Build a Team 17.0 Discussion Thread #3 (NBA Champion will be announced Thursday 7PM)

[Greenie]

My team got fuqed up in the first rd?
Did my squad get hurt?

[br7knicks]

My team got fuqed up in the first rd?
Did my squad get hurt?

I can't go back and look, sorry. i've already simmed past that point.

[swisscheeseD]

My team got fuqed up in the first rd?
Did my squad get hurt?

I can't go back and look, sorry. i've already simmed past that point.

FWIW, this is what I submitted to bish for the actual judging portion...

Washington Wizards at Indiana Pacers

Washington Wizards

Malcolm Brogdon/Seth Curry
Courtney Lee/Alec Burks/Jamal Murray
Kawhi Leonard/Kyle Anderson
Ersan Ilyasova/Ben Simmons/Dwight Powell
Steven Adams/Roy Hibbert

Indiana Pacers

Projected Minutes:
Isaiah Thomas (38) | Yogi Ferrell (10) | Jerian Grant
Iman Shumpert (31) | Langston Galloway (13) | Glenn Robinson (4)
Demarre Carroll (34) | DeAndre Liggins (12) | Iman Shumpert (2)
Draymond Green (38) | Willie Reed (10) | Kevon Looney
Brook Lopez (28) | Nene (18) | Willie Reed (2)

WINNER - Indiana Pacers (4-2)

Washington's major downfall in this series becomes their lack of a secondary scoring option and potential inconsistencies with their playmaking. With no true second option, the Pacers can focus primarily on Leonard. The Wiz also don't have any ability to exploit Lopez or IT's weaknesses defensively. Those two need to be attacked in the pick and roll, but a Brogdon/Adams combination isn't scaring anyone offensively. While Adams is tremendously efficient and more than capable as a roll-man, he isn't a go-to option offensively and is more of a traditional big that Lopez can stay in front of. He doesn't take Lopez out on the perimeter away from the basket and neither would his backup Hibbert.

On the other hand, with Lopez' new found 3pt range, the pick n roll/pop game with IT/Dray will keep those bigs on their feet and further from the basket, opening up lanes all over the place to drive or hit the cutter. The floor is completely spaced for Indiana, with each player in the Starting 5 shooting respectably from 3. IT/Dray will have plenty of room to operate. Thomas is having a career year and is the best 4th quarter scorer in the NBA. He is by far the best and most clutch offensive weapon on the court.

The only way to beat a great defense is an even better offense. The Pacers are much more dynamic offensively, can get out in transition and can stretch the Wiz out in the halfcourt. I do see Kawhi and this defense giving the Pacers offense fits at time, and the depth of Washington being too much to overcome on certain nights. But I ultimately believe they lack the offensive firepower to keep up with the Pacers in this series.

**Disclaimer**
It is really unfortunate that the judging process will be completed before we get to see what Ben Simmons looks like in an NBA game to determine exactly how much impact he could have right away, even after injury. Assuming he's back for the post-season and factoring the impact he can potentially have, even with the potential of a minutes limitation...he does change the complexion of that Washington roster...I just didn't think it was enough.

---

[Mecca]

My team got fuqed up in the first rd?
Did my squad get hurt?

I can't go back and look, sorry. i've already simmed past that point.

FWIW, this is what I submitted to bish for the actual judging portion...

Washington Wizards at Indiana Pacers

Washington Wizards

Malcolm Brogdon/Seth Curry
Courtney Lee/Alec Burks/Jamal Murray
Kawhi Leonard/Kyle Anderson
Ersan Ilyasova/Ben Simmons/Dwight Powell
Steven Adams/Roy Hibbert

Indiana Pacers

Projected Minutes:
Isaiah Thomas (38) | Yogi Ferrell (10) | Jerian Grant
Iman Shumpert (31) | Langston Galloway (13) | Glenn Robinson (4)
Demarre Carroll (34) | DeAndre Liggins (12) | Iman Shumpert (2)
Draymond Green (38) | Willie Reed (10) | Kevon Looney
Brook Lopez (28) | Nene (18) | Willie Reed (2)

WINNER - Indiana Pacers (4-2)

Washington's major downfall in this series becomes their lack of a secondary scoring option and potential inconsistencies with their playmaking. With no true second option, the Pacers can focus primarily on Leonard. The Wiz also don't have any ability to exploit Lopez or IT's weaknesses defensively. Those two need to be attacked in the pick and roll, but a Brogdon/Adams combination isn't scaring anyone offensively. While Adams is tremendously efficient and more than capable as a roll-man, he isn't a go-to option offensively and is more of a traditional big that Lopez can stay in front of. He doesn't take Lopez out on the perimeter away from the basket and neither would his backup Hibbert.

On the other hand, with Lopez' new found 3pt range, the pick n roll/pop game with IT/Dray will keep those bigs on their feet and further from the basket, opening up lanes all over the place to drive or hit the cutter. The floor is completely spaced for Indiana, with each player in the Starting 5 shooting respectably from 3. IT/Dray will have plenty of room to operate. Thomas is having a career year and is the best 4th quarter scorer in the NBA. He is by far the best and most clutch offensive weapon on the court.

The only way to beat a great defense is an even better offense. The Pacers are much more dynamic offensively, can get out in transition and can stretch the Wiz out in the halfcourt. I do see Kawhi and this defense giving the Pacers offense fits at time, and the depth of Washington being too much to overcome on certain nights. But I ultimately believe they lack the offensive firepower to keep up with the Pacers in this series.

**Disclaimer**
It is really unfortunate that the judging process will be completed before we get to see what Ben Simmons looks like in an NBA game to determine exactly how much impact he could have right away, even after injury. Assuming he's back for the post-season and factoring the impact he can potentially have, even with the potential of a minutes limitation...he does change the complexion of that Washington roster...I just didn't think it was enough.

---

Can you post what you wrote about my team?

[Greenie]

My team got fuqed up in the first rd?
Did my squad get hurt?

I can't go back and look, sorry. i've already simmed past that point.

FWIW, this is what I submitted to bish for the actual judging portion...

Washington Wizards at Indiana Pacers

Washington Wizards

Malcolm Brogdon/Seth Curry
Courtney Lee/Alec Burks/Jamal Murray
Kawhi Leonard/Kyle Anderson
Ersan Ilyasova/Ben Simmons/Dwight Powell
Steven Adams/Roy Hibbert

Indiana Pacers

Projected Minutes:
Isaiah Thomas (38) | Yogi Ferrell (10) | Jerian Grant
Iman Shumpert (31) | Langston Galloway (13) | Glenn Robinson (4)
Demarre Carroll (34) | DeAndre Liggins (12) | Iman Shumpert (2)
Draymond Green (38) | Willie Reed (10) | Kevon Looney
Brook Lopez (28) | Nene (18) | Willie Reed (2)

WINNER - Indiana Pacers (4-2)

Washington's major downfall in this series becomes their lack of a secondary scoring option and potential inconsistencies with their playmaking. With no true second option, the Pacers can focus primarily on Leonard. The Wiz also don't have any ability to exploit Lopez or IT's weaknesses defensively. Those two need to be attacked in the pick and roll, but a Brogdon/Adams combination isn't scaring anyone offensively. While Adams is tremendously efficient and more than capable as a roll-man, he isn't a go-to option offensively and is more of a traditional big that Lopez can stay in front of. He doesn't take Lopez out on the perimeter away from the basket and neither would his backup Hibbert.

On the other hand, with Lopez' new found 3pt range, the pick n roll/pop game with IT/Dray will keep those bigs on their feet and further from the basket, opening up lanes all over the place to drive or hit the cutter. The floor is completely spaced for Indiana, with each player in the Starting 5 shooting respectably from 3. IT/Dray will have plenty of room to operate. Thomas is having a career year and is the best 4th quarter scorer in the NBA. He is by far the best and most clutch offensive weapon on the court.

The only way to beat a great defense is an even better offense. The Pacers are much more dynamic offensively, can get out in transition and can stretch the Wiz out in the halfcourt. I do see Kawhi and this defense giving the Pacers offense fits at time, and the depth of Washington being too much to overcome on certain nights. But I ultimately believe they lack the offensive firepower to keep up with the Pacers in this series.

**Disclaimer**
It is really unfortunate that the judging process will be completed before we get to see what Ben Simmons looks like in an NBA game to determine exactly how much impact he could have right away, even after injury. Assuming he's back for the post-season and factoring the impact he can potentially have, even with the potential of a minutes limitation...he does change the complexion of that Washington roster...I just didn't think it was enough.

---

Hmmm
Understood, but I will ask this;
Can a team with no second option on offense win 62 games? In the sim my team won the east and had a top 10 offense and defense.

Teams like that usually don't get bounced by the 8th seed.

That's all.

[swisscheeseD]

I can't go back and look, sorry. i've already simmed past that point.

FWIW, this is what I submitted to bish for the actual judging portion...

WINNER - Indiana Pacers (4-2)

Washington's major downfall in this series becomes their lack of a secondary scoring option and potential inconsistencies with their playmaking. With no true second option, the Pacers can focus primarily on Leonard. The Wiz also don't have any ability to exploit Lopez or IT's weaknesses defensively. Those two need to be attacked in the pick and roll, but a Brogdon/Adams combination isn't scaring anyone offensively. While Adams is tremendously efficient and more than capable as a roll-man, he isn't a go-to option offensively and is more of a traditional big that Lopez can stay in front of. He doesn't take Lopez out on the perimeter away from the basket and neither would his backup Hibbert.

On the other hand, with Lopez' new found 3pt range, the pick n roll/pop game with IT/Dray will keep those bigs on their feet and further from the basket, opening up lanes all over the place to drive or hit the cutter. The floor is completely spaced for Indiana, with each player in the Starting 5 shooting respectably from 3. IT/Dray will have plenty of room to operate. Thomas is having a career year and is the best 4th quarter scorer in the NBA. He is by far the best and most clutch offensive weapon on the court.

The only way to beat a great defense is an even better offense. The Pacers are much more dynamic offensively, can get out in transition and can stretch the Wiz out in the halfcourt. I do see Kawhi and this defense giving the Pacers offense fits at time, and the depth of Washington being too much to overcome on certain nights. But I ultimately believe they lack the offensive firepower to keep up with the Pacers in this series.

**Disclaimer**
It is really unfortunate that the judging process will be completed before we get to see what Ben Simmons looks like in an NBA game to determine exactly how much impact he could have right away, even after injury. Assuming he's back for the post-season and factoring the impact he can potentially have, even with the potential of a minutes limitation...he does change the complexion of that Washington roster...I just didn't think it was enough.

---

Hmmm
Understood, but I will ask this;
Can a team with no second option on offense win 62 games? In the sim my team won the east and had a top 10 offense and defense.

Teams like that usually don't get bounced by the 8th seed.

That's all.

I actually had this matchup pegged as the 4/5 matchup in my regular season rankings.

My problem wasn't just a secondary scorer, in fact, I think the inconsistencies in your playmaking was even more the issue. I love Brogdon and was begging for Phil to acquire a late 1st/early 2nd for him, but he is not capable at this point in his career to be a primary facilitator and running a consistent/efficient offense.

As I stated, Simmons changes the whole dynamic of your roster...but we had nothing to go off of and had to assume minutes restrictions, how the injury affects his play and possibility of re-injury. This series was judged before he was even ruled out for the remainder of the season.

[3toheadmelo]

hey swiss, can I see what you submitted to bish about my team? thanks

[swisscheeseD]

Can you post what you wrote about my team?

Los Angeles Lakers at Golden State Warriors

Los Angeles Lakers

PG: Kemba Walker(38)| Shaun Livingston(10) | Isaiah Whitehead
SG: Gordon Hayward(28)| Shaun Livingston(16) | Patrick McCaw(4) | Malachi Richardson
SF: Otto Porter(18) | Kelly Oubre(20) | Gordon Hayward(10)
PF: Larry Nance Jr.(22) | Otto Porter(18) | David West(8)| Juan Hernangomez
C: Gorgui Dieng(32) | JaVale McGee(16) | Cristiano Felicio

Golden State Warriors

PG: Jrue Holiday (32 / Matthew Dellavedova (16) / Shabazz Napier (0)
SG: CJ McCollum (32) / Nik Stauskas (16)
SF: Thabo Sefolosha (30) / Dorian Finney-Smith (10) / Marcus Thornton (8) / Mike Miller (0)
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge (32) / Kenneth Faried (16) / Joel Anthony (0)
C: Alex Len (30) /Joakim Noah (15) / Louis Scola (3)

WINNER : Golden St. Warriors (4-2)

Golden State’s frontcourt will be the difference in this series. I love what the Lakers have put together there with the trio of Kemba/Hayward/Porter, but they are at a serious disadvantage on the boards on both sides of the ball. Even if Noah wasn’t 100% healthy for this series, LMA could play plenty of minutes at the 5 with Faried taking an extended role. The Warriors also feature some pesky perimeter defenders in Jrue/Delly/Thabo, that can certainly challenge the offensive dynamic of the Lakers Big 3. Both benches are fairly deep. While neither feature a gunner who needs to be game-planned for, there is a slight edge for GS’s bench with the spark their energy big’s and Delly provides defensively. Kemba is the best player in this series but he faces a tough matchup against Jrue. I think the toughest matchup for Golden St. to overcome is the size and strength of Hayward up against the smaller McCollum.

The Lakers would love to get out in transition, but with the Warriors dominating the boards, they’ll have an opportunity to control pace and will want to slow it down in the half-court, which much better suits their style of play. Aldridge will be a weapon in the low-post, something the Lakers don’t offer themselves.

I see this one going 6. Kemba’s ability to create and take over cannot be overlooked. I love LA’s small-ball lineup with Livingston in the backcourt and Porter running off screens at the 4. Ultimately, the Warriors figure them out, exploit the frontcourt mismatch and see big series’ offensively from Aldridge and McCollum that move them on to the 2nd Round.


---

FYI...I was pretty busy after handing in the East rankings and bish needed my results for the West, so I didn't have as much time to go into full detail.

[swisscheeseD]

hey swiss, can I see what you submitted to bish about my team? thanks

7. Cleveland Cavaliers – I will be honest, I hated the thought of qualifying this team as a playoff team. I think they did a terrible job surrounding Kevin Durant with talent worthy of his caliber to make a true contender. They left plenty on the table during many of their selections. No moves being made to get him a secondary star, or even another type of dynamic for style of play. Some of the picks weren’t even “safe” picks, just questionable one’s throughout. Everyone has their own style and preferences with player valuations, but ctorres just never goes for the jugular. He’d rather explain his selections with stats over so many recent games, or shot charts as a means of how these guys not just complement each other, but will take each of them to levels they’ve never even reached before. Teague is not a secondary piece, and even if he’s trying to be passed as one, it would mean that an elite 3rd option better be present…and it’s not. The frontcourt is a mess defensively with no rim protection from either of DLee/Plumlee. Terrance Jones is having a solid comeback season and while he should be starting in place of Lee, it isn’t so much of an upgrade that propels this team any further than where it is currently ranked. Is Kevin Durant really good enough to make this a playoff team? I have a hard time answering “no” to any question that asks me if “Durant is good enough” …Durant chose an easy way out once, fleeing the challenge in OKC with Westbrook. How is he going to respond facing similar challenges with Teague? This team has a Melo leading the lowly Knicks vibe to it, with a lot of potential for drama with the lack of support. The only reason it fairs better, is because Durant is on another level than Melo and they have decent PG play from Teague. But this team can just as easily miss the boat come playoff time.

Cleveland Cavaliers at Orlando Magic

Cleveland Cavaliers

G: Jeff Teague /Jameer Nelson
G: Tyler Johnson / Marco Belinelli / Jordan McRae
F: Kevin Durant / Joe Harris / Mike Scott
F: Terrence Jones / David Lee
C: Mason Plumlee / Ivica Zubac

Orlando Magic

Russ - Rivers - Tyus - Udrih
Young - Snell
Barnes - Tolliver- Luwawu
Anderson - Allen - Nicholson
Chandler - Okafor - Mi Plumlee

WINNER - Orlando Magic (4-1)

Russell Westbrook’s revenge.
Not only do you have the WB/KD dynamic, you can throw-in the HB/KD dynamic as well (given KD taking HB’s spot on the W’s). While I don’t believe HB has the alpha-mindset to actually take win this matchup, he is having an excellent year and is talented enough on both sides of the ball to at least stay with him. This Magic ballclub is a perfectly constructed roster and Westbrook will absolutely abuse the Cavs in penetration with their lack of rim-protection. Terrance Jones is really their only shot-altering threat at the rim and he will have his hands full staying at home with Ryno, camping out behind the line. The Magic have a distinct rebounding advantage and are the more physical of the two. I see Westbrook going HAM this series, which won’t be much of a series from the jump. I can see the Cavs steal a game if Westbrook has an off-night, or in a close game that KD takes over down the stretch…but they don’t have the pieces to make the necessary adjustments to win a best of 7 game series.

[Smash3]

Denver vs Mavs will be one of the better series so far

[Greenie]

FWIW, this is what I submitted to bish for the actual judging portion...

Hmmm
Understood, but I will ask this;
Can a team with no second option on offense win 62 games? In the sim my team won the east and had a top 10 offense and defense.

Teams like that usually don't get bounced by the 8th seed.

That's all.

I actually had this matchup pegged as the 4/5 matchup in my regular season rankings.

My problem wasn't just a secondary scorer, in fact, I think the inconsistencies in your playmaking was even more the issue. I love Brogdon and was begging for Phil to acquire a late 1st/early 2nd for him, but he is not capable at this point in his career to be a primary facilitator and running a consistent/efficient offense.

As I stated, Simmons changes the whole dynamic of your roster...but we had nothing to go off of and had to assume minutes restrictions, how the injury affects his play and possibility of re-injury. This series was judged before he was even ruled out for the remainder of the season.

But Swiss....
I'm talking about the sim. Only the sim.
Not the BAT judges decisions. That's up to you guys.

[Mecca]

FWIW, this is what I submitted to bish for the actual judging portion...

Hmmm
Understood, but I will ask this;
Can a team with no second option on offense win 62 games? In the sim my team won the east and had a top 10 offense and defense.

Teams like that usually don't get bounced by the 8th seed.

That's all.

I actually had this matchup pegged as the 4/5 matchup in my regular season rankings.

My problem wasn't just a secondary scorer, in fact, I think the inconsistencies in your playmaking was even more the issue. I love Brogdon and was begging for Phil to acquire a late 1st/early 2nd for him, but he is not capable at this point in his career to be a primary facilitator and running a consistent/efficient offense.

As I stated, Simmons changes the whole dynamic of your roster...but we had nothing to go off of and had to assume minutes restrictions, how the injury affects his play and possibility of re-injury. This series was judged before he was even ruled out for the remainder of the season.

You put 110% into this. I respect that.

Edit: I meant to quote the post on my playoff matchup

[swisscheeseD]

You put 110% into this. I respect that.

Thanks man. I know that the judging isn't the perfect measure to determine a winner, while we try our best to be objective, it is still subjective no matter how much you slice it. I tried my best to be fair and articulate my concerns as best I could. I know there are many players who get crushed on these boards, but didn't hold that against them, understanding that if they are in the right position, in the right role, surrounded by the right players, they could potentially be looked at in a better light as well.

Here's my initial ranking of your Lakers...

6. Los Angeles Lakers – Really underrated “Big 3”; just entering their prime, extremely talented offensively and no slouches on the defensive end. Big fan of Larry Nance, but not for the Starting Lineup of a team with aspirations to go deep into the playoffs. I understand the nature of BAT, how difficult it is to build a “perfect” roster and Nance is starter by default, but he’s best utilized at this point in his career as a plus energy big off the bench for a playoff team. Dieng is an interesting piece. He’s certainly improved his rim protection numbers and opens up the floor offensively. I think David West can have a nice impact on him and is a great veteran presence in the clubhouse. Where I differ in opinion in terms of the write-up presented to me is calling this bench “elite”, simply because they are basically the Warriors bench…forgetting just how elite their SL is while lacking their benches' best player, and no, Oubre is not comparable to 2017 Iguodala. McGee has resurrected his career, even before signing on with Golden St. since his time in Dallas, so I have no issues there. He must step up and play big minutes in an expanded role if you don’t want to get killed on the boards.

[Mecca]

You put 110% into this. I respect that.

Thanks man. I know that the judging isn't the perfect measure to determine a winner, while we try our best to be objective, it is still subjective no matter how much you slice it. I tried my best to be fair and articulate my concerns as best I could. I know there are many players who get crushed on these boards, but didn't hold that against them, understanding that if they are in the right position, in the right role, surrounded by the right players, they could potentially be looked at in a better light as well.

Here's my initial ranking of your Lakers...

6. Los Angeles Lakers – Really underrated “Big 3”; just entering their prime, extremely talented offensively and no slouches on the defensive end. Big fan of Larry Nance, but not for the Starting Lineup of a team with aspirations to go deep into the playoffs. I understand the nature of BAT, how difficult it is to build a “perfect” roster and Nance is starter by default, but he’s best utilized at this point in his career as a plus energy big off the bench for a playoff team. Dieng is an interesting piece. He’s certainly improved his rim protection numbers and opens up the floor offensively. I think David West can have a nice impact on him and is a great veteran presence in the clubhouse. Where I differ in opinion in terms of the write-up presented to me is calling this bench “elite”, simply because they are basically the Warriors bench…forgetting just how elite their SL is while lacking their benches' best player, and no, Oubre is not comparable to 2017 Iguodala. McGee has resurrected his career, even before signing on with Golden St. since his time in Dallas, so I have no issues there. He must step up and play big minutes in an expanded role if you don’t want to get killed on the boards.

Yeah, that's a fair and honest writeup that I can agree with and respect. I'm in the minority, but I prefer the judging method as long as we have high quality judges, which we did this time around. Getting insight from an outsider POV without bias is intriguing. Thank you for the work you put into this, swiss.

Only thing I would add is that I kept Nance's minutes low, despite starting, with Otto getting time at the 4. Other than that I'd agree with essentially everything you wrote.

[El Poochio]

BATGER BOMBZZZZZ THEY ARE FINGER LCKING GOOOOOD

https://streamable.com/i7t7

Still waiting for my Moonlight moment

Lol at anyone who takes that sim seriously it doesnt even include this year's performances and production even 2k sim is much better at least it updates player ratings and players have characters, tendencies.. Ben Simmons winning ROY and 6MOTY he is not even gonna play a real life single minute this year lmao

[JustCame]

Hmmm
Understood, but I will ask this;
Can a team with no second option on offense win 62 games? In the sim my team won the east and had a top 10 offense and defense.

Teams like that usually don't get bounced by the 8th seed.

That's all.

Giving any credibility to a one year video game sim is a joke, right?

IT/Dray (for comparison: easily as good as Lowry/George) is elite by itself, then add Brook (who was an all-star in the sim lol), and I wouldn't be questioning the loss too much.

[br7knicks]

Hmmm
Understood, but I will ask this;
Can a team with no second option on offense win 62 games? In the sim my team won the east and had a top 10 offense and defense.

Teams like that usually don't get bounced by the 8th seed.

That's all.

I actually had this matchup pegged as the 4/5 matchup in my regular season rankings.

My problem wasn't just a secondary scorer, in fact, I think the inconsistencies in your playmaking was even more the issue. I love Brogdon and was begging for Phil to acquire a late 1st/early 2nd for him, but he is not capable at this point in his career to be a primary facilitator and running a consistent/efficient offense.

As I stated, Simmons changes the whole dynamic of your roster...but we had nothing to go off of and had to assume minutes restrictions, how the injury affects his play and possibility of re-injury. This series was judged before he was even ruled out for the remainder of the season.

But Swiss....
I'm talking about the sim. Only the sim.
Not the BAT judges decisions. That's up to you guys.

I'm not sure. Like I said, I wish I had known, I would've gone back and found out. Sorry greenie. Usually the sim prefers defense over offense, which is my guess as to why you won so many games. But there are first round upsets in the real NBA. I wouldn't have expected it to your team though. I had you in ECF

[Smash3]

Hmmm
Understood, but I will ask this;
Can a team with no second option on offense win 62 games? In the sim my team won the east and had a top 10 offense and defense.

Teams like that usually don't get bounced by the 8th seed.

That's all.

Giving any credibility to a one year video game sim is a joke, right?

IT/Dray (for comparison: easily as good as Lowry/George) is elite by itself, then add Brook (who was an all-star in the sim lol), and I wouldn't be questioning the loss too much.

Whoah there... You have an elite role player and a lesser Lowry... In no universe are they easily as good as the PG13/Lowry duo

[IllmaticHandler]

not THE PG13/Lowry duo

[JustCame]

Hmmm
Understood, but I will ask this;
Can a team with no second option on offense win 62 games? In the sim my team won the east and had a top 10 offense and defense.

Teams like that usually don't get bounced by the 8th seed.

That's all.

Giving any credibility to a one year video game sim is a joke, right?

IT/Dray (for comparison: easily as good as Lowry/George) is elite by itself, then add Brook (who was an all-star in the sim lol), and I wouldn't be questioning the loss too much.

Whoah there... You have an elite role player and a lesser Lowry... In no universe are they easily as good as the PG13/Lowry duo

IT and Dray fit better. IT is a better scorer than Lowry. IT overall is not far off Westbrook and Harden in terms of offensive impact. Dray is a better playmaker than George. Dray is the best defender in the league. See what I'm getting at here? I think in this universe and our relative timeline they are easily as good of a duo.