Game 61: New York Knicks (24-36) @ Orlando Magic (22-38) - 7:00 PM ET

[cedric76]

For the Tankers, this is your game of the year. Orlando probably clinched 4th worst in this game, meaning no worse than the overall6th pick.

21 more games to play an we clinched a spot lol

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[trebone]

I cant for the life of me understand why I am still watching these games....

[Audi]

Still cannot get over the massive amount of Knicks fans in our building chanting like that. Shows how apathetic our fanbase has become.

- 90% of it is the Amway Center. It's so friggin quiet - probably due to the design and acoustics. Back in the Orena/TD Waterhouse/Amway Arena days you wouldn't hear that ish. You'd also miss a quarter of the game waiting in line to take a whizz, so it's a trade off lol.

[RickB-Orlando]

Ah yes, that sleepwalking foul trouble. Drats.

I swear Elfrid is the only one that can't have a bad game and it not be called a bad game, it's always effort based even though I bet you clearly cannot name a play he gave up on. You can say Derrick Rose had a good game so his defense wasn't good, but you can't tell me how many he scored on Elfrid vs Augustin and what plays were his fault defensively vs the switch man or the big, because people have lazy opinions on this forum.

4 assists in 21 minutes was our leading assist man and he didn't even have a good game in that area. I think that speaks volumes that our team in general is not very effective in passing. We don't hit the open men quick enough, and when we do we miss wide open shots so it seems fruitless and then people think they need to go 1vs3.

I really want some of these guys to come to your jobs and say you aren't trying.

The problem is this team lives and dies by Elf having a strong game versus a weak game.

I've said it before, the reason people get frustrated with Elf is he *has shown repeatedly* that he has the talent to put a team on his back and carry it to victory. The fact that he only shows that sort of game every three or four efforts is immensely frustrating to the fans.

Do people not see that Elfrid is simply doing what Vogel wants and giving the ball up in the half court to other players and hanging back? When he has strong games is when the team is getting out in transition, because THAT is the only time we give Elfrid the freedom to be the playmaker.

I'm sorry, but I don't accept the 'when Elf has a bad game, its Vogel's fault,' theory. Do people really believe that Vogel *wants* him to play passively? For what reason? If that's the case, when he's playing a transition game, if that isn't what Vogel wants, why isn't he getting pulled, so his stats stay low and Vogel can pump up Augustine or Watson?

If he played at full speed, at his potential, he wouldn't get yanked early and only play 22 minutes in a game.

When he's disengaged, its pretty easy to see, and suddenly DJ plays a bundle of minutes.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Unless you are happy when we lose because tanking gets you excited, this was a really pathetic loss. I'm sure the Knicks didn't care about winning and yet had no problem killing us on our home court even though we were rested.

I don't think Elf will be here next year. Too many games like this where he just sleep-walks. And not just on offense. Opposing PG's torch us every game and tonight was no different.

No sir. Tanking doesn't getting me excited get the high draft pick because we tank is what gets me excited. get it right

[Blue_and_Whte]

The problem is this team lives and dies by Elf having a strong game versus a weak game.

I've said it before, the reason people get frustrated with Elf is he *has shown repeatedly* that he has the talent to put a team on his back and carry it to victory. The fact that he only shows that sort of game every three or four efforts is immensely frustrating to the fans.

Do people not see that Elfrid is simply doing what Vogel wants and giving the ball up in the half court to other players and hanging back? When he has strong games is when the team is getting out in transition, because THAT is the only time we give Elfrid the freedom to be the playmaker.

I'm sorry, but I don't accept the 'when Elf has a bad game, its Vogel's fault,' theory. Do people really believe that Vogel *wants* him to play passively? For what reason? If that's the case, when he's playing a transition game, if that isn't what Vogel wants, why isn't he getting pulled, so his stats stay low and Vogel can pump up Augustine or Watson?

If he played at full speed, at his potential, he wouldn't get yanked early and only play 22 minutes in a game.

When he's disengaged, its pretty easy to see, and suddenly DJ plays a bundle of minutes.

Vogel wants Payton to play bad, Fournier dunking on Porzingis was "selfish", Terrance Ross is the next Tmac..Some people in this board are losing their damn minds.

[Bensational]

I disagree that he needs to go, I just think we have to recognize what he is, and what he isn't.

He's a solid number two or number three scorer. He's a guy we should not feature, but instead rely on him to get half or more of hisd looks off offensive rebounds. He needs to play the kind of plus defense he's been playing, rebound defensively, and stay out of the way when our number one scorer (who we don't have yet, apparently) drives the hoop. He needs to be awake and aware so when that happens, and the cutter needs to dish outside, he's there to receive that pass and pop it in.

Just don't feature him too much. As a secondary or tertiary option, he will flourish.

That's the only reason why I think he needs to go, is because his talent is just good enough to be too much of a temptation for the coaches. It's a bit like Jeff Green's presence - Vogel just can't help himself. Similar things could be said about Fournier.

I actually like watching Vuc play these days. Even in the NYK game, he was giving great effort on defense chasing Porzingis to the 3pt line and still trying to help the others.

I would just prefer to channel our shots and touches more into other guys right now. AG has been underwhelming this season but he's still got at least 2 more years before I consider him closer to a finished product (skill set wise). Elf does well when handed the keys to the offense. Mario is looking MUCH better lately. And then we've got Ross. I'd happily watch Vuc play 3rd/4th option to those guys, or even 2nd option if he could play closer to the rim like he did against Portland, but his game is trending away from that.

I'm concerned that even if we lucked into landing Fultz/Ball/Jackson, would coach have the balls to demand Vuc play off them? Would Vuc embrace that? (I'd suspect he would, to be honest. His passing doesn't reflect any kind of bias).

I'm just ready for some big changes to the team. I know that the moment things start clicking we'd wish we had a guy like Vuc, but I'd prefer to get the rest of the foundation in place first.

[MagicStarwipe]

The problem is this team lives and dies by Elf having a strong game versus a weak game.

I've said it before, the reason people get frustrated with Elf is he *has shown repeatedly* that he has the talent to put a team on his back and carry it to victory. The fact that he only shows that sort of game every three or four efforts is immensely frustrating to the fans.

Do people not see that Elfrid is simply doing what Vogel wants and giving the ball up in the half court to other players and hanging back? When he has strong games is when the team is getting out in transition, because THAT is the only time we give Elfrid the freedom to be the playmaker.

I'm sorry, but I don't accept the 'when Elf has a bad game, its Vogel's fault,' theory. Do people really believe that Vogel *wants* him to play passively? For what reason? If that's the case, when he's playing a transition game, if that isn't what Vogel wants, why isn't he getting pulled, so his stats stay low and Vogel can pump up Augustine or Watson?

If he played at full speed, at his potential, he wouldn't get yanked early and only play 22 minutes in a game.

When he's disengaged, its pretty easy to see, and suddenly DJ plays a bundle of minutes.

Well obviously you can't run the whole game. When we're not running his responsibility is to get the ball to Fournier and Vucevic and have them two play off each other. It's just the way it is.

[RickB-Orlando]

I disagree that he needs to go, I just think we have to recognize what he is, and what he isn't.

He's a solid number two or number three scorer. He's a guy we should not feature, but instead rely on him to get half or more of hisd looks off offensive rebounds. He needs to play the kind of plus defense he's been playing, rebound defensively, and stay out of the way when our number one scorer (who we don't have yet, apparently) drives the hoop. He needs to be awake and aware so when that happens, and the cutter needs to dish outside, he's there to receive that pass and pop it in.

Just don't feature him too much. As a secondary or tertiary option, he will flourish.

That's the only reason why I think he needs to go, is because his talent is just good enough to be too much of a temptation for the coaches. It's a bit like Jeff Green's presence - Vogel just can't help himself. Similar things could be said about Fournier.

I actually like watching Vuc play these days. Even in the NYK game, he was giving great effort on defense chasing Porzingis to the 3pt line and still trying to help the others.

I would just prefer to channel our shots and touches more into other guys right now. AG has been underwhelming this season but he's still got at least 2 more years before I consider him closer to a finished product (skill set wise). Elf does well when handed the keys to the offense. Mario is looking MUCH better lately. And then we've got Ross. I'd happily watch Vuc play 3rd/4th option to those guys, or even 2nd option if he could play closer to the rim like he did against Portland, but his game is trending away from that.

I'm concerned that even if we lucked into landing Fultz/Ball/Jackson, would coach have the balls to demand Vuc play off them? Would Vuc embrace that? (I'd suspect he would, to be honest. His passing doesn't reflect any kind of bias).

I'm just ready for some big changes to the team. I know that the moment things start clicking we'd wish we had a guy like Vuc, but I'd prefer to get the rest of the foundation in place first.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I can't see trading him just because he's a 'pretty good' player on a bad team, so the coaches lean on him too much.

I do agree that his excellent passing is evidence that he would step back for the good of the team. Clearly he ants to start, but I've never gotten the impression that he's not a team player.

I just ant see trading him because he's too much of a temptation for the coach - that's on Vogel to adjust, not Vouch.

[RickB-Orlando]

Do people not see that Elfrid is simply doing what Vogel wants and giving the ball up in the half court to other players and hanging back? When he has strong games is when the team is getting out in transition, because THAT is the only time we give Elfrid the freedom to be the playmaker.

I'm sorry, but I don't accept the 'when Elf has a bad game, its Vogel's fault,' theory. Do people really believe that Vogel *wants* him to play passively? For what reason? If that's the case, when he's playing a transition game, if that isn't what Vogel wants, why isn't he getting pulled, so his stats stay low and Vogel can pump up Augustine or Watson?

If he played at full speed, at his potential, he wouldn't get yanked early and only play 22 minutes in a game.

When he's disengaged, its pretty easy to see, and suddenly DJ plays a bundle of minutes.

Well obviously you can't run the whole game. When we're not running his responsibility is to get the ball to Fournier and Vucevic and have them two play off each other. It's just the way it is.

The guy is what, 23? And a professional athlete. When I was 23 I ran all day and drank all night.

He should be able to run for 30 minutes three nights per week.