Can a Vogel lead offense succeed in today's NBA?

[fateis007]

Before the season started, most of us thought that Vogel was going to make us a defensive force that struggled to score the ball, but would be a middle of the pack playoff team.

We have ended up being a below average defensive team with the worst offense in the NBA.

For the most part, I have wanted to give Vogel the benefit of the doubt, since we don't have a "take over" type of player lke Paul George.

But after watching that 40 point bashing yesterday, it's really hard to believe that it's only just our players anymore or what to even make of our recent uptempo style.

Charlotte was playing some downright beautiful basketball. They were cutting, setting constant pick and pops, and almost every single possession was a pass/drive/shoot within 1 second, type of basketball that Vogel has been preaching, with a ton of ball movement and quick decisions. (and this wasn't the first time, they destroyed us the same way in 3 games)

Then on the Magic end, we would probably have been down 50 if it wasn't for AG's hero ball and EP running pick and rolls. Besides that there was nothing to be excited about. Our players are very stagnant, with very little off the ball movement. We don't slash or run pick and pops consistently, and we don't drive the ball much to create space. Our offense is almost always predicated on a single pick and roll, from EG or Fournier, with almost no drive and kick game.

So what is going on here ? Is this really the best we should expect with this roster from Vogel, or is his offensive game planning just basic and far behind most of the league?

[rcklsscognition]

This is mostly still the team that took 4+ months to be able to successfully perform an in-game adjustment under Scott Skiles. I remember him talking about how until I think late January, he had never been able to get adjustments done in game without totally screwing up the entire team because they couldn't handle it mentally and it made things worse.

It seems like we're there again, but in fairness, we basically started the season over 3 weeks ago, so we're playing totally different basketball, plus we got a new player. We also lost our only reliable 3 point shooter.

But the results are not good.

[DiplomaticMagic]

Nah

[axl_c_cool]

What offence, we play 1 on 1 basketball. I like Frank, I do, but if we're not playing elite defence then this team is in trouble


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[Bensational]

A 40 point blowout is horrible, but it's off the back of near wins against Portland, Washington and New York, as well as a 30 point drubbing of Miami and convincing beat down on Chicago.

There's something wrong with the team understanding how to control the game. Also, our players become self defeated way too easily and will sometimes lack the grit to fight back into it.

I do believe a lot of this current iteration hinges on Payton, but not in any form criticism. He's young and still learning the game and how much power he has controlling it. We saw a stint in February where we saw the essence of a Payton-style team, and lately we've been seeing much more of what a Payton-style team will look like. The offense needs to be built around him, with the Paul George playbook thrown out the window for now (since we have no Paul George's). Ross is doing well on curls and mid ranges in the high post, so that's something we can go to once in a while. Fournier's team ball movement has been much improved since Vuc went out, so there's more cohesion on all fronts. And AG is finally making hard cuts and hustle plays and scoring in the way we saw him doing last season - plus he's now added a semblance of some handles, so he's a bit more flexible.

But the team needs to identify who it's building around and who the focal point will be and stick with it. It's probably tough to commit to Payton with the draft coming up and the possibility we might end up with Fultz or Ball, but we need to continue developing as if we won't get them.

We also need to figure out what to do with Elf when he's off the ball. Cant' camp him out on the perimeter because he becomes passive and is a reluctant shooter. Get him in the paint with Biyombo hustling for offensive rebounds and being around for hand offs and shovel passes. Even if it means his defender is down there ready to collapse on a driving Ross/Evan/AG, once Elf has the ball closer to the rim then good things happen. Defenders will scramble to get back on him, and in that, good things will happen. Maybe?

[BadMofoPimp]

Vogel got out coached. Plain and simple. He is not as good as Clifford as a coach.

[Optimus_Steel]

A 40 point blowout is horrible, but it's off the back of near wins against Portland, Washington and New York, as well as a 30 point drubbing of Miami and convincing beat down on Chicago.

There's something wrong with the team understanding how to control the game. Also, our players become self defeated way too easily and will sometimes lack the grit to fight back into it.

I do believe a lot of this current iteration hinges on Payton, but not in any form criticism. He's young and still learning the game and how much power he has controlling it. We saw a stint in February where we saw the essence of a Payton-style team, and lately we've been seeing much more of what a Payton-style team will look like. The offense needs to be built around him, with the Paul George playbook thrown out the window for now (since we have no Paul George's). Ross is doing well on curls and mid ranges in the high post, so that's something we can go to once in a while. Fournier's team ball movement has been much improved since Vuc went out, so there's more cohesion on all fronts. And AG is finally making hard cuts and hustle plays and scoring in the way we saw him doing last season - plus he's now added a semblance of some handles, so he's a bit more flexible.

But the team needs to identify who it's building around and who the focal point will be and stick with it. It's probably tough to commit to Payton with the draft coming up and the possibility we might end up with Fultz or Ball, but we need to continue developing as if we won't get them.

We also need to figure out what to do with Elf when he's off the ball. Cant' camp him out on the perimeter because he becomes passive and is a reluctant shooter. Get him in the paint with Biyombo hustling for offensive rebounds and being around for hand offs and shovel passes. Even if it means his defender is down there ready to collapse on a driving Ross/Evan/AG, once Elf has the ball closer to the rim then good things happen. Defenders will scramble to get back on him, and in that, good things will happen. Maybe?

We can't continue building the offense around Payton. We've essentially done that and we are the worst offense in the league. We are dreadful in all sorts of offense metrics, most notably in 3pt shooting where we are last. Its ridiculous to put all this on Payton because he is not the only inept scorer on this team, we have too many, but he is the starting PG and is responsible for initiating the offense, and his lack of offense makes it difficult to run the offense. Then if you move him off the ball and he is useless because he can't shot so the defenders leave him wide open to go help defend and thus no spacing or driving lanes. Elf should really be a backup PG, a really good one because he does do some things really well, but not a long term starter with his terrible offense.

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[MasterGMer]

A 40 point blowout is horrible, but it's off the back of near wins against Portland, Washington and New York, as well as a 30 point drubbing of Miami and convincing beat down on Chicago.

There's something wrong with the team understanding how to control the game. Also, our players become self defeated way too easily and will sometimes lack the grit to fight back into it.

I do believe a lot of this current iteration hinges on Payton, but not in any form criticism. He's young and still learning the game and how much power he has controlling it. We saw a stint in February where we saw the essence of a Payton-style team, and lately we've been seeing much more of what a Payton-style team will look like. The offense needs to be built around him, with the Paul George playbook thrown out the window for now (since we have no Paul George's). Ross is doing well on curls and mid ranges in the high post, so that's something we can go to once in a while. Fournier's team ball movement has been much improved since Vuc went out, so there's more cohesion on all fronts. And AG is finally making hard cuts and hustle plays and scoring in the way we saw him doing last season - plus he's now added a semblance of some handles, so he's a bit more flexible.

But the team needs to identify who it's building around and who the focal point will be and stick with it. It's probably tough to commit to Payton with the draft coming up and the possibility we might end up with Fultz or Ball, but we need to continue developing as if we won't get them.

We also need to figure out what to do with Elf when he's off the ball. Cant' camp him out on the perimeter because he becomes passive and is a reluctant shooter. Get him in the paint with Biyombo hustling for offensive rebounds and being around for hand offs and shovel passes. Even if it means his defender is down there ready to collapse on a driving Ross/Evan/AG, once Elf has the ball closer to the rim then good things happen. Defenders will scramble to get back on him, and in that, good things will happen. Maybe?

We can't continue building the offense around Payton. We've essentially done that and we are the worst offense in the league. We are dreadful in all sorts of offense metrics, most notably in 3pt shooting where we are last. Its ridiculous to put all this on Payton because he is not the only inept scorer on this team, we have too many, but he is the starting PG and is responsible for initiating the offense, and his lack of offense makes it difficult to run the offense. Then if you move him off the ball and he is useless because he can't shot so the defenders leave him wide open to go help defend and thus no spacing or driving lanes. Elf should really be a backup PG, a really good one because he does do some things really well, but not a long term starter with his terrible offense.

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My thinking is EP has to be more of a facilitator on this offense.

My suggestion is to let EP become more of a scorer. He could turn his game on from what I saw.

But I do agree. This offense should be built around EP, at least the rest of the season.

He is only a Junior in the league. Don't judge players now since they are still on the early stage of development. Players do grow their own games. (where player development is so underrated in the league)

Give EP some time, he is still young. His game will come around and I do firmly believe that, at least for now

[fendilim]

I dont believe you can win with a defensive oriented team alone. You need superb offensive players to make it work. This team has proven, albeit in limited fashion, that we can be elite defensively, but offense is a question.

[cedric76]

From savior to a bad coach, lol this board

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[Hadvar]

-We need more defense to fuel the offense(something around 6-12dfr),this team lack offensive talent but it is athletic,we need more transition/fastbreak points as possible

-even half court we need more movement and setting better screens for ross and fournier outside shoots;and more screen and roll with payton ball handler,not making sense keeping him as a spot up shooter.

-i know is not original,but payton and gordon have to improve that 3 point shot this offseason,is getting ridiculous at this point

Vogel deserves naturally another chance for various reasons,but next year we need to be a better team playing better since first game(hopefully the roster remain the same,without idiotic non sense moves),we have no chance to be great,but reasonble chances to be decent

[pepe1991]

Payton, Gordon and Vučević,, no matter who is your coach if your 3 starters have below average TS% you will suck on offense.

[cedric76]

Bring on Paul George on draft day

Let's reunite them

And sign hill and lauvergne

EP.hill.dj
Evan.hill.mario
PG.evan.mario
Ag.pg.lauvergne
Vuc.biz.lauvergne.zimm



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[OrlandoDream]

Aside from Vuc, we have no efficient offensive threat. Our bench is awful and the rest of the starters are inconsistent and have no continuity to their offensive game. Even the 1st overall pick won't solve all our problems. The team lacks talent in all areas aside from C and PF. We have bench players starting and our bench players would be DNP in other teams or out of the league.

Its just a poorly constructed roster in both ends of the court. This year's draft is a golden opportunity to start again. The losing culture is what bothers me the most. Being ok with getting blown out by 40 points is just embarrassing. Rob has assembled a bunch of potentials that are not good and have become accustomed to losing.

[RickB-Orlando]

Bring on Paul George on draft day

Let's reunite them

And sign hill and lauvergne

EP.hill.dj
Evan.hill.mario
PG.evan.mario
Ag.pg.lauvergne
Vuc.biz.lauvergne.zimm



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Well, if that's all we need to do...

[cedric76]

Bring on Paul George on draft day

Let's reunite them

And sign hill and lauvergne

EP.hill.dj
Evan.hill.mario
PG.evan.mario
Ag.pg.lauvergne
Vuc.biz.lauvergne.zimm



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Well, if that's all we need to do...

Yeap, not much

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[MagicFan101]

A few comments / observations:

1) We saw improvements from Elf and Gordon but not to the extent everyone hoped.

2) The Ibaka experiment didn't work and neither did Gordon at SF.

3) Gordon at PF looks much better but it leaves us weak at the SF which is a key role for Vogel / Forcier.

4) Vuc has taken a step forward defensively.

= I still think he can be a great coach for us. The current pieces just didn't fit. But you have to try to find out.

We need a home run at SF in this draft. Jackson, Isaac or Tatum all have the potential to be that for us.

An upgrade at PG is also a good route but the two guys most likely to give us that will probably be off the board.

[PennytoShaq]

The NBA is a player's league. Too many people blame coaching instead of low talent. We get a guy here who can average 20 plus a game and make a few more upgrades, and Vogel will be considered to be much better.

[boomershadow]

Bring on Paul George on draft day

Let's reunite them

And sign hill and lauvergne

EP.hill.dj
Evan.hill.mario
PG.evan.mario
Ag.pg.lauvergne
Vuc.biz.lauvergne.zimm



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Paul does not play the 4. Won't do it.

[cedric76]

Bring on Paul George on draft day

Let's reunite them

And sign hill and lauvergne

EP.hill.dj
Evan.hill.mario
PG.evan.mario
Ag.pg.lauvergne
Vuc.biz.lauvergne.zimm



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Paul does not play the 4. Won't do it.

He does as small ball 4 when needed.
Anyway he wouldn't have to play much 4 here as AG and lauvergne would play most minutes there

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