Twitter thread: Marc Stein did Andre Drummond a disservice by naming him a DPOY candidate

duncansmithnba · Post #1 » by **duncansmithnba** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:25 pm

Thread. It's kinda long, but might be informative.

DETermination · Post #2 » by **DETermination** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:43 pm

Anyone who watched Drummond play every game knows he should be not even be close to mentioned as a possible DPOT. Although when Andre is playing with energy and actually trying you can see the potential there, if he can just consistently give effort maybe one day he could be a DPOY.

Laimbeer · Post #3 » by **Laimbeer** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:44 am

He's first in defensive rating, second in defensive win shares, and eighth in defensive box plus/minus.

coordinator0 · Post #4 » by **coordinator0** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:30 pm

Laimbeer wrote:He's first in defensive rating, second in defensive win shares, and eighth in defensive box plus/minus.

Just goes to show you how useless/bad "advanced" defensive metrics are.

Laimbeer · Post #5 » by **Laimbeer** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:31 pm

coordinator0 wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:He's first in defensive rating, second in defensive win shares, and eighth in defensive box plus/minus.

Just goes to show you how useless/bad "advanced" defensive metrics are.

Are you looking at others that aren't as good for him?

coordinator0 · Post #6 » by **coordinator0** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:34 pm

Laimbeer wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:He's first in defensive rating, second in defensive win shares, and eighth in defensive box plus/minus.

Just goes to show you how useless/bad "advanced" defensive metrics are.

Are you looking at others that aren't as good for him?

Nope. More of a detriment against advanced defensive stats than it was saying anything about Drummond. Seriously, they're really bad. Advanced offensive stats have their uses but things get much more subjective on the other end of the court. I wouldn't try and build a case for (or against) anything using defensive metrics.

Redeemed · Post #7 » by **Redeemed** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:42 pm

duncansmithnba wrote:

Read on Twitter

Thread. It's kinda long, but might be informative.

It makes advanced metrics look like bunk.
It empowers a sometimes lazy and disinterested power into thinking he's doing all the right things.
As a positive, it demonstrates how great he COULD be with work and better commitment.

hoophabit · Post #8 » by **hoophabit** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:48 pm

I don't see how being in this conversation at all can be considered a "disservice?" DPOY? No. Great defender? No. Horrible defender? No. I haven't given up on his growing in the game. I don't think the attention is bad.

Redeemed · Post #9 » by **Redeemed** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:15 pm

hoophabit wrote:I don't see how being in this conversation at all can be considered a "disservice?" DPOY? No. Great defender? No. Horrible defender? No. I haven't given up on his growing in the game. I don't think the attention is bad.

Let's say you've got a guy who has TREMENDOUS potential; however immaturity and entitlement are things that hold him back. When coach goes with a game plan, said guy goes with the game plan inconsistently because he feels his way is better. If that guy gets kudos on something he isn't very good at based on the eye test, it will be all the more difficult to rein him in and get him on task. That is what we've been seeing with Drummond since his UCONN days. It followed him during his time with the USA Basketball team (which is why he was the third string garbage time center) and it continues to surface.

hoophabit · Post #10 » by **hoophabit** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:46 pm

Redeemed wrote:
hoophabit wrote:I don't see how being in this conversation at all can be considered a "disservice?" DPOY? No. Great defender? No. Horrible defender? No. I haven't given up on his growing in the game. I don't think the attention is bad.

Let's say you've got a guy who has TREMENDOUS potential; however immaturity and entitlement are things that hold him back. When coach goes with a game plan, said guy goes with the game plan inconsistently because he feels his way is better. If that guy gets kudos on something he isn't very good at based on the eye test, it will be all the more difficult to rein him in and get him on task. That is what we've been seeing with Drummond since his UCONN days. It followed him during his time with the USA Basketball team (which is why he was the third string garbage time center) and it continues to surface.

Okay, but I think you're making a dark assessment of the situation. Drummond is doing a better job of going out to the perimeter and blitzing players, and still recovering to the lane. SVG said there was a bit of a tug or war there, but coach seems to be getting through. AD doesn't seem like a guy who wants to fight coaching. You have no empathy after watching him get burned repeatedly for going to help? It's partly a team issue. Being "third string" in USA basketball isn't the same as dregs of the league. He needs to improve his situational awareness and consistency. Still, according to my "eye test," teams are affected by his presence down in the paint. He's a flawed player, but strongly affects many games. Encouragement for his efforts doesn't seem a bad thing to me.

bballnmike · Post #11 » by **bballnmike** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:13 pm

hoophabit wrote:I don't see how being in this conversation at all can be considered a "disservice?" DPOY? No. Great defender? No. Horrible defender? No. I haven't given up on his growing in the game. I don't think the attention is bad.

If you read the full thread on twitter, I think the point is that Stein is using flawed advanced defensive statistics to make a case for Drummond, when instead there are things that he legitimately is elite at and those are not getting enough attention.

pistontr · Post #12 » by **pistontr** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:18 pm

I like Drummond's post game in general. He panics when other teams bring help then shoots anyway (he should fine open man). They bring help because he is good.

his defense is horrible.

Redeemed · Post #13 » by **Redeemed** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:26 am

hoophabit wrote:
Redeemed wrote:
hoophabit wrote:I don't see how being in this conversation at all can be considered a "disservice?" DPOY? No. Great defender? No. Horrible defender? No. I haven't given up on his growing in the game. I don't think the attention is bad.

Let's say you've got a guy who has TREMENDOUS potential; however immaturity and entitlement are things that hold him back. When coach goes with a game plan, said guy goes with the game plan inconsistently because he feels his way is better. If that guy gets kudos on something he isn't very good at based on the eye test, it will be all the more difficult to rein him in and get him on task. That is what we've been seeing with Drummond since his UCONN days. It followed him during his time with the USA Basketball team (which is why he was the third string garbage time center) and it continues to surface.

Okay, but I think you're making a dark assessment of the situation. Drummond is doing a better job of going out to the perimeter and blitzing players, and still recovering to the lane. SVG said there was a bit of a tug or war there, but coach seems to be getting through. AD doesn't seem like a guy who wants to fight coaching. You have no empathy after watching him get burned repeatedly for going to help? It's partly a team issue. Being "third string" in USA basketball isn't the same as dregs of the league. He needs to improve his situational awareness and consistency. Still, according to my "eye test," teams are affected by his presence down in the paint. He's a flawed player, but strongly affects many games. Encouragement for his efforts doesn't seem a bad thing to me.

I didn't mean to paint an overly grim picture of Drummond. He has started trending in the right direction lately and his recent play once again show us glimpses of what we thought we wanted to see all season. Do I have empathy watching him get burned? Not when he makes half baked attempts to play defense or mentally checks out. But on those occasions where he gives his all and he gets burnt, I am overjoyed to see the energy.

As for being third string on USA Basketball, when you're buried behind Plumlee barely get garbage time opportunities and the coach speaks to the media about the hard lesson you have to learn about being a team player, yeah that's a bad look. He's flawed but special. He lacks skill, but his blend of size, strength, speed, and agility put him in a rare category. As I tried to say before, his biggest challenges appear to be emotional/mental. His high rebounding and steals numbers make him appear to be a standout defensive player and he's a ways from that. The metrics tell a skewed story and oversells him.