Political Roundtable Part XIII

[Wizardspride]

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[sfam]

Again, its always great to trace the roots to any crisis. But it looks really odd frankly to place equal blame on the democrats and republicans when the Republicans were in charge for the 8 YEARS LEADING UP TO THE CRISIS. False equivalency dominates lots of our discussions. Its clear democrats bare some of the blame, but this is sort of false equivalence in the extreme to say the party in charge for 8 years, who was literally asleep at the regulatory switch, is equally at fault.

Point to me the time when Republicans had control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency.

Regulation is an executive branch function. Bush was in charge of this. Again, Republicans rarely take blame for anything. Agreed both sides were involved, but something should be said for being in the leadership position, or not.

Remember "Heck of a job, Brownie" at FEMA? He had equivalents across the regulatory environment.

As Tom Harkin once said (paraphrasing), "Democrats have cronies as well. That's why God created the Department of Commerce. We don't put them in critical positions."

[Induveca]

The arm flailing by the far left is slowing down some, it's nice. Likely their eye of the storm as they regroup, but irregardless nice.

[Wizardspride]

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[dckingsfan]

Again, its always great to trace the roots to any crisis. But it looks really odd frankly to place equal blame on the democrats and republicans when the Republicans were in charge for the 8 YEARS LEADING UP TO THE CRISIS. False equivalency dominates lots of our discussions. Its clear democrats bare some of the blame, but this is sort of false equivalence in the extreme to say the party in charge for 8 years, who was literally asleep at the regulatory switch, is equally at fault.

Point to me the time when Republicans had control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency.

Regulation is an executive branch function. Bush was in charge of this. Again, Republicans rarely take blame for anything. Agreed both sides were involved, but something should be said for being in the leadership position, or not.

Do we need to put percentages here (51R/49D) - is one side slightly more culpable? Not sure where you are going with the argument - both sides had to screw up in a big way and look the other direction.

[sfam]

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More far left arm flailing...

[Wizardspride]

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[Induveca]

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More far left arm flailing...

When the democrats start looking at Graham and McCain as their savior, with Jake Tapper and CNN reporting wouldn't you agree something isn't working? McCain and Graham were labeled semi-demonic warmongers up until they decided to criticize Trump.

Agreed 100%, more far-left arm flailing.

[sfam]

Point to me the time when Republicans had control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency.

Regulation is an executive branch function. Bush was in charge of this. Again, Republicans rarely take blame for anything. Agreed both sides were involved, but something should be said for being in the leadership position, or not.

Do we need to put percentages here (51R/49D) - is one side slightly more culpable? Not sure where you are going with the argument - both sides had to screw up in a big way and look the other direction.

I believe this started with fiscal responsibility and the idea that the Dems were the fiscally irresponsible party. My point is this is clearly not true. As the conversation evolved, it inevitably got to the idea of what I call false equivalence and you call roughly equal guilt (51/49). Sounds like a good place to end it.

[sfam]

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More far left arm flailing...

When the democrats start looking at Graham and McCain as their savior, with Jake Tapper and CNN reporting wouldn't you agree something isn't working?

Agreed more arm flailing.

Actually, when you have a member of the same party of the President asking oversight questions, my sense is its working better than usual.

[sfam]

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A pinko fascist communist whale lover if I've ever seen one.

EDIT: Wow, just in a moment of self-reflection, I see we probably need to redefine normal liberal attack tropes..


The terms "Pinko" and "Communist" should now be associated with tea party folks, yes? Russia love is clearly not a liberal fixation these days. Trump supporters, the new Russia trumpeters?

[dckingsfan]

Regulation is an executive branch function. Bush was in charge of this. Again, Republicans rarely take blame for anything. Agreed both sides were involved, but something should be said for being in the leadership position, or not.

Do we need to put percentages here (51R/49D) - is one side slightly more culpable? Not sure where you are going with the argument - both sides had to screw up in a big way and look the other direction.

I believe this started with fiscal responsibility and the idea that the Dems were the fiscally irresponsible party. My point is this is clearly not true. As the conversation evolved, it inevitably got to the idea of what I call false equivalence and you call roughly equal guilt (51/49). Sounds like a good place to end it.

Ah, I thought we had agreed that both parties were fiscally irresponsible

[sfam]

Do we need to put percentages here (51R/49D) - is one side slightly more culpable? Not sure where you are going with the argument - both sides had to screw up in a big way and look the other direction.

I believe this started with fiscal responsibility and the idea that the Dems were the fiscally irresponsible party. My point is this is clearly not true. As the conversation evolved, it inevitably got to the idea of what I call false equivalence and you call roughly equal guilt (51/49). Sounds like a good place to end it.

Ah, I thought we had agreed that both parties were fiscally irresponsible

Exactly, false equivalence

[Wizardspride]

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More far left arm flailing...

When the democrats start looking at Graham and McCain as their savior, with Jake Tapper and CNN reporting wouldn't you agree something isn't working? McCain and Graham were labeled semi-demonic warmongers up until they decided to criticize Trump.

Agreed 100%, more far-left arm flailing.

Considering you're a Trump supporter I would think you'd absolutely support getting the truth out there.

Trump did accuse the former President of committing a felony after all....

Not something to take lightly

[DCZards]

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More far left arm flailing...

When the democrats start looking at Graham and McCain as their savior, with Jake Tapper and CNN reporting wouldn't you agree something isn't working? McCain and Graham were labeled semi-demonic warmongers up until they decided to criticize Trump.

Agreed 100%, more far-left arm flailing.

Indu, if it turns out that #45 was wrong and essentially lied when he accused Pres. Obama of ordering the wiretapping of Trump Tower would you have a problem with Trump making such a serious allegation without the evidence to back it up?

[dckingsfan]

I believe this started with fiscal responsibility and the idea that the Dems were the fiscally irresponsible party. My point is this is clearly not true. As the conversation evolved, it inevitably got to the idea of what I call false equivalence and you call roughly equal guilt (51/49). Sounds like a good place to end it.

Ah, I thought we had agreed that both parties were fiscally irresponsible

Exactly, false equivalence

Sorry - I missed where this is a false equivalence.

In one case you have a party that creates unsustainable programs. The other party underfunds the government and is fiscally irresponsible by cutting taxes when we have a deficit.

I guess we could leave that as separate issues and give them their own definitions.

But both parties are fiscally irresponsible.

[dckingsfan]

More far left arm flailing...

When the democrats start looking at Graham and McCain as their savior, with Jake Tapper and CNN reporting wouldn't you agree something isn't working? McCain and Graham were labeled semi-demonic warmongers up until they decided to criticize Trump.

Agreed 100%, more far-left arm flailing.

Indu, if it turns out that #45 was wrong and essentially lied when he accused Pres. Obama of ordering the wiretapping of Trump Tower would you have a problem with Trump making such a serious allegation without the evidence to back it up?

He just got caught in one of his serial lies. Really hard to hide them when you are POTUS.

[FAH1223]

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[Induveca]

More far left arm flailing...

When the democrats start looking at Graham and McCain as their savior, with Jake Tapper and CNN reporting wouldn't you agree something isn't working? McCain and Graham were labeled semi-demonic warmongers up until they decided to criticize Trump.

Agreed 100%, more far-left arm flailing.

Indu, if it turns out that #45 was wrong and essentially lied when he accused Pres. Obama of ordering the wiretapping of Trump Tower would you have a problem with Trump making such a serious allegation without the evidence to back it up?

Of course! Honestly there is just such division it's hard to digest anything without viewing it as pure partisan motivation.

For the record, I'd have preferred Rand Paul be in office.

[sfam]

Ah, I thought we had agreed that both parties were fiscally irresponsible

Exactly, false equivalence

Sorry - I missed where this is a false equivalence.

In one case you have a party that creates unsustainable programs. The other party underfunds the government and is fiscally irresponsible by cutting taxes when we have a deficit.

I guess we could leave that as separate issues and give them their own definitions.

But both parties are fiscally irresponsible.

Well again, we can go 'round and round on this, but you've already agreed above that Republicans also create unsustainable programs (the drug benefit for instance, or the Iraq War outside of entitlements). They just don't bother to even try to pay for them - Republicans spout the magical fantasy of market dynamics without any justification at this point - trickle down economics has never worked - there is no factual basis for it. Just look at brownback's Kansas failure for a clear example of conservative governance freed of factual constraints.

To me its fairly clear that Republicans' reputation for fiscal responsibility has long since lost any credibility. The two parties aren't equal there - one seems far more honest about costs and benefits than the other, even if they aren't always able to get the level of tax increases or stimulus wanted. The democrats have a recent history of creating jobs and reducing financial problems (again, you say the financial crisis was equally the responsibility of both parties - false equivalence in my terms when we're talking the end of a second Presidential term - talk about passing the buck!), whereas the Republicans in power have a recent history of losing jobs, and couldn't have been more fiscally irresponsible if they tried - unless the President is a democrat.