the gap to a new generation of players.

Outside of Millsap, I don't trust any of the guys on this team to help aid in the development of young guys moving forward.
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Re: Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#9 » by Robo_Claw » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:41 pm

At least we aren't Orlando they've been tanking forever and look where that got them.
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Re: Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#10 » by jayu70 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:47 pm

Robo_Claw wrote:At least we aren't Orlando they've been tanking forever and look where that got them.

Or Minny or Sacramento.
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Re: Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#11 » by jayu70 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:48 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
jayu70 wrote:Fast Tank? The way I see it - that's the easy part.

It's the rebuild that's more difficult.



Agreed. It's made easier when you have a foundation of veterans to build upon. Adding top young talent along the way.

We no longer have a strong foundation to build upon. Millsap can't do it by himself.

Millsap, Korver, Horford and DeMarre, Teague were the veteran cornerstones to bridge the gap to a new generation of players.

yep
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Re: Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#12 » by jayu70 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:49 pm

jayu70 wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:
jayu70 wrote:Fast Tank? The way I see it - that's the easy part.

It's the rebuild that's more difficult.



Agreed. It's made easier when you have a foundation of veterans to build upon. Adding top young talent along the way.

We no longer have a strong foundation to build upon. Millsap can't do it by himself.

Millsap, Korver, Horford and DeMarre, Teague were the veteran cornerstones to bridge the gap to a new generation of players.

yep
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Re: Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#13 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:18 pm

Found this article written about us last summer exceptionally relevant and familiar.

Outside of ATL...everyone saw this coming. Only bud has been in denial.

It should be blatantly obvious that the Hawks' current makeup isn't going to contend for a title...the sad reality is that major improvement will be hard to find.

...But if Horford leaves, Atlanta would be in an excellent position to pivot for a quick turnaround, even if next season would be tough.

The Hawks have several veterans on cheap and expiring contracts [whom] could easily be flipped to contenders for future draft picks. And if Atlanta chooses to stink for a year, it would be silly not to listen to offers for Paul Millsap, whose market value will never be higher.

Why not sit this one out and have a major edge in the sweepstakes a year later? Why not see how Dennis Schroder handles the starting point guard duties? Why not take a step back and have a chance to leap forward?

The unknown might be scary, but being mundane is dull and unrewarding.
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Re: Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#14 » by tbhawksfan1 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:10 pm

I've been talking about a different strategy. We have to develop to have a chance. We've done a good job of that. problem is, we're developing older players. They rise and we either can't re-sign them because of age and cost or we have to re-sign ageing players. Change the strategy, put the development emphasis on the younger guys brought in through trade/FA/draft. You can sign older FAs to help with the wins and teaching the young guys, but you move them while they have value and keep developping the young guys. It's a simple business strategy; buy low, sell high, but with the age, cost, curve and potential variables.

Should have gotten something for Horf and Sap.
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Re: Only fast tanks are effective and.... 

Post#15 » by Jamaaliver » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:58 am

tbhawksfan1 wrote:I've been talking about a different strategy. We have to develop to have a chance. We've done a good job of that. problem is, we're developing older players. They rise and we either can't re-sign them because of age and cost or we have to re-sign ageing players. Change the strategy, put the development emphasis on the younger guys brought in through trade/FA/draft. You can sign older FAs to help with the wins and teaching the young guys, but you move them while they have value and keep developping the young guys. It's a simple business strategy; buy low, sell high, but with the age, cost, curve and potential variables.

Should have gotten something for Horf and Sap.


100% agree, TB.


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