Can a Vogel lead offense succeed in today's NBA?

[MartinsIzAfraud]

A 40 point blowout is horrible, but it's off the back of near wins against Portland, Washington and New York, as well as a 30 point drubbing of Miami and convincing beat down on Chicago.

There's something wrong with the team understanding how to control the game. Also, our players become self defeated way too easily and will sometimes lack the grit to fight back into it.

I do believe a lot of this current iteration hinges on Payton, but not in any form criticism. He's young and still learning the game and how much power he has controlling it. We saw a stint in February where we saw the essence of a Payton-style team, and lately we've been seeing much more of what a Payton-style team will look like. The offense needs to be built around him, with the Paul George playbook thrown out the window for now (since we have no Paul George's). Ross is doing well on curls and mid ranges in the high post, so that's something we can go to once in a while. Fournier's team ball movement has been much improved since Vuc went out, so there's more cohesion on all fronts. And AG is finally making hard cuts and hustle plays and scoring in the way we saw him doing last season - plus he's now added a semblance of some handles, so he's a bit more flexible.

But the team needs to identify who it's building around and who the focal point will be and stick with it. It's probably tough to commit to Payton with the draft coming up and the possibility we might end up with Fultz or Ball, but we need to continue developing as if we won't get them.

We also need to figure out what to do with Elf when he's off the ball. Cant' camp him out on the perimeter because he becomes passive and is a reluctant shooter. Get him in the paint with Biyombo hustling for offensive rebounds and being around for hand offs and shovel passes. Even if it means his defender is down there ready to collapse on a driving Ross/Evan/AG, once Elf has the ball closer to the rim then good things happen. Defenders will scramble to get back on him, and in that, good things will happen. Maybe?

We can't continue building the offense around Payton. We've essentially done that and we are the worst offense in the league. We are dreadful in all sorts of offense metrics, most notably in 3pt shooting where we are last. Its ridiculous to put all this on Payton because he is not the only inept scorer on this team, we have too many, but he is the starting PG and is responsible for initiating the offense, and his lack of offense makes it difficult to run the offense. Then if you move him off the ball and he is useless because he can't shot so the defenders leave him wide open to go help defend and thus no spacing or driving lanes. Elf should really be a backup PG, a really good one because he does do some things really well, but not a long term starter with his terrible offense.

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My thinking is EP has to be more of a facilitator on this offense.

My suggestion is to let EP become more of a scorer. He could turn his game on from what I saw.

But I do agree. This offense should be built around EP, at least the rest of the season.

He is only a Junior in the league. Don't judge players now since they are still on the early stage of development. Players do grow their own games. (where player development is so underrated in the league)

Give EP some time, he is still young. His game will come around and I do firmly believe that, at least for now

Its been 3 years and EP has made little strides in development. I think he would be one of the best backup PG's if we were able to land a DSJ, Monk, or Jawun Evans type player who is a more traditional score first PG. The biggest issue I have is he is so inconsistent, and it seems he can turn his effort on and off quarter by quarter. EP is good against the mediocre PG led teams and gets torched vs the mid tier to all star level PG's.

Magic have the worst 3 point % in the league and that's a HUGE issue, we essentially have 2 starters who shoot sub 30% while also being sub 70% from the FT line. IMO magic need to decide which way they go and I think they've decided that EP isn't starting quality. There's a reason we were in trade talk with every available PG in the NBA, and it will continue until the draft/summer.

[SOUL]

Its been 3 years and EP has made little strides in development. I think he would be one of the best backup PG's if we were able to land a DSJ, Monk, or Jawun Evans type player who is a more traditional score first PG. The biggest issue I have is he is so inconsistent, and it seems he can turn his effort on and off quarter by quarter. EP is good against the mediocre PG led teams and gets torched vs the mid tier to all star level PG's.

Magic have the worst 3 point % in the league and that's a HUGE issue, we essentially have 2 starters who shoot sub 30% while also being sub 70% from the FT line. IMO magic need to decide which way they go and I think they've decided that EP isn't starting quality. There's a reason we were in trade talk with every available PG in the NBA, and it will continue until the draft/summer.

Somebody posted in the offseason thread and Elfrid showed improvements in every area of shooting except three points. Also Elfrid always seems to show up against Rubio, Schroder, Wall, Dragic, etc... he struggles against some players like Curry (who doesn't) and Kemba but I don't think it's fair to say he can't compete with the others.

[BadMofoPimp]

I think Elf is developing fine and will be a solid starter in 2-3 years. It seems everyone expects every player to be some All-Star talent in the making and if not, must be replaced asap. There is a reason this is a team sport and not every team can afford All-Stars at every position.

[SOUL]

I think Elf is developing fine and will be a solid starter in 2-3 years. It seems everyone expects every player to be some All-Star talent in the making and if not, must be replaced asap. There is a reason this is a team sport and not every team can afford All-Stars at every position.

Wow me and BMP agree. I would give you +10 And1's for this if I could. The only reason I'm not against moving on from Elf is because there are 3 really good guard prospects in the draft, but other than that I have no problems with how Elf has progressed. If he wasn't doing anything with the ball in his hands I would agree with the others but we're seeing what he can do without the big lineup and him as primary ball handler and he's almost had 4 triple doubles. Even when he's shooting bad like last game he is still being effective in other areas.

[Xatticus]

I think Elf is developing fine and will be a solid starter in 2-3 years. It seems everyone expects every player to be some All-Star talent in the making and if not, must be replaced asap. There is a reason this is a team sport and not every team can afford All-Stars at every position.

Wow me and BMP agree. I would give you +10 And1's for this if I could. The only reason I'm not against moving on from Elf is because there are 3 really good guard prospects in the draft, but other than that I have no problems with how Elf has progressed. If he wasn't doing anything with the ball in his hands I would agree with the others but we're seeing what he can do without the big lineup and him as primary ball handler and he's almost had 4 triple doubles. Even when he's shooting bad like last game he is still being effective in other areas.

I don't worry about young players that are improving. I worry about the ones that aren't. His TS% is moving up into the respectable tier, and we know he is a capable facilitator and defender with room to improve. His development is still somewhat precarious in that the first sign of regression throws up red flags, but on team bereft of players that are gifted both physically and technically, he is one of our only sources for optimism.

He might very well be the best player on the team right now, so I fail to see how replacing him is the best path towards competitiveness.

Vogel isn't an astute offensive mind. It's not the source of his reputation, and this was precisely the reason given by Bird as to why he wasn't retained, so our expectations had to be tempered. I think the real question regards his ability to accept his own deficiencies and address them with the resources he has available. Any head coach in the league has the means at their disposal to add personnel to their staff that can address their own shortcomings. Not all coaches have the wherewithal to acknowledge their own deficiencies. You can't fix what you won't admit is broken.

[SOUL]

I don't worry about young players that are improving. I worry about the ones that aren't. His TS% is moving up into the respectable tier, and we know he is a capable facilitator and defender with room to improve. His development is still somewhat precarious in that the first sign of regression throws up red flags, but on team bereft of players that are gifted both physically and technically, he is one of our lone sources for optimism.

He might very well be the best player on the team right now, so I fail to see how replacing him is the best path towards competitiveness.

Vogel isn't an astute offensive mind. It's not the source of his reputation, and this was precisely the reason given by Bird as to why he wasn't retained, so our expectations had to be tempered. I think the real question regards his ability to accept his own deficiencies and address them with the resources he has available. Any head coach in the league has the means at their disposal to add personnel to their staff that can address their own shortcomings. Not all coaches have the wherewithal to acknowledge their own deficiencies. You can't fix what you won't admit is broken.

I definitely agree.

You should venture over into the AG/Elf thread, feels like I'm in the Twilight Zone with some of my opinions there. I just don't think we're a team that should let players with talent walk unless the contract is truly an albatross or above the going rate for what similar players provide.

[Bensational]

I think Elf is developing fine as a PG. He's dramatically improved his ability to get to and finish at the rim, his consistency is up, and he's learning how to control games. His passing has always been good and remains good.

Sure he can't shoot, who knows if he ever will be able to?

My only concern about him is how he'd fit alongside a true, ball dominant superstar. Especially with Vogel at the reigns of the offense. With Paul George, he was at least able to have George Hill play on the perimeter. Elf can't be that guy. So the question then becomes how do you keep him active in a way that distracts the defense? Does he have to make a lot of moves off the ball geared towards him finding a clear path for a cut to the basket to give that superstar an outlet option? Seems like it could work to me, since a lot of the Paul George playbook ends up in a shot from the high post. Should be a clear lane on the weak side - but it feels like that's where AG is already doing his work?

[___Rand___]

The NBA is a player's league. Too many people blame coaching instead of low talent. We get a guy here who can average 20 plus a game and make a few more upgrades, and Vogel will be considered to be much better.

You CAN develop them. Coach, patience. Have a multi-year vision. They are so young!

[___Rand___]

Magic have the worst 3 point % in the league and that's a HUGE issue, we essentially have 2 starters who shoot sub 30% while also being sub 70% from the FT line. IMO magic need to decide which way they go and I think they've decided that EP isn't starting quality. There's a reason we were in trade talk with every available PG in the NBA, and it will continue until the draft/summer.

yeah it is puzzling that you have a lot of smalls but they aren't good 3 point shooters. Raps have the same problem. Vogel and team needs to send each player with homework for the off season. Tell EP and TRoss to improve their 3 point shooting for instance.

[BadWolf]

Anyone else on fire Vogel train yet?
Do you think he can have more success with this team next year? Most of the 'core' returning, a high level rookie, some newbies here and there, no major free agent addition.