AG / Elf Extensions?

[Xatticus]

The AG and Elf experiment will take us nowhere. I'm not extending either and would look to trade them both. Its so sad that there is no one on this roster who looks like they even have the potential to be a star

We've looked better with them running and involved in the offense then any point during the Vucevic/Fournier experiment as our top scorers.

There is no way Fournier is a top player on this team this season, I'm sorry. Not even in the world of alternative facts.

I'm not sure what are you trying to argue tho.
Evan is best offensive player for a Magic by literally all criterion.
He is leader in PPG , his potential assists are high, him, despite having down year, still has highest TS% among starters.
You could argue that he can't be first offensive option and that argument nobody ever will try to fight againt, but he still is head and shoulders better offensive player than Payton and Gordon .

What metrics do you use when you say " we looked better with them running and involved in the offense then any point during Vučevic/Fournier experiment" ? You use post allstar numbers to praise Payton ( especially ones when Vučević was out) and in same time we will just ignore that in that period STILL lead team in points ( 18 ppg ) on 46% FG and 40% for 3 ?

There is no way Fournier is a top player on this team this season, I'm sorry. Not even in the world of alternative facts.

So who is? Elfrid Payton, 12 ppg ,5,9 apg player who makes lot of defensive mistakes, who had best month of basketball in January, where "his" team lost 12 of 16 games? With below average efficiency and putrid 3 point shooting.
Or it's clear that by efficiency, and raw PPG leader of this team is 17 ppg , 3,2 rpg, 3,2 apg player who at least is league average at efficiency and who , unlike Payton, could at least be starter or 6th man on some contending team.

That's actually all highly disputable. The goal should be for the offense to score at an efficient rate. Any player's specific metrics don't necessarily reflect the team's metrics while said player is on the floor. The team has a higher ORtg when Payton is on the floor than when Fournier is on the floor. The team is actually worse when Fournier is on the floor than when he isn't, due to the significant decline in defense. His counting stats are relatively impressive on this roster because he accumulates the largest share of the minutes. Everyone looks better when they are afforded the playing time to let their per game averages more accurately reflect their per 36 minutes.

It's fairly obvious that coaches like Fournier a lot. He has been given more freedom on the floor than any other player on the roster under both Vogel and Skiles, but that doesn't necessarily mean he has been the most productive player on the team. I'm fairly certain that Fournier could be a much more efficient player in another situation that could create more set shots for him, but we are paying him an awful lot of money to be more than that. At best, I suspect he will be a floor spacer on a good team that can mask his defensive deficiencies by utilizing him in favorable situations. Those types of players don't get paid anywhere near 17 million per year though.

I know that the modern NBA analytics trend is in love with TS%, but the team metrics over the last couple years have pretty clearly established that we have a few other pieces on the roster that are far more conducive to our winning games.

[Xatticus]

No, he really is though. Leader in PPG by more than 2 a game and 2nd in assists. Not saying I like it or it's a good thing, but he is definitely a top player on this roster as constructed now.

Yeah, I think only because most of our roster is pretty weak though. I value what AG and Elf bring to the table more personally, and Vuc improved on defense even though his offense slipped a bit this year. I just expected more from an $85 million guy that is shooting 43/34 (it was almost down to 32% before his recent streak with Vuc out, and everybody is freaking out about AG's shot) .. and AG is also averaging around 16 ppg since his move to PF, so 16.8 isn't really impressive to me. I never thought Fournier was a #1 sort of guy and he's only there because it's one of the only options we have. Ideally I would love to have him in a Crawford or Ginobili role if we had a stable starting five, but I just don't really enjoy his game that much.

What they are bringing to the table really?
Elfrid Payton is one of biggest reasons why all Magic shooters suck at shooting. Because his defender is never actually defending him if he is not in paint. So good team like Hornets just zone him out and use player that supposed to defend him, to double team other players on perimeter.
Him being great passer is another myth among Magic fans. By literally all passing numbmers he is as great passer as... Eric Bledsoe... Now try to remember when was last time somebody said that Bledsoe is great passing PG.People say he is good player, because he is, good scorer for PG -because he is , but literally nobody ever calls him elite passer. Because he is not. Just like Elfrid isn't. By potential assists Payton creates 12,6 assists (and that number could not care less is your teammate Klay Thopson or Zimmerman) . How that measures to elite ones? Well, Harden (22 ), Wall (20), Westbrook (19), Lebron (19), Chris Paul (17) are all create at least 5 potential assists than Payton. Hell, James Harden almost makes double as much chances for his teammates to score than so called great passing PG Payton.

There is also his defense where good shooters burn him because he goes under screens for no reason. Latest example is Hornets game,where good shooter Kemba Walker scored 23 points in 24 min on 13 shots because for some reason Payton kept going under screens for his open 3s.

So when you put all on paper what you have in Payton? 12 ppg playmaker that isn't good defender, isn't that good of a passer and who is one of worst shooters in the league among all guards. So, by default, you don't have future star there.


Aaron is bit better prospect but still missfit in todays NBA because we still have no clue what type of player can help hi reach his full potential. And last time we had that situation, it was with Vučević, where team wasted 4 years and handful of PFs just to "fit " him to the point where we finally figured out that Vučević simply isn't good enough to build around him ( in mean time : Nicholson,Frye, Gordon, Harris, Jason Smith , Davis, Jeff Green,Jason Maxiell, O'Quinn and Ibaka proved that maybe just maybe it's not about them being bad fits, but him being missfit in nba )

Being a facilitator is far more than simply accruing assists or potential assists. It's about the ability to break a defense down. Some notoriously selfish players accumulate a lot of assists simply because they dominate possession. Some centers are exceptional passers out of the double team, but accumulate very few assists because the first pass out of the double team seldom results in an assist.

There is no player on this roster even close to Payton in their ability to break down a defense. He gets past his man with ease, despite his shooting deficiencies. He doesn't require the threat of a shot to break down a defense, he just needs to have his dribble available. Once the first man is beaten, the whole defense has to start rotating to help and the cracks are there to be exploited as long as the ball keeps moving, regardless of who ultimately gets the assist.

As I stated in the previous post, our offense is better when Payton is on the floor than when he isn't. The offense is better when Payton is on the floor than when Fournier is. It does a tremendous disservice to the role of the point guard to reduce it the conversation to 3P%.

[Xatticus]

Everybody is talking about AG's potential and ceiling. But could I ask you this question: what specific potential does he have?

He lacks speed taking to the hoop. I see questional offensive skills out of AG.

Just my opinion.

Now he is the next Blake Griffin, you know? Instead of next Paul George and/or Kawli.

People only forget that AG averaged 12/8 in college and Blake averaged 22/14.

That was Griffin's sophomore season. His Freshman season's statistics were very similar to Gordon's. I have no doubt that Gordon would've developed significantly faster at the offensive end in college, where his superior physical tools and weaker competition would've afforded him far more opportunities in the offense. He actually didn't have any role in our offense aside from garbage man until this year. Skiles ran zero plays for Gordon.

Many players have their growth stunted by premature entry into the NBA, but this is the modern state of the game. It's very difficult for young players to wait an extra year to start getting paid. There are so many incentives for these young players to enter as soon as they know they will get drafted in the first round.

[___Rand___]

wow didn't realize these guys are due extensions. AG isn't worth $25m per. Stupid money. He looks like 2nd year player trying to find his game. He has good nights (lately) but still makes a lot of rookie mistakes for a guy with consistent starter minutes for 3 years. I see why Magic fans would be disappointed. Payton's looked good since Ross trade in games I've seen. He has good court vision, better than our PGs, when he wants to. I just don't know if he is mentally into games all the time from what I've seen. I think this young Orlando team needs good work ethic veteran leadership to build a team culture. At the moment who is the team leader? EP doesn't seem to have that personality.

[Max Power]

I'm not entirely sure I'd extend either. The best pieces of this putrid rebuild by Hennigan are all gone. Payton has had a lot better year than Gordon. Neither guys are stars. If we pay Gordon $100 million we'll still be rebuilding in 2022. Payton should get a moderate deal at best. If we choose a high dollar investment in Gordon we almost sure fire have to trade Fournier and/or Bizmack.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Xatticus]

Some of you are using phrasing like "if Gordon continues to show blah blah blah."

I know we have a few games left this season for him to do that but just making sure we are clear, AG is eligible for an extension THIS summer of 2017. The prediction in this article is that we give him $100M in just a couple months.

Yeah. I like Keith, because he actually follows the team and writes articles about it. That said, it would be nonsensical for us to give that kind of contract to Gordon right now. You can start extending players a year before restricted free agency, but the Magic have control of Gordon for at least two more years. He hasn't shown himself to be anywhere near a player earning that kind of money. We are going to have to pay to develop some of our potential with the expectation that they will continue to improve, but at that kind of money, there is no downside to letting him play out next year before making a decision. That contract would have the potential to become an albatross before the extension actually even kicked in.

[bigpimpatl]

i'm not extending either. Let them get an offer and i'll match if it's worth it.

[JasonBlanchard]

Agreed that AG isn't worth that contract. Or, that we know of. My issue is that we sucked at giving him and Hezonja meaningful minutes to prove themselves. He could be worth it, but I haven't be able to see it, because we mismanaged the hell out of our roster

[pepe1991]

Yeah, I think only because most of our roster is pretty weak though. I value what AG and Elf bring to the table more personally, and Vuc improved on defense even though his offense slipped a bit this year. I just expected more from an $85 million guy that is shooting 43/34 (it was almost down to 32% before his recent streak with Vuc out, and everybody is freaking out about AG's shot) .. and AG is also averaging around 16 ppg since his move to PF, so 16.8 isn't really impressive to me. I never thought Fournier was a #1 sort of guy and he's only there because it's one of the only options we have. Ideally I would love to have him in a Crawford or Ginobili role if we had a stable starting five, but I just don't really enjoy his game that much.

What they are bringing to the table really?
Elfrid Payton is one of biggest reasons why all Magic shooters suck at shooting. Because his defender is never actually defending him if he is not in paint. So good team like Hornets just zone him out and use player that supposed to defend him, to double team other players on perimeter.
Him being great passer is another myth among Magic fans. By literally all passing numbmers he is as great passer as... Eric Bledsoe... Now try to remember when was last time somebody said that Bledsoe is great passing PG.People say he is good player, because he is, good scorer for PG -because he is , but literally nobody ever calls him elite passer. Because he is not. Just like Elfrid isn't. By potential assists Payton creates 12,6 assists (and that number could not care less is your teammate Klay Thopson or Zimmerman) . How that measures to elite ones? Well, Harden (22 ), Wall (20), Westbrook (19), Lebron (19), Chris Paul (17) are all create at least 5 potential assists than Payton. Hell, James Harden almost makes double as much chances for his teammates to score than so called great passing PG Payton.

There is also his defense where good shooters burn him because he goes under screens for no reason. Latest example is Hornets game,where good shooter Kemba Walker scored 23 points in 24 min on 13 shots because for some reason Payton kept going under screens for his open 3s.

So when you put all on paper what you have in Payton? 12 ppg playmaker that isn't good defender, isn't that good of a passer and who is one of worst shooters in the league among all guards. So, by default, you don't have future star there.


Aaron is bit better prospect but still missfit in todays NBA because we still have no clue what type of player can help hi reach his full potential. And last time we had that situation, it was with Vučević, where team wasted 4 years and handful of PFs just to "fit " him to the point where we finally figured out that Vučević simply isn't good enough to build around him ( in mean time : Nicholson,Frye, Gordon, Harris, Jason Smith , Davis, Jeff Green,Jason Maxiell, O'Quinn and Ibaka proved that maybe just maybe it's not about them being bad fits, but him being missfit in nba )

Being a facilitator is far more than simply accruing assists or potential assists. It's about the ability to break a defense down. Some notoriously selfish players accumulate a lot of assists simply because they dominate possession. Some centers are exceptional passers out of the double team, but accumulate very few assists because the first pass out of the double team seldom results in an assist.

There is no player on this roster even close to Payton in their ability to break down a defense. He gets past his man with ease, despite his shooting deficiencies. He doesn't require the threat of a shot to break down a defense, he just needs to have his dribble available. Once the first man is beaten, the whole defense has to start rotating to help and the cracks are there to be exploited as long as the ball keeps moving, regardless of who ultimately gets the assist.

As I stated in the previous post, our offense is better when Payton is on the floor than when he isn't. The offense is better when Payton is on the floor than when Fournier is. It does a tremendous disservice to the role of the point guard to reduce it the conversation to 3P%.

You mixed Elfrid Payton, starter on awful team with Russell Westbrook

[SHAQ32]

After this season not sure how I feel about that contract for AG
.
Out of position or not he's been too passive on offense

[CZ Eddie]

I had a dream last night that we picked Jayson Tatum in the draft this year.
So.... I guess we have to resign AG & ELF now.

[fendilim]

I had a dream last night that we picked Jayson Tatum in the draft this year.
So.... I guess we have to resign AG & ELF now.

Well, its obvious we will keep them and not let them walk for nothing...