Lonzo Ball

[Marcus]

Why wouldn't he be a PG in the league?

I also dont get why he wont be able to beat people off the dribble. Its not like hes Kendall Marshall and is super slow. Ball is actually pretty quick. Does he need to tighten up his handles? Sure he does but thats a pretty trainable trait. Even though UCLA rarely runs it I think he has great potential to run the PnR as well. Guy are going to have to guard him out to 25ft because of his range, add that to his quickness I think he has the potential to be able to beat guys off the dribble.

Plus I dont think that will ever have to be a big part of his game for him to be a very successful PG.

The problem is that he hasn't shown any ability at all to beat people of the dribble at the college level, and in terms of that being coachable I agree he could get better at it but I think it very unlikely he'll be starting-PG serviceable because that's really one of those skills where you've either got it or you aint. And Ball aint got it.

He has beaten people off the dribble he just doesn't do it often. His handle does need a lot of work but he isn't a one on one scoring type of PG comparing him to or expecting him to be that is the wrong approach. He's not DSJ or Fultz and his game isn't centered around that. His PnR game is fixable with just learning how to run his guy into picks and being more patient when setting it up.
Midrange stroke isn't as labored as you're making it sound. He's taken and hit a few pullups in both transition and off of picks. The release was quick and compact but again he's not that type of PG to where that's a central part of his game.

I know a lot of people think these are excuses but I don't think those people can see past what they see nightly and understand there is more than one way to play the game and play the position. It's how Marc Gasol can be in the running for DPOY same as DeAndre Jordan. How Jokic is just as effective around the cup as KAT. How Magic played PG without a varied half court skillset and no advanced handle. Did a lot of scoring in transition and lived off of vision, size, and smarts with a slow ugly jumper. Jason Kidd wasn't AI crossing defenders. Andre Miller kept a job in the league a lot longer than Francis or Marbury despite not being anywhere near as dynamic.

There's a place in the league for IQ and know how. You can play PG without being like everybody else. It's how CP3 gets lost in the convo because he doesn't run like Wall, dunk like Russ, or shoot like Steph. How much of the flaws in Lonzo's game really hinder what he does effectively despite those flaws?

[Duke4life831]

^^ I think he is getting quite a few alleyoops per game, and also fast break points off of steals and turnovers.

Half of his shots at the rim are assisted. Which is high for a PG for sure. Again im not saying its a strength of his but I just dont think hes asked to do it. I do think its something he has to work on but I think he has solid potential with it because teams have to guard him close 25ft out because of his jumper and he is quick.

Here is a one sample of him driving against a good athletic defender in Ennis

Watch on YouTube

And just a couple comparisons Nash was one of the better PGs in the NBA with only 14% of his shots coming at the rim, Curry up until last year didnt have a year where at least 20% of his shots came at the rim and this year 41% of his 2pt shots are assisted on. I just dont think ISO driving is going to be a big or important part of his game. But I do think he has the potential to make guys pay for playing to close to him.

[Marcus]

Real quick. What do you like about his game if anything? Not sure I've seen one positive thing from you about him since you started posting here.

I ask because I've seen a few posters knock the kid strictly because they don't like the hype and picked him apart strictly to try and slow that down from other posters.

Passing for sure. He ain't taking a dribble more if he can pass to a teammate and get a shoot that is generaly a good shoot.

I love Fultz. But UCLA wouldn't be near the level it is with him as with Ball. The rationality of Balls play is impresive as **** and it doesn't seem as he is making concious decisions; just plays instinctivly. He is making the most with what he has for sure. But I just think that he has too little NBA tools in his game because of the form of the shoot.(Spot up shooter maby not problematic). The form of the shoot is also the reason why i think he will loose time to making it work when he should be adding to his game not building the foundations.

I don't believe in the maximization of his quallity with obvious flaws as that. NBA players try to tighten their game in evry sense with the ball. Can't we espect him to make that transition and will it be succesful?!

Ther u have it the positive aspects of his game and the scenario in whitch he won't live up to the potential.

Thank you sir.

[PLO]

^^ away from my pc, fuller reply later, cp3 is the most complete pg in the game, terrible comp for Ball as cp3 is (and was coming out) miles ahead of Ball. Ball will never be in the same world as cp3 as a pg, cp3 might be the best mid range pg in the history of the game, compared to Ball who doesn't have a mid range game at the college level,let alone having something semi serviceable for the nba

[Duke4life831]

The problem is that he hasn't shown any ability at all to beat people of the dribble at the college level, and in terms of that being coachable I agree he could get better at it but I think it very unlikely he'll be starting-PG serviceable because that's really one of those skills where you've either got it or you aint. And Ball aint got it.

25% of Fultz shots come at the rim and finishes at a 61% rate. 36.5% of Ball's shots come at the rim and finishes at a 78% rate. So Ball actually only attempts about one less shot at the rim per game than Fultz even though Fultz puts up 7 more shots a game. Either Ball is one of the greatest off ball cutters of all time and is getting close to 4 alley-oops a game or your underestimating how much he actually gets to the rim. Is it a strength? No but he has shown he can do it.

If you can show me one piece of footage where Ball finishes at the rim apart from alley oop I'd reckon it's probably from a one on one in training

Watch on YouTube

[WalterBenjamin]

^^ away from my pc, fuller reply later, cp3 is the most complete pg in the game, terrible comp for Ball as cp3 is (and was coming out) miles ahead of Ball. Ball will never be in the same world as cp3 as a pg, cp3 might be the best mid range pg in the history of the game, compared to Ball who doesn't have a mid range game at the college level,let alone having something semi serviceable for the nba

Or Nash comparisons. Nash is teaching KD post moves, jump shots etc.

[Duke4life831]

^^ away from my pc, fuller reply later, cp3 is the most complete pg in the game, terrible comp for Ball as cp3 is (and was coming out) miles ahead of Ball. Ball will never be in the same world as cp3 as a pg, cp3 might be the best mid range pg in the history of the game, compared to Ball who doesn't have a mid range game at the college level,let alone having something semi serviceable for the nba

Or Nash comparisons. Nash is teaching KD post moves, jump shots etc.

Im guessing this is in reference to what I just posted. The only reason I brought up Nash was to show a PG doesnt need to be able to drive by his man and get to the rim all the time to be an elite PG. Not saying they have similar styles of play.

[Marcus]

^^ away from my pc, fuller reply later, cp3 is the most complete pg in the game, terrible comp for Ball as cp3 is (and was coming out) miles ahead of Ball. Ball will never be in the same world as cp3 as a pg, cp3 might be the best mid range pg in the history of the game, compared to Ball who doesn't have a mid range game at the college level,let alone having something semi serviceable for the nba

Completely missed the point. At no point did I compare Lonzo's game to CP3.

[Marcus]

^^ away from my pc, fuller reply later, cp3 is the most complete pg in the game, terrible comp for Ball as cp3 is (and was coming out) miles ahead of Ball. Ball will never be in the same world as cp3 as a pg, cp3 might be the best mid range pg in the history of the game, compared to Ball who doesn't have a mid range game at the college level,let alone having something semi serviceable for the nba

Or Nash comparisons. Nash is teaching KD post moves, jump shots etc.

Im guessing this is in reference to what I just posted. The only reason I brought up Nash was to show a PG doesnt need to be able to drive by his man and get to the rim all the time to be an elite PG.

I didn't think what was being said was that difficult. This may be the problem in the conversation.

[PLO]

25% of Fultz shots come at the rim and finishes at a 61% rate. 36.5% of Ball's shots come at the rim and finishes at a 78% rate. So Ball actually only attempts about one less shot at the rim per game than Fultz even though Fultz puts up 7 more shots a game. Either Ball is one of the greatest off ball cutters of all time and is getting close to 4 alley-oops a game or your underestimating how much he actually gets to the rim. Is it a strength? No but he has shown he can do it.

If you can show me one piece of footage where Ball finishes at the rim apart from alley oop I'd reckon it's probably from a one on one in training

Watch on YouTube

I was probably hyperbolic; but that might as well have been training given it looks like he was playing against a witches hat

[Duke4life831]

If you can show me one piece of footage where Ball finishes at the rim apart from alley oop I'd reckon it's probably from a one on one in training

Watch on YouTube

I was probably hyperbolic; but that might as well have been training given it looks like he was playing against a witches hat

What? That was against Dylan Ennis who is a good defender and really good athlete. This also wasnt in some blowout either. This was in a 1 possession game with 1 minute to go. So you ask for one example and I give you one right away and you discredit it saying it was basically training? It sounds like you have your mind already made up and wont allow anything to change your mind.

[Marcus]

If you can show me one piece of footage where Ball finishes at the rim apart from alley oop I'd reckon it's probably from a one on one in training

Watch on YouTube

I was probably hyperbolic; but that might as well have been training given it looks like he was playing against a witches hat

So there isn't anything you can see to sway your stance. Fair enough.

[PLO]

I've watched a lot of his games so yeah I've made my mind up; there's one thing driving from full court at the college level vs tired defenders vs driving from half court vs a set defense in the NBA as a pg, so my point still stands that he does not have the skills to be an NBA level starting point. He's a good player, good point guard? No. Another way to look at it is put him in replacing fultz at wash, I don't think he'd even in convo for top 15 without all that sweet spacing he gets from his own great team

[PLO]

I've watched a lot of his games so yeah I've made my mind up; there's one thing driving from full court at the college level vs tired defenders vs driving from half court vs a set defense in the NBA as a pg, so my point still stands that he does not have the skills to be an NBA level starting point. He's a good player, good point guard? No. Another way to look at it is put him in replacing fultz at wash, I don't think he'd even in convo for top 15 without all that sweet spacing he gets from his own great team

[Duke4life831]

I've watched a lot of his games so yeah I've made my mind up; there's one thing driving from full court at the college level vs tired defenders vs driving from half court vs a set defense in the NBA as a pg, so my point still stands that he does not have the skills to be an NBA level starting point. He's a good player, good point guard? No. Another way to look at it is put him in replacing fultz at wash, I don't think he'd even in convo for top 15 without all that sweet spacing he gets from his own great team

I showed video evidence of him driving against a set defender with a good athletic defender on him. Also is ISO driving the go to skill on what makes a PG? He has the best vision and passing in this draft and hes the best shooter out of all the PGs as well, he also has the athleticism and has the best size as well. So since he doesnt play in a system that asks for a lot of 1 on 1 driving he is not considered a PG? Ball would be in the top 5 discussion no matter what school he went to.

[WalterBenjamin]

Im guessing this is in reference to what I just posted. The only reason I brought up Nash was to show a PG doesnt need to be able to drive by his man and get to the rim all the time to be an elite PG. Not saying they have similar styles of play.

The inabillity of Nash to get to the rim has nothing to do with him being an elite point guard. It's everything else that mathers.

I also could use that argument. I can't drive to the hoop. So can't Nash. It doesn't stop us from being elite point guards.

[Duke4life831]

Im guessing this is in reference to what I just posted. The only reason I brought up Nash was to show a PG doesnt need to be able to drive by his man and get to the rim all the time to be an elite PG. Not saying they have similar styles of play.

The inabillity of Nash to get to the rim has nothing to do with him being an elite point guard. It's everything else that mathers.

I also could use that argument. I can't drive to the hoop. So can't Nash. It doesn't stop us from being elite point guards.

I agree 100%. PLO was basically inferring that Ball is a good talent but hes not a PG because he cant drive to the hoop. My point of bringing up Nash was there are different types of PGs not all PGs need to attack the rim all the time to be elite. Lets look at Ball compared to Fultz and DSJ. Ball has the best vision, is the best passer, is the best shooter, is the best defender. Everywhere he has gone the offense he leads is an elite offense.

Just cause Ball doesnt drive to the rim a lot doesnt stop him from being an elite PG prospect.

[WalterBenjamin]

I agree 100%. PLO was basically inferring that Ball is a good talent but hes not a PG because he cant drive to the hoop. My point of bringing up Nash was there are different types of PGs not all PGs need to attack the rim all the time to be elite. Lets look at Ball compared to Fultz and DSJ. Ball has the best vision, is the best passer, is the best shooter, is the best defender. Everywhere he has gone the offense he leads is an elite offense.

Just cause Ball doesnt drive to the rim a lot doesnt stop him from being an elite PG prospect.

In a sense that he can play all plays in the book i doub't it. In the sense of making the pass that is there he is great. So to say Ball will always be a great passer. But will he be able create the passing lanes like perhaps Fultz will. Ore in other words. His offensive game won't help him much in being the great passer in the NBA that he can be.

[eagereyez]

Nash didn't need to get to the hoop because he was arguably the greatest shooter of all time until Steph Curry happened.

The best shooters are automatic from the line in college. It's a reach to declare Ball the better shooter. Nylon Calculus estimates that Ball and Fultz will have similar 3P%s their rookie years in the NBA.

[MrMiyagi]

What the hell is everyone talking about Nash not being able to get to the hoop?

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Almost his whole game was predicated on attacking the hoop in pick and roll action. Or did y'all just forget that?

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