The Steve Clifford Thread 2.0 - Off the Cliff we go

[Snidely FC]

Clifford says the problem is lack of physicality

They play at Dallas on Monday with their coach in a highly frustrated state. Physicality is hard to quantify. The Timberwolves only out-rebounded the Hornets 51-50, but Minnesota outscored Charlotte 62-44 in the paint and had more second-chance points (16-12).

“More than anything, we’ve got to hit people,” said Clifford. “We’ve got to be willing to be more physical. The reality is we are either going to become a more physical group or we’re not. But we’re not winning (playing) like this, not every night.”

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nba/charlotte-hornets/article118842823.html#storylink=cpy

[Diop]

Sounds like he needs more Diop

[Eoghan]

But they have to defend without fouling b/c foul trouble messes up his stone set rotations. Seems like a catch 22 to me.

Eoghan: It's Shake and Bake, and I helped!

[Diop]

also sounds like the perfect time for that Hansbrough fan boy to come in and promote his return

[fatlever]

save this one for future use, Clifford blasting the 2nd unit

Read on Twitter

[catch20two]

But they have to defend without fouling b/c foul trouble messes up his stone set rotations. Seems like a catch 22 to me.

Eoghan: It's Shake and Bake, and I helped!

Ricky Bobby.

[GoBobs]

Dunlap 2.0 The Steve Clifford Thread

[TinmanZBoy]

save this one for future use, Clifford blasting the 2nd unit

Read on Twitter

man! Cliff was hot...

[Snidely FC]

No Moral Victory In Trying Hard - The Steve Clifford Thread

[fatlever]

Ask certain people who cover the Hornets and they will tell you that Steve Clifford is the single biggest asset for the franchise. Nationally, almost everyone speaks very highly of Clifford. If he was available for hire this summer he would no doubt get a head coaching job, if that was his desire.

All that being said...

Is Clifford on the hot seat?

Should he be on the hot seat?

If he is not on the hot seat, what series of events would have to happen before he is on the hot seat?

I think my personal answers to those questions would be..

1. I don't think he is currently on the hot seat. I get the feeling the front office is 100% behind Clifford currently

2. Maybe a little more than he is. He no doubt has to take some responsibility for how this team has played over the past 2 months. Clifford's teams have always improved as the season progressed. This is the first year one of his teams has gotten worse. Obviously injuries have been a factor, but there is more happening with this team than just injuries. Too many nights this team has played with no urgency, defense that is unable to stop even the worst of teams in the league, league leading 4th quarter collapses, too many players having down years. Clifford has also admitted a large role in roster construction, which I am assuming means he's convinced the front office to sign/trade for players he wants. It has not worked out very well.

3. I think one (or more) of three things would have to happen before Clifford is truly on the hot seat.
- The team would have to quit on him. I don't see this happening, not with the group of guys we have on the roster. In four years under Clifford, we have yet to see a player mention a bad word about him. They all seem to love him. This is not the type that would quit on their coach.
- The team would have to continue to play as bad as they have 25% winning percentage since 12/30, in the face of still trying to make the playoffs. Lets say the team really tries to win every single game left, playing vets, giving Kemba/Batum heavy minutes and no run is made, not even after we get a decent homestand, just more baffling loses, blown leads. Maybe, the front office might decide that it's time for a new voice in the lockerroom, thinking Clifford has squeezed every ounce out of this group and it is seemingly obvious the team has reached their ceiling under Clifford. I'd be shocked this happened, but you could maybe see the logic.
- More likely, the team gives Clifford another summer, training camp, reinforcements to get the team back on track. If the team struggled again to start the season next year, say 5 games under .500 by mid-December, than I could see the team making a mid-season change in order to spark the team. This would most likely lead to Ewing being promoted to head coach for the remainder of the season. I think everyone knows how I feel about Ewing at this point, so I do not view this as a positive.

What I really believe is the front office will give Clifford one more full season after this season to get the team to the 2nd round. I think anything short of the 2nd round next year will likely lead to a new coach, for better or worse.

[LamarMatic7]

something I found interesting from my exchange with Justin on Twitter:

Read on Twitter

[Eoghan]

Ask certain people who cover the Hornets and they will tell you that Steve Clifford is the single biggest asset for the franchise. Nationally, almost everyone speaks very highly of Clifford. If he was available for hire this summer he would no doubt get a head coaching job, if that was his desire.

Disinformation campaign by the rest of the league to keep franchises like Charlotte mired by sub par coaching. He's also from the Van Gundy coaching tree so of course people are going to crow about him, even though Van Gundy ball has never really accomplished anything.

[LamarMatic7]

Ask certain people who cover the Hornets and they will tell you that Steve Clifford is the single biggest asset for the franchise. Nationally, almost everyone speaks very highly of Clifford. If he was available for hire this summer he would no doubt get a head coaching job, if that was his desire.

Disinformation campaign by the rest of the league to keep franchises like Charlotte mired by sub par coaching. He's also from the Van Gundy coaching tree so of course people are going to crow about him, even though Van Gundy ball has never really accomplished anything.

NBA Finals?

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Eh. Cliff is really good at certain things. It's been a while but I always was amazed at how much support the players have always given him. It's a great indicator of how strong he is at that part of his job.

I'm in agreement about his weakness as a system coach though. It's somewhat ironic to me given that he worked under D'Antoni in LA. That said, I've bashed him for being unable to change in the past, and he's proven me wrong. I still think that he's stubborn, but it's also become clear that he does make tweaks to his system for the players he has as the team changed over the years.

I don't see him being on the hot seat currently. Injuries have been a big part of the story this year. What I'll be most interested in is how the team treats this summer as an indicator of how much influence he has. Do they keep the pick and give Cliff another young guy or do they seek more depth and veteran help? Do they trade someone he likes such as Beli? Do they bring in a back PG who knows the system like Jameer Nelson or even Sessions, or do they go a different route?

Anyway, for Cliff to be on the hot seat I think that he would have to miss the playoffs this year (likely) and have the team perform poorly next year when healthy. The only other thing that could do it would be having key team members like Kemba turn against him and letting management know they are unhappy.

[fatlever]

Ask certain people who cover the Hornets and they will tell you that Steve Clifford is the single biggest asset for the franchise. Nationally, almost everyone speaks very highly of Clifford. If he was available for hire this summer he would no doubt get a head coaching job, if that was his desire.

Disinformation campaign by the rest of the league to keep franchises like Charlotte mired by sub par coaching. He's also from the Van Gundy coaching tree so of course people are going to crow about him, even though Van Gundy ball has never really accomplished anything.

I guess it is fair to say the Van Gundy coaching tree has not lived up to expectations this season. Detroit, Minnesota and Charlotte have all failed to meet pre-season expectations.

[TheKingofSting]

Ask certain people who cover the Hornets and they will tell you that Steve Clifford is the single biggest asset for the franchise. Nationally, almost everyone speaks very highly of Clifford. If he was available for hire this summer he would no doubt get a head coaching job, if that was his desire.

All that being said...

Is Clifford on the hot seat?

Should he be on the hot seat?

If he is not on the hot seat, what series of events would have to happen before he is on the hot seat?

I think my personal answers to those questions would be..

1. I don't think he is currently on the hot seat. I get the feeling the front office is 100% behind Clifford currently

2. Maybe a little more than he is. He no doubt has to take some responsibility for how this team has played over the past 2 months. Clifford's teams have always improved as the season progressed. This is the first year one of his teams has gotten worse. Obviously injuries have been a factor, but there is more happening with this team than just injuries. Too many nights this team has played with no urgency, defense that is unable to stop even the worst of teams in the league, league leading 4th quarter collapses, too many players having down years. Clifford has also admitted a large role in roster construction, which I am assuming means he's convinced the front office to sign/trade for players he wants. It has not worked out very well.

3. I think one (or more) of three things would have to happen before Clifford is truly on the hot seat.
- The team would have to quit on him. I don't see this happening, not with the group of guys we have on the roster. In four years under Clifford, we have yet to see a player mention a bad word about him. They all seem to love him. This is not the type that would quit on their coach.
- The team would have to continue to play as bad as they have 25% winning percentage since 12/30, in the face of still trying to make the playoffs. Lets say the team really tries to win every single game left, playing vets, giving Kemba/Batum heavy minutes and no run is made, not even after we get a decent homestand, just more baffling loses, blown leads. Maybe, the front office might decide that it's time for a new voice in the lockerroom, thinking Clifford has squeezed every ounce out of this group and it is seemingly obvious the team has reached their ceiling under Clifford. I'd be shocked this happened, but you could maybe see the logic.
- More likely, the team gives Clifford another summer, training camp, reinforcements to get the team back on track. If the team struggled again to start the season next year, say 5 games under .500 by mid-December, than I could see the team making a mid-season change in order to spark the team. This would most likely lead to Ewing being promoted to head coach for the remainder of the season. I think everyone knows how I feel about Ewing at this point, so I do not view this as a positive.

What I really believe is the front office will give Clifford one more full season after this season to get the team to the 2nd round. I think anything short of the 2nd round next year will likely lead to a new coach, for better or worse.

7-21 record in our last games, any competent owner would have this clown on the hot seat at the very least already. It is clear that this team has maxed out under Clifford but MJ doesn't care about winning any longer so we are stuck with Clifford and his mediocre teams unless losing finally takes a toll on Clifford and he steps down with honor.


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[Vanderbilt_Grad]

I don't agree that MJ doesn't care about winning.

But let me flip this. If MJ or Cho fired Cliff, what would the fallout be?

The players seem to like Cliff.
Cliff has a great rep around the league.
Charlotte's track record with coaches prior to Cliff is ... shaky ... at best.
Who would want to step into that situation?
Would a coach willing to do that be able to do better than Cliff?
While the team has a bunch of guys locked up long term might any of them start pushing to be traded after a Cliff firing?

[fatlever]

I don't agree that MJ doesn't care about winning.

But let me flip this. If MJ or Cho fired Cliff, what would the fallout be?

The players seem to like Cliff.
Cliff has a great rep around the league.
Charlotte's track record with coaches prior to Cliff is ... shaky ... at best.
Who would want to step into that situation?
Would a coach willing to do that be able to do better than Cliff?
While the team has a bunch of guys locked up long term might any of them start pushing to be traded after a Cliff firing?

Yeah, this is a good question. Cliff would get hired immediately, assuming he was ready to coach again. I have no idea who we'd target as a coach and I can't think of any obvious choices that could come in and make a big difference. Even with the best coach on the planet, what is the ceiling of this team as currently constructed? Can we maybe get 5 more wins out of this team with better coaching?

I think it really comes down to whether or not the team needs a new voice in order to get back on track. I don't think players are tuning him out, but maybe they need to hear the message delivered in a different manner.

I don't really know right now. I do know that I'm still not at the point to want a coaching change.

PS: I don't understand how KoS can say that MJ doesn't want to win. If MJ was OK with losing we'd be purposely tanking already. Nothing in MJs past or his DNA suggests he doesn't care about winning.

[TheKingofSting]

I don't agree that MJ doesn't care about winning.

But let me flip this. If MJ or Cho fired Cliff, what would the fallout be?

The players seem to like Cliff.
Cliff has a great rep around the league.
Charlotte's track record with coaches prior to Cliff is ... shaky ... at best.
Who would want to step into that situation?
Would a coach willing to do that be able to do better than Cliff?
While the team has a bunch of guys locked up long term might any of them start pushing to be traded after a Cliff firing?

Yeah, this is a good question. Cliff would get hired immediately, assuming he was ready to coach again. I have no idea who we'd target as a coach and I can't think of any obvious choices that could come in and make a big difference. Even with the best coach on the planet, what is the ceiling of this team as currently constructed? Can we maybe get 5 more wins out of this team with better coaching?

I think it really comes down to whether or not the team needs a new voice in order to get back on track. I don't think players are tuning him out, but maybe they need to hear the message delivered in a different manner.

I don't really know right now. I do know that I'm still not at the point to want a coaching change.

PS: I don't understand how KoS can say that MJ doesn't want to win. If MJ was OK with losing we'd be purposely tanking already. Nothing in MJs past or his DNA suggests he doesn't care about winning.

He cut the rebuild a year or two short by signing Big Al. We could have potentially had something big long term but he got impatient. Maybe he cares too much about winning to see long term success? I don't know but you'd think continually fighting for your playoff lives would be sickening to a winner when you could do much better. If we somehow land a top 6-7 pick this year then all will be forgiven with Cho if he just doesn't take the safe pick.



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[fatlever]

He cut the rebuild short because he couldn't stand to lose, same reason he won't allow the team to tank now. You could argue that MJ is too impatient to see thru a proper rebuild, due to his refusal to lose, and ultimately that refusal to lose impedes his ability to win in the long run. But it's not because MJ doesn't care about winning.