Jeremy Lin's Impact Discussion thread

[NyCeEvO]

All discussion of Jeremy Lin's impact should go in this thread.

Too often other threads are derailed by older Nets forum members as well as our more recent Lin fans discussing this topic.

Let me remind everyone of the purposes of each thread:

- Game threads
These are mainly for shooting the breeze and half-baked analysis of games that are played. We don't want full blown arguments over impact, who did what right or wrong, or whether Adam Silver is an alien from Men in Black. Just chill and don't take things super seriously.

If you want to have an official debate over an issue that was brought up in a game thread, create a thread and open a discussion. However, don't abuse this right. We don't want to see threads of "If Skilpatrick had LBJ-level court vision, would he be better than CP3?" Keep that stuff in your head and off the board.

- The Official Jeremy Lin threads
The original purpose of the Jeremy Lin threads was to contain all Jeremy Lin related stuff there. We recognize that there are fans who follow him on Twitter and Instagram or who see him at games and just like to talk to others about Lin. The understanding was that most of the posters in that thread would be big time Lin supporters (not that there is anything wrong with that) but at the same time we didn't want debates over how good/impactful LIn is to override general commentary on Lin. We know Lin is a popular figure and we think it's right for fans to discuss everything from the macro to the minutiae about him.

However, since it appears that people just can't seem to avoid arguing over Lin's impact, we know have....

- This thread (The Jeremy Lin's Impact Discussion thread)
This thread is for debating and arguing over Jeremy Lin's impact.

While the rules for trolling still apply (and let me repeat this...THE RULES FOR TROLLING/PERSONAL ATTACKS STILL APPLY), we're going to be more free with this thread.

- If you really want to have a debate over Lin vs Harden, have at it.
- If you believe that a healthy Lin would've led the Nets to the playoffs, let's talk about it.
- If you think Lin is still a backup PG masquerading as a starting PG, write up a detailed post and defend your position.

This is a forum and therefore with the exception of few topics, we should be able to discuss and entertain ideas even if they seem outlandish to us first. That's what healthy forums of debate do.

(Rules)
But again, we will not stand for repeated statements of uninformed ignorance or or intransigence/stubbornness when others have presented plausible counter-arguments.

If you believe someone is trolling, don't personally attack them. Report the post and move on.

If someone personally attacked you first, don't attack them back and then report it. In this instance, both parties will be banned, suspended or reprimanded.

(The mods do not have the time to read every post in every thread. Thus, we rely upon the entire Nets forum community to report violations.)

We are not partisan...OG Nets fans, don't use this thread as an opportunity to bait Lin fans and the same goes for Lin fans against OG Net fans. This is an equal opportunity board...everyone is open to be suspended.


With that out of the way, have a good day and:



RealGM Nets Forum Mods

[13th Man]

Interesting idea...... *Takes gloves off* Who wants a piece of me?

[NyCeEvO]

Interesting idea...... *Takes gloves off* Who wants a piece of me?

ME!!

[MrDollarBills]

Excellent game from Conley but Lin put the game away in the 4th. Maybe some day Conley will be able to do that.

This is embarrassing, for several reasons.

Lin has a large mountain to climb before anyone can even remote sit here and try to knock Mike Conley like that.

My response was to Prok's comment that "Lin needed a big year to be in Conley's class". My point is that Lin is already in Conley's class and is probably (hard to prove either way) more clutch than him. Certainly last night that was evident.
That's all.

No, he is not in Conley's class. Conley has years of data compiled as a starting PG. Lin does not.

The comparison is ludicrous. Lin has a ton of work to do to be mentioned in Conley's tier. How can you even quantify how clutch Lin is compared to Conley? How many playoff games has Lin competed in?

Last night was one game. Believe me, I WANT LIN to be playing to the point where people are honestly comparing him to Mike Conley, but all of this is ridiculous and baseless. Lin hasn't even been a starting PG for more than 1 season's worth of work. Lets pump the brakes, relax, and hope for Lin to continue to keep playing at a high level and staying healthy instead of trying to act insecure by downplaying one of this generation's best PGs for no reason.

[13th Man]

Agree with MDB. I think Conley is overpaid but he's put in his dues and is consistent with his numbers over many years. Lin has promise if he continues to stay healthy but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

[bws94]

This is embarrassing, for several reasons.

Lin has a large mountain to climb before anyone can even remote sit here and try to knock Mike Conley like that.

My response was to Prok's comment that "Lin needed a big year to be in Conley's class". My point is that Lin is already in Conley's class and is probably (hard to prove either way) more clutch than him. Certainly last night that was evident.
That's all.

No, he is not in Conley's class. Conley has years of data compiled as a starting PG. Lin does not.

The comparison is ludicrous. Lin has a ton of work to do to be mentioned in Conley's tier. How can you even quantify how clutch Lin is compared to Conley? How many playoff games has Lin competed in?

Last night was one game. Believe me, I WANT LIN to be playing to the point where people are honestly comparing him to Mike Conley, but all of this is ridiculous and baseless. Lin hasn't even been a starting PG for more than 1 season's worth of work. Lets pump the brakes, relax, and hope for Lin to continue to keep playing at a high level and staying healthy instead of trying to act insecure by downplaying one of this generation's best PGs for no reason.

Stay healthy. Lin is doing fine in his role as leader on the team. He has a little bit of the player/coach in him. He's getting used to being in that role.

Conley's accomplishments are on the record, he's a fine player, winning player, clutch player. Like Lillard, IT, Parker, Dragic, Kemba, a bunch of them, there are some fine PGs in the 25-31 year old range. The younger PGs don't seem to have the talent that this generation has brought. So that Lin can hold his own with these guys on some nights, and at times be a big factor in getting his team a W in some games, is a testimony to Lin's play.

[Pistolpete1947]

This is embarrassing, for several reasons.

Lin has a large mountain to climb before anyone can even remote sit here and try to knock Mike Conley like that.

My response was to Prok's comment that "Lin needed a big year to be in Conley's class". My point is that Lin is already in Conley's class and is probably (hard to prove either way) more clutch than him. Certainly last night that was evident.
That's all.

No, he is not in Conley's class. Conley has years of data compiled as a starting PG. Lin does not.

The comparison is ludicrous. Lin has a ton of work to do to be mentioned in Conley's tier. How can you even quantify how clutch Lin is compared to Conley? How many playoff games has Lin competed in?

Last night was one game. Believe me, I WANT LIN to be playing to the point where people are honestly comparing him to Mike Conley, but all of this is ridiculous and baseless. Lin hasn't even been a starting PG for more than 1 season's worth of work. Lets pump the brakes, relax, and hope for Lin to continue to keep playing at a high level and staying healthy instead of trying to act insecure by downplaying one of this generation's best PGs for no reason.

My opinion is based on facts and observation when they go head to head. His stats are almost equal to Conley's even though his playing time per game is a lot less than Conley's. If you compare them per 36 minutes then their stats are nearly identical. These are the facts. What facts do you have to say that Lin is not even in Conley's class?

You are a supporter of Lin and feel he's good but in my opinion you're still underestimating his impact on a team. There are intangibles also that come into play that go beyond stats. However the stats show they are definitely in the same "class".

[NyCeEvO]

My response was to Prok's comment that "Lin needed a big year to be in Conley's class". My point is that Lin is already in Conley's class and is probably (hard to prove either way) more clutch than him. Certainly last night that was evident.
That's all.

No, he is not in Conley's class. Conley has years of data compiled as a starting PG. Lin does not.

The comparison is ludicrous. Lin has a ton of work to do to be mentioned in Conley's tier. How can you even quantify how clutch Lin is compared to Conley? How many playoff games has Lin competed in?

Last night was one game. Believe me, I WANT LIN to be playing to the point where people are honestly comparing him to Mike Conley, but all of this is ridiculous and baseless. Lin hasn't even been a starting PG for more than 1 season's worth of work. Lets pump the brakes, relax, and hope for Lin to continue to keep playing at a high level and staying healthy instead of trying to act insecure by downplaying one of this generation's best PGs for no reason.

My opinion is based on facts and observation when they go head to head. His stats are almost equal to Conley's even though his playing time per game is a lot less than Conley's. If you compare them per 36 minutes then their stats are nearly identical. These are the facts. What facts do you have to say that Lin is not even in Conley's class?

You are a supporter of Lin and feel he's good but in my opinion you're still underestimating his impact on a team. There are intangibles also that come into play that go beyond stats. However the stats show they are definitely in the same "class".

The problem is that PER36 is a misleading statistic.

It is often used to point out players who stuff the stat sheet with little PT and it extrapolates their production in that small amount of time to an expected starter's PT.

So let's say Acy is an aggressive rebounder and he goes out and gets 5rebs in the 12mpg. PER36 he averages a ridiculous 15 rebounds. That grabs your attention and shows fans and others who may not watch people all of the time that he is a collects a lot of rebounds in the small time that he plays.

However, what often tends to happen is that people use PER36 to assume that if that same player were to play 36mpg they would be just as good as another player.

While there are a number of issues regarding the conflation of box score output with a player's true impact, more importantly this ignores the fact a player who plays 36mpg is higher on the opponent's "We have to stop this guy in order to win" list than a guy who plays 12mpg. You also have to consider the additional fatigue and the better competition that comes with being a full time starter with more minutes.

While PER36 can be used to support one's theory that a player is as good as another player, it should only be one of several arguments used to support said player in order for that theory to be considered plausible.




My personal take is that people should just let Lin play a season of games as a starter before we jump the gun in saying "He's an allstar" or "he's a backup".

There are many ebbs and flows during the season. Having ~80 games of data normalizes the variance that comes with a typical 5-10 game sample and gives us a better indication of what one can expect from him on the average night.

I can flip a quarter 10 times and get heads 8 out of 10 times. Does that mean I have faulty coin or that I should go to AC because I'm feeling that the odds are in my favor? No...as I continue to flip more, I will get closer to 50% and realize that my chances of getting heads or tails are really closer to 50/50 rather than 80/20 like I would've assumed had I just jumped to a conclusion after the first 10 flips.

Let's just watch his production over the long haul and see what happens. Either way, some people are going to have to eat crow while others are going to be able to brag about being right all along.

[Prokorov]

Agree with MDB. I think Conley is overpaid but he's put in his due and is consistent with his numbers over many years. Lin has promise if he continues to stay healthy but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

When Lin consistently plays 30 minutes per game as a starter for 1-2 seasons at the level of play we saw last night then we can put him in conleys class. until then its just not legit.

Part of what seperates average players and good players.... and good players and great players is how consistently they perform at a high level.

Conley has multiple seasons of 30+ minutes as a starter on winning teams producing at this level. that cant just be ignored. now you can certainly say lin may have deserved minutes/starting spot but until he does it that is all just speculation. you cant just assume in 82 games at 30 mpg lin will perform at a certain level cause he was able to do it in another role in lesser minutes.

Conley is also having a breakout year... and if Lin fans are being honest, if Lin was having the year conley is they would be talking about how he is a top 5 PG/Top 20 player. but since its conley the conversation moves to anectodal stuff like "lin outplayed him in the 4th or the nets won". as if a 1 game head to head sample matters (especially since no one knocked lin for 1 game vs hill).

[MrDollarBills]

Agree with MDB. I think Conley is overpaid but he's put in his dues and is consistent with his numbers over many years. Lin has promise if he continues to stay healthy but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

Totally agree with him being overpaid, but its the nature of the market so I'm not mad at him for that

[Vae Victus]

How about this, if Lin finishes the season strong, playing ~30 mins a game, putting up 20 pts, 7 ast, 3 TO, 4 rb, 1 stl, 1 blk a game, on 45/38/80 shooting and with above avg defense and helps the nets finish 9-11 (ok im only saying 9 wins cuz i got a chunk of money on the over, heh). What would the remaining Lin doubters say? Well the hardcore haters will still scream empty stats and scrub and what not, but those types are ones we obviously learned to ignore. I'm asking the ones who were all like, "man why'd we sign this backup to starter money" types. How about after that, i mean it was pretty clear if only he had never gotten hurt he was on his way to putting up a strong season, even in motion offense where he doesnt dominate the ball to the consternation of the more fanatical and oftentimes ignorant section of Lin fans.

Personally i say Lin has a GREAT chance to get those stats as long as he keeps his aggression level up in shooting/making 3s and gets his legs under him to also put into effect his penetration game which usually gets him 5 or so FTs a game. He's taking 3s at larger volume in the past and if he can hit that magical 38% threshold it means he should be launching whenever he feels like. He's got his pet move hard drive reverse pivot hanging turnaround J working for him beautifully this year (FINALLY). He's not getting a steady diet of PnRs as all Lin fans were hoping, but he's doing a great job picking choosing his spots anyway and getting good shots up.

Will Lin doubters FINALLY stop doubting him and understand this is what we Lin fans knew he could do if given the starting gig. Lin i always felt could be top 10 PG if given another chance to start and trusted to lead a team.

A healthy Lin who goes 19/7/4/1/1 playing 32 mins a game the whole season was what i envisioned when i predicted a 32 win season for the Nets. All we can judge now if how the last 20 games go, at least thats a more decent sample. Of course playing tanking teams could help inflate the wins a bit (im hoping). Catching the Lakers would be awesome Screw you PHI Screw you BOS!

[MrDollarBills]

My response was to Prok's comment that "Lin needed a big year to be in Conley's class". My point is that Lin is already in Conley's class and is probably (hard to prove either way) more clutch than him. Certainly last night that was evident.
That's all.

No, he is not in Conley's class. Conley has years of data compiled as a starting PG. Lin does not.

The comparison is ludicrous. Lin has a ton of work to do to be mentioned in Conley's tier. How can you even quantify how clutch Lin is compared to Conley? How many playoff games has Lin competed in?

Last night was one game. Believe me, I WANT LIN to be playing to the point where people are honestly comparing him to Mike Conley, but all of this is ridiculous and baseless. Lin hasn't even been a starting PG for more than 1 season's worth of work. Lets pump the brakes, relax, and hope for Lin to continue to keep playing at a high level and staying healthy instead of trying to act insecure by downplaying one of this generation's best PGs for no reason.

My opinion is based on facts and observation when they go head to head. His stats are almost equal to Conley's even though his playing time per game is a lot less than Conley's. If you compare them per 36 minutes then their stats are nearly identical. These are the facts. What facts do you have to say that Lin is not even in Conley's class?

You are a supporter of Lin and feel he's good but in my opinion you're still underestimating his impact on a team. There are intangibles also that come into play that go beyond stats. However the stats show they are definitely in the same "class".

If your opinion was based on facts instead of your feelings, you would not be able to say 1/10th of what you've said with a straight face. Conley has 8 straight seasons as a full time starter to Lin's 1, and that's not even including this year which has been a bust because of injury.

I'm not underestimating anything. I'd rather wait to see Lin compile enough of a sample size as a starter to make an informed decision about him being better than anyone instead of trying to spin per36 as a good stat to judge players by or making eyeball test observations about one on one match ups.

When Lin starts 50 games in the playoffs and leads a team to a conference final, wake me up to debate this.

[Roy Tarpley]

We're just talking over each other. One side is arguing potential and one side is arguing empirical, absolute numbers. You can split the difference by saying Lin has the POTENTIAL to be as good as Conley but hasn't yet demonstrated the REALITY of this due to injuries, poor environment, longevity, etc.

The exciting part is that we are all FINALLY at the beginning of the fulfillment of Lin's potential. Whether Lin equals or even transcends Conley, or Lin proves to be a serviceable Teague-type, we will DEFINITIVELY know this over the next two years. ALL Lin fans should be ecstatic about this. And since Lin is on the Nets, ALL Nets fans should be ecstatic as well.

In 5-10 years, the Lin experience will be over, so might as well enjoy the ride while it's nearing its peak.

[LostInACrowd]

Interesting idea...... *Takes gloves off* Who wants a piece of me?

ME!!

Lol. Great idea.

But.......I like what you called it in the other threads. Can you change the title of the thread to the BEAR CAGE?

[twosevenstreet]

Maybe I haven't been around enough to see the necessity of this thread but since it is here, Lin is more important to our success than Brook.

IMO competent point guard play is more important than "good" offense from a center.

[Paradise]

Maybe I haven't been around enough to see the necessity of this thread but since it is here, Lin is more important to our success than Brook.

IMO competent point guard play is more important than "good" offense from a center.

I don't think anyone will disagree with that. It's something we've debated since the Deron era.

Brook is only the face of the franchise for the diehards like us and folks who's been around since he was drafted. I know when it comes down to the numbers. Lin is the guy who impacts our offense and defense. Brook COULD be more valuable but in all honesty, I feel better about Lin being the 'guy' over Brook. We don't win that game if Brook took all of Jeremy's 4th quarter shots.

That's the honest truth. Lin CAME here to be the star. Brook has spent 9 seasons looking for someone to be the star instead of him.


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[twosevenstreet]

Brook has spent 9 seasons looking for someone to be the star instead of him.

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[Claud]

Did not follow Lin's career but for us he's been huge. Obviously Lin isn't an elite level PG but he certainly is at least a starting quality PG. The main reason for such a bad season in terms of Ws/Ls is that we've lacked a true PG for the entire season. Had Lin remained healthy we'd be in the 25-30 win range this season. Lin is a very cerebral player and makes winning plays on both ends. He's a leader on and off the court the court and tends to do all of the little things which contributes to winning more. He seems to be less athletic than he used to be but has also gotten craftier as he is getting older. I hope he and the entire team can stay healthy to build even more chemistry in order to be ready to go next season.

[MrDollarBills]

I'd rather Lin be the "guy" or at least the one we put more faith into and count on. Why?

He plays hard on both ends of the floor, never taking plays off, and he holds himself accountable. Lopez will play aggressive one game, the next he'll be lackadaisical. He's better off being the complimentary guy.

[ghostowl]

Just came to say that I think Lin has only proved himself to be an NBA starter, nothing more. Will future show us something different? Maybe, but his prime will end in a few years so....we'll see then.

That being said, Conley is overrated. This has nothing to do with Lin. The guy is getting paid $30 mil a year and putting up 13-14 ppg career-wise with heavy minutes and an offense centered around him. He's getting Kobe-esque superstar calls and he's not even 50% of what Kobe was at his prime. Scratch that, he can't even be in the same sentence as Kobe.

Even Lowry and Bledsoe are better than Conley. Conley is very overrated and his only real accomplishment was his free agency timing. Conley as your main franchise player and main PG will only lead to first round exit.

You can't compare Lin and Conley. One has seasons under his belt while the other just had his real season thwarted by injury. Lin needs more games under his belt to be validly compared - I'm not saying if he's better or worse or equal. I'm just saying Lin is "n/a" in terms of assessments because he doesn't have enough games as a starting PG yet.