1991-92 Michael Jordan Shot Chart

[Colbinii]

this is absurd but i don't like to cherry pick certain sample and then be accused of having an agenda like people do...52% is still so far above anything i've ever seen ...i wonder how known lebron stans like quotatious colbinii trex_8063 misterhibachi pauliewall and slowpaced oh and don't forget juleswinnfield would try to spin this ....i'Ve seen them at one time or another try to make the claim that lebron was as clutch as mj

Go to NBA.com, find clutch stats, and look at LeBron in 09 and 10.

Although, the person who calculated those stats in 2009 and 2010 was a biased LeBron Homer!!

why only 09-10 i already mentioned above how much disdain i have for people who use a specific sample size to fit their agenda first thing you know the usual suspect do just that

So using 90-92 with MJ isn't a specific sample size, but when using a small sample size for LeBron it is a specific sample size?...

[juice4080]

Go to NBA.com, find clutch stats, and look at LeBron in 09 and 10.

Although, the person who calculated those stats in 2009 and 2010 was a biased LeBron Homer!!

why only 09-10 i already mentioned above how much disdain i have for people who use a specific sample size to fit their agenda first thing you know the usual suspect do just that

So using 90-92 with MJ isn't a specific sample size, but when using a small sample size for LeBron it is a specific sample size?...

it's the same thing and i replied to dipper that i wasn't a fan of cherry picking stats...did you read my post

[Colbinii]

why only 09-10 i already mentioned above how much disdain i have for people who use a specific sample size to fit their agenda first thing you know the usual suspect do just that

So using 90-92 with MJ isn't a specific sample size, but when using a small sample size for LeBron it is a specific sample size?...

it's the same thing and i replied to dipper that i wasn't a fan of cherry picking stats...did you read my post

How is it cherry picking? I am picking years where LeBron was at his athletic peak? I am picking those years because of that, not because they are his best clutch seasons. They just happen to be his best clutch seasons.

[juice4080]

So using 90-92 with MJ isn't a specific sample size, but when using a small sample size for LeBron it is a specific sample size?...

it's the same thing and i replied to dipper that i wasn't a fan of cherry picking stats...did you read my post

How is it cherry picking? I am picking years where LeBron was at his athletic peak? I am picking those years because of that, not because they are his best clutch seasons. They just happen to be his best clutch seasons.

it's picking it's absolute best sample in order to paint him in the best light possible very disingenuous thing to do...why does it make more sense to pick those 2 seasons instead of his whole body of work to get the clearest picture possible...i'll give you an hint (because otherwise he doesn't stack up)

[Colbinii]

it's the same thing and i replied to dipper that i wasn't a fan of cherry picking stats...did you read my post

How is it cherry picking? I am picking years where LeBron was at his athletic peak? I am picking those years because of that, not because they are his best clutch seasons. They just happen to be his best clutch seasons.

it's picking it's absolute best sample in order to paint him in the best light possible very disingenuous thing to do...why does it make more sense to pick those 2 seasons instead of his whole body of work to get the clearest picture possible...i'll give you an hint (because otherwise he doesn't stack up)

I will post the rest of his prime seasons when I get off work, but I am sure you will come crying about "not picking 19 year old LeBron" or some shenanigans on that low of a level.

[PaulieWal]

Self-delete.

[juice4080]

i'll save you some work

Michael Jordan FG% 52% 166/319 TS% 62%
Lebron James FG% 42.12% 115/273 TS% 54.1%

No matter how you slice it it's not close pal but i can't wait to see which creative spin doctoring job you will come up with

[Colbinii]

i'll save you some work

Michael Jordan FG% 52% 166/319 TS% 62%
Lebron James FG% 42.12% 115/273 TS% 54.1%

No matter how you slice it it's not close pal but i can't wait to see which creative spin doctoring job you will come up with

What about things besides scoring? There is a major problem with free throws in clutch stats as well, something that is likely above your head.

[Colbinii]

i'll save you some work

Michael Jordan FG% 52% 166/319 TS% 62%
Lebron James FG% 42.12% 115/273 TS% 54.1%

No matter how you slice it it's not close pal but i can't wait to see which creative spin doctoring job you will come up with

Here are the results I collected from 08-17 (what I consider LeBron's PRIME) Regular Season PER 48:

49.3 Points, 15/32 shooting, 47 FG%, 3.4/10 3P shooting, 34% 3P%, 16/20.4 FT shooting, 79% FT%, 12.9 Rebounds, 8.7 Assists, 4.1 Turnovers, +24.3

Here are the results for Jordan for the post-season:

Plus/Minus total: +198
Plus/Minus Per 48: +23.3

97 Games, 63 Wins, 64.9 Win%

Here are LeBron's:

Plus/Minus total: +171
Plus/Minus per 48: +19.1

105 games, 67 wins, 63.8 Win%

Awfully close stuff

Jordan's Statistics:

LeBron's Statistics

Minutes: 430
Points: 391
FGM: 115
FGA: 273
3PM: 30
3PA: 80
FTM: 129
FTA: 167
Reb: 93
AST: 70
TOV: 44

The biggest takeaway I can see is that Jordan is clearly a better scorer, but that isn't a surprise to anyone. LeBron's argument for being a top 3 player of all-time isn't because of his scoring, but his all-around game. His Net +/-, along with his W/L record is VERY similar to Jordan's. We will see how it pans out as LeBron is currently looking like he will add another prime or two season to his resume. It would be nice to calculate the defenses faced during these seasons, but it is too late right now for me to do such a task.

[Drylick]

52% on clutch shots? this can't be true? he basically got more efficient in clutch situations while most players get worse?

this is mindboggling to read

Yes, also from 1990-92 in the playoffs (24 Games) he shot 62.2% on clutch shots, despite enormous volume.

Oh my god. There's really no one fitting to be called the GOAT.

[Drylick]

LeBron is a better clutch rebounder, assister, and 3 point shooter considering the volume. Same applies to Westbrook so far this regular season. However as an overall clutch scorer prime Jordan in the playoffs appears to be a major outlier in history.

http://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/#!?sort=GP&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Per48

This is true due to LeBron being a pass-first player when the game is on the line. He's also more positioned in the paint than MJ who's usually in the perimeter so LeBron would get more boards.

i'll save you some work

Michael Jordan FG% 52% 166/319 TS% 62%
Lebron James FG% 42.12% 115/273 TS% 54.1%

No matter how you slice it it's not close pal but i can't wait to see which creative spin doctoring job you will come up with

What about things besides scoring? There is a major problem with free throws in clutch stats as well, something that is likely above your head.

LeBron's greatest attribute is his all-around game. It doesn't win you the game in the clutch though. It contributes definitely, but no stat(s) could really win you the game more than scoring.

[Gregoire]

i wonder how known lebron stans like quotatious

LOL at me being a LeBron stan, if I in fact like Jordan more than LeBron (and I never said LeBron should be ranked over Michael either, so I have no idea what it's based on).

Just because I don't feel a need to prop MJ up in every comparison like JB does, doesn't mean I'm not a fan.

I think its because If I clearly remember you have Lebron at GOAT peak, while its not popular opinion and MJs peak is here practically concensus GOAT.

[Mazter]

LeBron's greatest attribute is his all-around game. It doesn't win you the game in the clutch though. It contributes definitely, but no stat(s) could really win you the game more than scoring.

Well, in the end, the team needs to win or outscore the opponent. In example, what good would it be for a player to go 4-for-6 on one end, but on the other end the opponent scores 8-from-10 due to his lack of energy at the defensive end. Would he be more clutch than another player shooting 1-for-4 with 2 assists, 3 rebounds, forcing a couple of turnovers and locking down the opponent's clutch player forcing the opposing team to shoot just 2-from-7?

[juice4080]

i'll save you some work

Michael Jordan FG% 52% 166/319 TS% 62%
Lebron James FG% 42.12% 115/273 TS% 54.1%

No matter how you slice it it's not close pal but i can't wait to see which creative spin doctoring job you will come up with

What about things besides scoring? There is a major problem with free throws in clutch stats as well, something that is likely above your head.

I love how you pull the there's other thing besides scoring card when convenient...but when we discuss about bill russell or a guy like draymond green currently now all of a sudden it's the "oh he's not a first option" or the "he's not a good scorer"...it's impossible to have a reasonable debate with you...never seen you admit you were wrong...goalpost are always moving.....but you are right there's other things besides scoring,passing,rebounding and defending....taking care of the ball!

[Colbinii]

i'll save you some work

Michael Jordan FG% 52% 166/319 TS% 62%
Lebron James FG% 42.12% 115/273 TS% 54.1%

No matter how you slice it it's not close pal but i can't wait to see which creative spin doctoring job you will come up with

What about things besides scoring? There is a major problem with free throws in clutch stats as well, something that is likely above your head.

I love how you pull the there's other thing besides scoring card when convenient...but when we discuss about bill russell or a guy like draymond green currently now all of a sudden it's the "oh he's not a first option" or the "he's not a good scorer"...it's impossible to have a reasonable debate with you...never seen you admit you were wrong...goalpost are always moving.....but you are right there's other things besides scoring,passing,rebounding and defending....taking care of the ball!

What? Are you serious or trolling?

Go read the Draymond Green versus Paul Pierce thread right now if you don't think I like Draymond Green. I made a long post last night stating that I think Green IS better than Prime Pierce, so obviously I don't value volume scoring that much. I also have Kevin Garnett in my top 10, another player who wasn't a great volume scorer.

At this point, you are just spinning in circles with your posts with no substance and it seems like you are making stuff up.

[Colbinii]

LeBron is a better clutch rebounder, assister, and 3 point shooter considering the volume. Same applies to Westbrook so far this regular season. However as an overall clutch scorer prime Jordan in the playoffs appears to be a major outlier in history.

http://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/#!?sort=GP&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Per48

This is true due to LeBron being a pass-first player when the game is on the line. He's also more positioned in the paint than MJ who's usually in the perimeter so LeBron would get more boards.

i'll save you some work

Michael Jordan FG% 52% 166/319 TS% 62%
Lebron James FG% 42.12% 115/273 TS% 54.1%

No matter how you slice it it's not close pal but i can't wait to see which creative spin doctoring job you will come up with

What about things besides scoring? There is a major problem with free throws in clutch stats as well, something that is likely above your head.

LeBron's greatest attribute is his all-around game. It doesn't win you the game in the clutch though. It contributes definitely, but no stat(s) could really win you the game more than scoring.

But I just posted stats stating LeBrons team had a 63% win percentage in the postseason in close games while Jordans had 64%. Clearly LeBrons game is winning in the post season, and looking at the percentages, they are nearly even.

@Dipper, have you compiled these statistics for anyone else?

[juice4080]

LeBron is a better clutch rebounder, assister, and 3 point shooter considering the volume. Same applies to Westbrook so far this regular season. However as an overall clutch scorer prime Jordan in the playoffs appears to be a major outlier in history.

http://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/#!?sort=GP&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Per48

This is true due to LeBron being a pass-first player when the game is on the line. He's also more positioned in the paint than MJ who's usually in the perimeter so LeBron would get more boards.

What about things besides scoring? There is a major problem with free throws in clutch stats as well, something that is likely above your head.

LeBron's greatest attribute is his all-around game. It doesn't win you the game in the clutch though. It contributes definitely, but no stat(s) could really win you the game more than scoring.

But I just posted stats stating LeBrons team had a 63% win percentage in the postseason in close games while Jordans had 64%. Clearly LeBrons game is winning in the post season, and looking at the percentages, they are nearly even.

@Dipper, have you compiled these statistics for anyone else?

wait aren't you one of the proponents of w-l being a "team" thing? once again you're switching the goalpost

[Colbinii]

This is true due to LeBron being a pass-first player when the game is on the line. He's also more positioned in the paint than MJ who's usually in the perimeter so LeBron would get more boards.



LeBron's greatest attribute is his all-around game. It doesn't win you the game in the clutch though. It contributes definitely, but no stat(s) could really win you the game more than scoring.

But I just posted stats stating LeBrons team had a 63% win percentage in the postseason in close games while Jordans had 64%. Clearly LeBrons game is winning in the post season, and looking at the percentages, they are nearly even.

@Dipper, have you compiled these statistics for anyone else?

wait aren't you one of the proponents of w-l being a "team" thing? once again you're switching the goalpost

W-L certainly comes down to being a team thing, but clutch play is where one player is going to have the biggest footprint on a game. In another thread a poster made a strong case that MJ had better teammates based on BPM than LeBron. So, my question is, why does LeBron's team do just as well in the clutch as MJ's, despite having worse teammates? Seems like the answer is written on the wall.

No offense Juice, but your accusations of moving goalposts is getting old and tiresome. I try to give everyone on this forum the benefit of the doubt that they are civilized human beings capable of adult discussions. I like to think that everyone here is cognitive enough to discuss things at a level higher than some of the 4th grade math students that I teach on a daily basis. You seem to fall right in the minority on this sight of lacking the ability to discuss things such a level.

[ShotCreator]

Dipper, I wish you could've collected his 1992 clutch data. Good work nonetheless.

We could do something like that collectively, as realGM project. It's really a lot of work to stat track one game, not to mention several dozens, but if we would have 10-20 dedicated people we could stat track at least playoffs for major players like MJ, Hakeem or Bird. Of course it would take years and would be useful just for a bunch of people on the massage boards, but hey, what you don't do for the love of the game?

You are right. I've tried to track on/off before and it's much more difficult than I thought it would be.

But Dipper says clutch data is significantly easier, I'm willing to try. I don't know which mod would want to organize such a project, or how many would contribute but it's worth exploring.

[Colbinii]

Dipper, I wish you could've collected his 1992 clutch data. Good work nonetheless.

We could do something like that collectively, as realGM project. It's really a lot of work to stat track one game, not to mention several dozens, but if we would have 10-20 dedicated people we could stat track at least playoffs for major players like MJ, Hakeem or Bird. Of course it would take years and would be useful just for a bunch of people on the massage boards, but hey, what you don't do for the love of the game?

You are right. I've tried to track on/off before and it's much more difficult than I thought it would be.

But Dipper says clutch data is significantly easier, I'm willing to try. I don't know which mod would want to organize such a project, or how many would contribute but it's worth exploring.

I don't think it needs to be up to mods to organize, as I am sure they have enough on their plate as is. The project should be user driven.