Political Roundtable Part XIII

Wizardspride · Post #501 » by **Wizardspride** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 4:12 am

Wizardspride · Post #502 » by **Wizardspride** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 4:20 am

WASHINGTON — In the Obama administration’s last days, some White House officials scrambled to spread information about Russian efforts to undermine the presidential election — and about possible contacts between associates of President-elect Donald J. Trump and Russians — across the government. Former American officials say they had two aims: to ensure that such meddling isn’t duplicated in future American or European elections, and to leave a clear trail of intelligence for government investigators.

American allies, including the British and the Dutch, had provided information describing meetings in European cities between Russian officials — and others close to Russia’s president, Vladimir V. Putin — and associates of President-elect Trump, according to three former American officials who requested anonymity in discussing classified intelligence.

Separately, American intelligence agencies had intercepted communications of Russian officials, some of them within the Kremlin, discussing contacts with Trump associates.

Wizardspride · Post #503 » by **Wizardspride** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 12:08 pm

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Wizardspride · Post #504 » by **Wizardspride** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 12:09 pm

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Wizardspride · Post #505 » by **Wizardspride** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 12:53 pm

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Wizardspride · Post #506 » by **Wizardspride** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 1:09 pm

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dckingsfan · Post #507 » by **dckingsfan** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 1:14 pm

Wizardspride wrote:

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Because ALL politicians lie...

sfam · Post #508 » by **sfam** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 1:52 pm

I just don't get it. Why the F would anyone put up with Russian intervention? For as long as we've all been alive, Russia has been the bad guy - still is if you think murdering journalists, opposition leaders and ethnic minorities. How is it that so many people on Trump's campaign bought into this craziness? Jeff frickin Beauregard Sessions III lies about this under oath??? Why do racists like Jeff Sessions have affinity with the Russians now?

sfam · Post #509 » by **sfam** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 1:58 pm

How normal is it for members of the Armed Services Committee to meet with Russian Ambassadors?

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Apparently Jeff Beauregard Sessions meets with them both at campaign events and in the Senate. But how dare we suggest they are hiding something!!!!

sfam · Post #510 » by **sfam** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 2:06 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:

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Because ALL politicians lie...

But they lie with purpose. What's the purpose of the lies? The list is growing long as is the credibility gap. There is definitely smoke billowing at this point.

dckingsfan · Post #511 » by **dckingsfan** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 2:11 pm

sfam wrote:I just don't get it. Why the F would anyone put up with Russian intervention? For as long as we've all been alive, Russia has been the bad guy - still is if you think murdering journalists, opposition leaders and ethnic minorities. How is it that so many people on Trump's campaign bought into this craziness? Jeff frickin Beauregard Sessions III lies about this under oath??? Why do racists like Jeff Sessions have affinity with the Russians now?

Just think for a minute. There are lots of folks in the US that want to become more isolationist (I explained this earlier - we have had 3 straight Administrations that have struggled mightily with our foreign policy). They don't want the US to be the worlds police and have to enforce the world order. They don't want us to have a large immigrant influx. They want more defense spending but not abroad.

I am a globalist. I think trade (that has lifted 1B out of poverty) is good. But we have to understand that not everyone agrees.

sfam · Post #512 » by **sfam** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 2:13 pm

The Travel Ban, which is absolutely urgent for national security, is apparently being delayed so the majesty of the President's speech can breathe for another day. Urgent indeed!

sfam · Post #513 » by **sfam** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 2:15 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
sfam wrote:I just don't get it. Why the F would anyone put up with Russian intervention? For as long as we've all been alive, Russia has been the bad guy - still is if you think murdering journalists, opposition leaders and ethnic minorities. How is it that so many people on Trump's campaign bought into this craziness? Jeff frickin Beauregard Sessions III lies about this under oath??? Why do racists like Jeff Sessions have affinity with the Russians now?

Just think for a minute. There are lots of folks in the US that want to become more isolationist (I explained this earlier - we have had 3 straight Administrations that have struggled mightily with our foreign policy). They don't want the US to be the worlds police and have to enforce the world order. They don't want us to have a large immigrant influx. They want more defense spending but not abroad.

I am a globalist. I think trade (that has lifted 1B out of poverty) is good. But we have to understand that not everyone agrees.

That's a good point. If you're isolationist, you don't mind Russia "taking over the ISIS fight" - nevermind that Russia isn't bombing ISIS targets. Its still pretty strange though. It really has a feeling like the US has joined the Bond villains or something.

dckingsfan · Post #514 » by **dckingsfan** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 2:22 pm

sfam wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
sfam wrote:I just don't get it. Why the F would anyone put up with Russian intervention? For as long as we've all been alive, Russia has been the bad guy - still is if you think murdering journalists, opposition leaders and ethnic minorities. How is it that so many people on Trump's campaign bought into this craziness? Jeff frickin Beauregard Sessions III lies about this under oath??? Why do racists like Jeff Sessions have affinity with the Russians now?

Just think for a minute. There are lots of folks in the US that want to become more isolationist (I explained this earlier - we have had 3 straight Administrations that have struggled mightily with our foreign policy). They don't want the US to be the worlds police and have to enforce the world order. They don't want us to have a large immigrant influx. They want more defense spending but not abroad.

I am a globalist. I think trade (that has lifted 1B out of poverty) is good. But we have to understand that not everyone agrees.

That's a good point. If you're isolationist, you don't mind Russia "taking over the ISIS fight" - nevermind that Russia isn't bombing ISIS targets. Its still pretty strange though. It really has a feeling like the US has joined the Bond villains or something.

If you are an isolationist, you want to get the hell out of the Middle East. Trump's message to the Israel and the Palestinians wasn't two state - it was - whatever the hell you two agree on works for me. He is trying to get out from the middle.

His choice on Syria - is go full in or get the hell out. He is choosing the latter.

His choice on Ukraine is the same.

His choice on Europe is - you guys pay for your own defense.

He is giving a big middle finger to the US is the world policeman. That we are responsible for maintaining the world order.

sfam · Post #515 » by **sfam** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 2:31 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
sfam wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Just think for a minute. There are lots of folks in the US that want to become more isolationist (I explained this earlier - we have had 3 straight Administrations that have struggled mightily with our foreign policy). They don't want the US to be the worlds police and have to enforce the world order. They don't want us to have a large immigrant influx. They want more defense spending but not abroad.

I am a globalist. I think trade (that has lifted 1B out of poverty) is good. But we have to understand that not everyone agrees.

That's a good point. If you're isolationist, you don't mind Russia "taking over the ISIS fight" - nevermind that Russia isn't bombing ISIS targets. Its still pretty strange though. It really has a feeling like the US has joined the Bond villains or something.

If you are an isolationist, you want to get the hell out of the Middle East. Trump's message to the Israel and the Palestinians wasn't two state - it was - whatever the hell you two agree on works for me. He is trying to get out from the middle.

His choice on Syria - is go full in or get the hell out. He is choosing the latter.

His choice on Ukraine is the same.

His choice on Europe is - you guys pay for your own defense.

He is giving a big middle finger to the US is the world policeman. That we are responsible for maintaining the world order.

Good analysis. I can't find fault with any of that.

sfam · Post #516 » by **sfam** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 2:32 pm

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dckingsfan · Post #517 » by **dckingsfan** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 2:44 pm

sfam wrote:Good analysis. I can't find fault with any of that.

Which really sucks, IMO. It means that the displaced isn't are problem, world order isn't our problem, global warming isn't our problem.

So, who's problem is it? And if no one takes it on - is the result good for the US?

sfam · Post #518 » by **sfam** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 3:03 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
sfam wrote:Good analysis. I can't find fault with any of that.

Which really sucks, IMO. It means that the displaced isn't are problem, world order isn't our problem, global warming isn't our problem.

So, who's problem is it? And if no one takes it on - is the result good for the US?

Sticking your head in the sand is an easy way to get your ass kicked.

Simply avoiding these global problems works just as well as avoiding colon cancer by forgetting about it. Yeah, it probably won't kill you for a few years, but it probably isn't going to get better on its own. The extreme likelihood is the US removing themselves from a player on the international stage will increase instability, and increase the ultimate costs of the recovery.

I_Like_Dirt · Post #519 » by **I_Like_Dirt** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 3:30 pm

dckingsfan wrote:Just think for a minute. There are lots of folks in the US that want to become more isolationist (I explained this earlier - we have had 3 straight Administrations that have struggled mightily with our foreign policy). They don't want the US to be the worlds police and have to enforce the world order. They don't want us to have a large immigrant influx. They want more defense spending but not abroad.

I am a globalist. I think trade (that has lifted 1B out of poverty) is good. But we have to understand that not everyone agrees.

I think, for the most part, it's even simpler than that. Russia as the enemy? Sure. But for those that think let their eyes overrule their brains, it's a white enemy. A white enemy that is cracking down on ISIS and other Arab uprisings in ways many Americans want to. They also aren't exactly the most tolerant overall society of visible minorities, once again, not exactly dissimilar to the views held by those same Americans. So yeah, historical enemy, but not the logical one based on their own values, and given that those overarching similarities, it makes a lot of sense that they would rather look past historical differences and try to work together.

True story, the word for anyone of African descent in Russian is "Nigr." The most common defense of said terminology, if you ever ask, is that they don't have racism in Russia the same way they do in the US and it's more of a term of endearment. And it's a rather common viewpoint, too. In my time living there, I never bothered to point out the obvious racism that still exists today, like this wholesome family event, or a nice sweet treat for the children.

sfam · Post #520 » by **sfam** » Thu Mar 2, 2017 3:34 pm

Obama took his job very seriously when he was putting soldiers in harms way, Trump not so much.

In either case, the brisk treatment of a high-risk operation stands in contrast to similar deliberations during the Obama administration, known for its extensive litigation of risks in military activities and tight control of tactical decision-making.

“In previous operations like this, we would sit around the table for two hours and scrub everything. The intelligence agencies would put down maps. We’d have congressional folks talk about reaching out to Congress. The State Department would do its political assessment,” Kahl said. “You can’t cover the complexity of a topic like that in 23 minutes.”

Trump is now talking about shifting responsibilities to the Generals for targets outside of a theater of operations. Given Trump's lack of attention to detail, this is probably a good idea. If he's not planning to review things in a serious way, there is no reason to be in the decision loop.