What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed?

[LACtdom]

All in all, I think Doc is a slightly poor GM and an above average coach but combined he has been terrible and his own worst enemy.

He doesn't sign players who suit his coaching style and / or has unrealistic expectations of them. My favourite example is J-SMoove at Center which doesn't need a rant but we are constantly playing undersized bench players as bigs. Always playing three guard lineups at the expense of defense and remaining a jump shooting team.

[wco81]

The Ringer NBA podcast briefly talked about the Clippers-Jazz game last night and the potential first-round matchup.

One guy said if the Clippers lose that series, he'd think Doc would be gone.

However, the situation is more complicated because of the impending free agents. They didn't go into it much more than that but it's hard to believe CP and Griffin would take less money elsewhere because Rivers was fired.

If his Microsoft history is any indication, Ballmer seems unlikely to fire Rivers unless the situation truly deteriorates. Clippers still win a lot of games and sell a lot of tickets.

On the other hand, would giving big contracts to CP, Griffin and Reddick (give him at least the annual average that Rivers and Crawford get?) cause the Clippers to pay a lot of luxury taxes in the near future? Of course Ballmer has a lot of money but has he indicated whether he'd pay luxury taxes?

[nickhx2]

i have not seen any indication of his willingness to pay the luxury tax

[QRich3]

Nor any unwillingness lol

FWIW that "one guy" is Bill Simmons, probably the only person in the world that hates Doc more than MTV and Ranma together

[wco81]

No it wasn't Simmons, it was one of the guys he hired.

But Simmons did say on his own podcast that when he started Grantland, Doc had just gotten the job with the Clippers. So in 6 years, with the same group, they haven't gotten it done so he wonders how they can keep going without making changes.

Zach Lowe, who was on Simmons' podcast, doubted CP would leave for any reason, since as president of the union, he negotiated for the deal that he's about to get.

Ballmer has only been the owner for 3 years, through 2 playoffs? So he may be more tolerant than if he's been the owner all 6 years that Doc's been coach.

[nickhx2]

yeah it'd be more correct to say he hasn't mentioned any willingness or unwillingness to pay the luxury tax, which is what i meant to say.

whatever direction he chooses will be some form of surprise to me

[og15]

Ballmer has only been the owner for 3 years, through 2 playoffs? So he may be more tolerant than if he's been the owner all 6 years that Doc's been coach.

Hmm, this is a good point. Also this is Doc's 4th year as coach, not 6th, VDN was the coach the first two seasons.

Back to the point, from Ballmer's POV, all that's happened right now is a disappointing loss to Houston and then an injury plagued series last season. I'm pretty sure everything that happened before isn't that relevant to him, so I can see why the perspectives would be different.

[wco81]

Hmm, they must have been talking about 6th season with this core then.

Doc hasn't done better than VDN has he, won about the same amount of games per season and didn't get any farther than the team under VDN?

[nickhx2]

if that's how you simplify success sure whatever

[Wammy Giveaway]

To give you an idea on both Clipper coach's eras, let's look at their accolades and records:

Vinny Del Negro
- Picked up as a fired coach
- Season 1 (2011): 32-50 (Blake Griffin ROY, All Star Reserve; missed playoffs)
- Season 2 (2012): 40-26 in 66, 50-32 in 82 (Chris Paul, Blake Griffin All Stars; 1st round Game 1 miracle comeback vs. Grizzlies, 2nd round sweep to Spurs)
- Season 3 (2013): 56-26 (Chris Paul, Blake Griffin All Stars; Chris Paul All Star MVP; 16-0 December, 1st Pacific Division; 1st round exit to Grizzlies)

Total Augmented Wins: 138-108 (0.560); average 46-36 per season

Doc RIvers*
- Compensation trade to Celtics, trade gag order between Clippers and Celtics followed (first of its kind)
- Season 1 (2014): 57-25 (Chris Paul, Blake Griffin All Stars; 2nd Pacific Division; Donald Sterling scandal; 2nd round exit to Thunder)
- Season 2 (2015): 56-26 (Chris Paul, Blake Griffin All Stars; 2nd round exit and 3-1 collapse to Rockets; lost DeAndre to Mavericks)
- Season 3 (2016): 53-29 (Chris Paul All Star; Toronto punching incident; ejections to Griffin, Jordan, Austin; 1st round exit to Trail Blazers)

Total Augmented Wins: 166-80 (0.674); average 55-27 per season

* I am not counting this season as it is still ongoing

Standing Out
- Vinny's increase of wins was probably the coincidence of having Chris Paul, even though he only coached the Wake Forest point guard for two seasons. But if you look at when Doc Rivers took over, he did push the Clippers up just one game ahead of Vinny in his first season, then regressed each and every year in heart-breaking fashion. The Sterling scandal and supposed rigged series to favor the Thunder. The 3-1 collapse to the Rockets and losing DeAndre to the Mavs before the Clippers staged a coup to get him back. The Toronto punching incident where Blake Griffin punched his best friend, culminating in a 1st round injured exit to the Trail Blazers. There was just more drama to Doc because he was all business and prideful, desperate for another championship season. I think Doc's first season was more about proving he was better than Vinny. It was also the first season ever where their maximum losing streak was two games.

- I'd like to point out that both Vinny and Doc were protective of their job security. When Vinny tried to trade Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan for Dwight Howard and Kevin Garnett respectively, he was fired. Doc was faced with three Carmelo Anthony rumors; first after Griffin's ejection to the Warriors in the Christmas week of 2013, the second during the Blake Griffin punching incident, and the third after Doc's three ejections and Clippers six-game losing streak in December. The Melo move would have saved his job, but he would be hard pressed about wanting to coach because he cared too much about his son Austin and how he was treated unfairly as an NBA player. You could make the argument that Vinny had a more egregious reason for surrendering their no. 1 draft pick and longest tenured Clipper, whereas Doc preferred making things difficult for himself until the only bet he has left on his table was any or all of his Big 3. It's kind of like saying "You could take away all of my belongings, but the one thing you will never take away from me is my soul, my friends, and my family." I think there's a movie quote equivalent to what I'm saying.

[wco81]

I guess the first round loss did VDN in. Rough to lose the job after a 56-win season.

So better regular season record for Doc but so far comparable playoffs results.

Still the league must look at VDN as not being competent as he hasn't sniffed another job has he? Not even as an assistant somewhere.

[og15]

It wasn't really just the first round loss. Blake got injured in the series and they lost to another 56 win team, so it wasn't really the bad.

The issue was the fact the the players didn't really think very highly of him. Blake complained about his defensive schemes, saying that they changed too much and they could never get consistent with it. They had a very stagnant offense and were a league leader in isolation plays. DJ was boy being used optimally because him and VDN didn't see eye to eye. Chris Paul was a free agent and was not a fan of VDN and the team wanted to have Paul back.

[nickhx2]

context and detail is an amazing thing

[Wammy Giveaway]

Context and detail obscure face value to a point you want to forgive the team for having a disappointing season.

My motto is this: "Never forgive or forget, just forward on."

[wco81]

They may like him better but they haven't produced better results for him yet in the playoffs.

Last year the injuries derailed them so they get a pass.

They had major injuries this year though they're healthy now. But they dropped to less-favorable seeding for now, which could mean a tough first round series.

[nickhx2]

being results oriented in a playoff format that categorizes itself into only 4 rounds ignores the actual progress made by doc rivers.

not all teams happen into god-mode steph curry/draymond green seasons, or signing kevin durant for little exchange. for the other plebian teams in this league, measuring which coach has done better through player-progress, system-progress, or progress of efficiency is all we're allowed to have.

and i shouldn't have to say it but that's ignoring the simultaneous and frequent sacrifice of progress via doc rivers the gm.

[Quake Griffin]

Doc is a better coach than Vinny. I don't give a **** how you use the Wild West and not making it out of the second round to try and lump them together. It's not going to happen and NOBODY associated with the Clippers (fans, writers, etc. etc.) would even dream of going back to Vinny. It's a troll argument used by Laker/ Warrior/ and other Clipper haters to get under our skin. It's put together with spit, glue and [as you can read up there] real gm talk about whether they should get a pass or not.


I think Doc's time is up and that he should be fired at this point but even then, I would in no way insinuate that Vinny is who he is as a coach.

The Clippers made one transition - from awful to somewhat competent. They found trouble going from competent to one of the elite franchises in the game....write that in for about 20 or more other franchises in this league. More News at 11.

[wco81]

Where did I say go back to VDN?

I said Doc hasn't gone further than VDN in the playoffs.

And the Clippers weren't losing to the Warriors or Spurs in the playoffs. They were losing to the Rockets and Trailblazers (after key injuries of course).

Right now, if the playoffs started, Clippers would play Utah. If they lost in the first-round to the Jazz, which are an up and coming team but not considered a title contender, would it be excusable for Doc, even though there were key injuries to CP and Griffin which caused them to fall in the standings?

Warriors fans would be seriously disappointed if they lost in the first round but the way they're playing these days and the uncertainty of KD's status, that's a pretty good possibility.

In fact, the #7 Memphis is only 2 games behind the Clippers. Maybe Doc won't look as bad if the team fell to #6 or #7 and lost to the Rockets, Warriors or Spurs.

These days, they might have a pretty good shot against the Warriors -- KD just got out of a big knee brace this week, took some set shots the other day (no jumpers or layups) so his return to high-level form by the first-round is far from guaranteed.

[Quake Griffin]

You said he hasn't done better. Well, I'm answering you, nobody would swap them as coaches whether you think he hasn't done better or not. So what's the point in trotting that comment out there? It's not to get into a quality discussion about their coaching methods. If so, excuse me...but I didnt gather that from any post above and I will sit back and wait for that conversation to commence.

Further, my post said Doc should be fired.
I don't need a lesson in what should "get a pass" or what shouldn't.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[wco81]

NBA coaches have to deliver results, don't they?

Doc could point to better coaching methods and Xs and Os than his predecessor. He may also be able to point to advanced stats which show that the team is better in a lot of advanced metrics than before he took over.

Maybe all those would be convincing to the owner. Or maybe the owner just sees that during the time he's owned the team, it hasn't advanced past the second round of the playoffs. Or that it hasn't advanced past the second round with this core group of star players.

Now he's going to write 2 huge checks for the two best players and maybe a big check for Reddick. Well if the reports are true, there's already a verbal agreement so maybe it's moot, he's fine with this team and willing to pay a lot of money to keep it together. That could be good news for Doc.

Of course all NBA teams are facing similar big decisions with this new CBA. Warriors are going to give $200 million to Curry after this year, even though he may never come close to the player he was during his MVP seasons. Toronto has a clear ceiling of the ECF but they have to look at giving $200 million to a 31-year old Lowry.

In the NBA though, teams will pay the stars but swap coaches all the time.