2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[bondom34]

Then in that case, he might be improving them by 20 wins. But that doesn't mean he's improving a 45 win team to 65.

And it doesn't mean he wouldn't. He wasn't more valuable last year, but was on a better team.

For the record, it's 20 wins to an "average team" we're talking about here.

This isn't what was brought up, or what I was talking about. I was talking about 20 wins to a team going to 45 vs 55.

[PCProductions]

And it doesn't mean he wouldn't. He wasn't more valuable last year, but was on a better team.

For the record, it's 20 wins to an "average team" we're talking about here.

This isn't what was brought up, or what I was talking about. I was talking about 20 wins to a team going to 45 vs 55.

Well it's all relative to what team you're improving, isn't it? Improving a team from 62 wins to 82 wins is probably harder than it is from 10 to 30, no?

[bondom34]

For the record, it's 20 wins to an "average team" we're talking about here.

This isn't what was brought up, or what I was talking about. I was talking about 20 wins to a team going to 45 vs 55.

Well it's all relative to what team you're improving, isn't it? Improving a team from 62 wins to 82 wins is probably harder than it is from 10 to 30, no?

A 10 win team isn't an average team, and a 62 win team isn't an average team no? I mean, I get there's a max to wins, but there's a min as well.

[BallerTalk]

Wow. At the start of the year, i didnt see people claiming that Houston has a stacked roster. In fact, I saw a lot of posters predicting that wouldnt even make the playoffs. Now apparently they are apparently stacked...

That's what makes that whole narrative so comical.

[ken6199]

Wow. At the start of the year, i didnt see people claiming that Houston has a stacked roster. In fact, I saw a lot of posters predicting that wouldnt even make the playoffs. Now apparently they are apparently stacked...

That's what makes that whole narrative so comical.

- Harden don't play D
- They lost Dwight
- Anderson only plays 40 games a season, and he can't guard anyone down low
- Gordon only plays 30 games a season, and he can't guard anyone outside
- MDA is out of date, he got lucky with Nash then exposed in LA and NY
- Moray is failing as a GM
- Beverly is overrated as a defender, he is just a pest and he gets owned by Curry anyway
- Ariza is declining
- Brewer is useless
- Nene is 60 year old
- They have no backup PG
- They either get super hot or they're done, one tricky pony

Okay I obviously exaggerated a bit, or did I?

[MoMan24]

Wow. At the start of the year, i didnt see people claiming that Houston has a stacked roster. In fact, I saw a lot of posters predicting that wouldnt even make the playoffs. Now apparently they are apparently stacked...

That's what makes that whole narrative so comical.

I agree 100%. Everytime I hear them say that I get confused, like who on the Rockets besides Harden is an all-star? Another comical thing is how they say Westbrook has no one around him. Basically he is dead lifting absolute garbage to like 50 wins. But Harden has a stacked roster. I'm a Raptors fan so I have no horse in this race, just what I notice is going on with the media.

[duncan21]

Spurs without Kawhi or even Aldridge would still be a 50 win team. They wouldnt go anywhere in the playoffs but they would win 50 games for sure.

Spurs are like a great college program, doesent matter who the players are, they will have a good team with their coaching and system alone.

ARE U KIDDING ME ??????

[RightToCensor]

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17131591/2016-summer-forecast-west-standings

ESPN projected the Rockets to win 41 games and sit at the 8th seed. We're on pace to win 56 games and will likely be the 3rd seed in the West.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2017-nba-predictions/

FiveThirtyEight projected the Rockets to have the 8th best record in the West with 45 wins. Houston's point differential of +6.8 (3rd in the NBA) is 5.3 points higher compared to FTE's preseason projection which was +1.5. That's the highest difference of point differential from FiveThirtyEight's preseason projections. I'm not planning on using this as a narrative, but Golden State, Cleveland, and Oklahoma City have all done slightly worse than what was projected from them in the preseason.

[NZB2323]

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17131591/2016-summer-forecast-west-standings

ESPN projected the Rockets to win 41 games and sit at the 8th seed. We're on pace to win 56 games and will likely be the 3rd seed in the West.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2017-nba-predictions/

FiveThirtyEight projected the Rockets to have the 8th best record in the West with 45 wins. Houston's point differential of +6.8 (3rd in the NBA) is 5.3 points higher compared to FTE's preseason projection which was +1.5. That's the highest difference of point differential from FiveThirtyEight's preseason projections. I'm not planning on using this as a narrative, but Golden State, Cleveland, and Oklahoma City have all done slightly worse than what was projected from them in the preseason.

I'm so sick of hearing this argument. Last year was a massive disappointment for the Rockets. Mike D'Antoni's last coaching job was a massive disappointment. Those disappointments led to lower expectations. The fact that Lebron, Kawhi, and Westbrook had much better seasons than Harden last year does not make Harden the MVP this year.

[NZB2323]

Spurs without Kawhi or even Aldridge would still be a 50 win team. They wouldnt go anywhere in the playoffs but they would win 50 games for sure.

Spurs are like a great college program, doesent matter who the players are, they will have a good team with their coaching and system alone.

Yeah, that Tim Duncan guy should never have won MVP. He's a completely overrated player. Also, the Warriors have a great coach and a good system so Steph Curry should never have won MVP.

[RCM88x]

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17131591/2016-summer-forecast-west-standings

ESPN projected the Rockets to win 41 games and sit at the 8th seed. We're on pace to win 56 games and will likely be the 3rd seed in the West.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2017-nba-predictions/

FiveThirtyEight projected the Rockets to have the 8th best record in the West with 45 wins. Houston's point differential of +6.8 (3rd in the NBA) is 5.3 points higher compared to FTE's preseason projection which was +1.5. That's the highest difference of point differential from FiveThirtyEight's preseason projections. I'm not planning on using this as a narrative, but Golden State, Cleveland, and Oklahoma City have all done slightly worse than what was projected from them in the preseason.

Yes, lets give someone MVP for having a bad season last year and having low expectations....

[Screwston]

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17131591/2016-summer-forecast-west-standings

ESPN projected the Rockets to win 41 games and sit at the 8th seed. We're on pace to win 56 games and will likely be the 3rd seed in the West.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2017-nba-predictions/

FiveThirtyEight projected the Rockets to have the 8th best record in the West with 45 wins. Houston's point differential of +6.8 (3rd in the NBA) is 5.3 points higher compared to FTE's preseason projection which was +1.5. That's the highest difference of point differential from FiveThirtyEight's preseason projections. I'm not planning on using this as a narrative, but Golden State, Cleveland, and Oklahoma City have all done slightly worse than what was projected from them in the preseason.

Yes, lets give someone MVP for having a bad season last year and having low expectations....

Better than giving it to a guy who takes nights off, n cries about his teammates even tho he just won a ring. Harden is gonna finish with a better record than him

29, 7 n 6 is a bad season, whats a good season then? 25, 8 n 8?

[bondom34]

Maybe Portland should be in the playoffs. Because everyone thought that before the season and how players actually play doesn't matter, it's how we all perceived them before the season, whether we were wrong or not.

[RightToCensor]

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17131591/2016-summer-forecast-west-standings

ESPN projected the Rockets to win 41 games and sit at the 8th seed. We're on pace to win 56 games and will likely be the 3rd seed in the West.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2017-nba-predictions/

FiveThirtyEight projected the Rockets to have the 8th best record in the West with 45 wins. Houston's point differential of +6.8 (3rd in the NBA) is 5.3 points higher compared to FTE's preseason projection which was +1.5. That's the highest difference of point differential from FiveThirtyEight's preseason projections. I'm not planning on using this as a narrative, but Golden State, Cleveland, and Oklahoma City have all done slightly worse than what was projected from them in the preseason.

Yes, lets give someone MVP for having a bad season last year and having low expectations....

Harden averaged 29/7/6 last season, which at that point had only been done by Oscar, Michael, and Lebron. Individually, he didn't have a bad season besides coming in slightly overweight. He didn't make an All-NBA team because the Rockets under-performed and the Warriors overachieved leading Thompson to get an undeserved spot on the 3rd Team.

Part of Harden's 2015 case was that his team had low expectations and then they ended up the 2nd seed in the West with Dwight Howard only playing half the games. MVP cases can be made by players who've turned a non-threatening team to a real contender. His case isn't just that his team is overachieving, he's still averaging 29/11/8, he's gonna win at least 55 games while playing all 82 games, and he's the engine that drives the second greatest team in NBA History in ORtg. Does that not sound like a potential MVP season any other year?

[K_chile22]

According to basketball reference the Rockets are now about tied for the most efficient offense of all time (I belive Basketball reference just rounds to the tenths place) with the 87 Lakers.

Harden has accounted for nearly half the Rockets total points this season.

So Harden has accounted for almost half of the points of the most efficient offense of all time. That's pretty damn valuable.

[BallerTalk]

I'm so sick of hearing this argument. Last year was a massive disappointment for the Rockets. Mike D'Antoni's last coaching job was a massive disappointment. Those disappointments led to lower expectations. The fact that Lebron, Kawhi, and Westbrook had much better seasons than Harden last year does not make Harden the MVP this year.

You are conflating two separate issues.
No one is saying that last season's disappointment or preseason expectations are the reason Harden should be MVP.
His case for the award is self-evident. He's having an outstanding, and at times historic, season personally while leading his team to one of the best records in the league.
That is the essence of what an MVP is.

The preseason expectations are being brought up to counter the growing false narrative that Harden's team success should be discounted because he has some mythical star-studded cast around him.

[bondom34]

Using RPM predictions, ESPN had Houston as the 4 seed.

http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/17871312/projected-records-win-totals-standings-every-nba-team-2016-17-season

So again we see that statistically, it was there. People bought in to the underperformance last year.

Edit: Actually this even had Denver at 8. Seeding was
1. GSW
2. Spurs
3. Utah
4. Houston
5. Clippers'
6. OKC
7. Portland
8. Denver
9. Memphis
10. Dallas
11. Sacramento
12. New Orleans
13. Dallas
14. Phoenix
15. Lakers

[NZB2323]

I'm so sick of hearing this argument. Last year was a massive disappointment for the Rockets. Mike D'Antoni's last coaching job was a massive disappointment. Those disappointments led to lower expectations. The fact that Lebron, Kawhi, and Westbrook had much better seasons than Harden last year does not make Harden the MVP this year.

You are conflating two separate issues.
No one is saying that last season's disappointment or preseason expectations are the reason Harden should be MVP.
His case for the award is self-evident. He's having an outstanding, and at times historic, season personally while leading his team to one of the best records in the league.
That is the essence of what an MVP is.

The preseason expectations are being brought up to counter the growing false narrative that Harden's team success should be discounted because he has some mythical star-studded cast around him.

Out of Harden, Westbrook, Lebron, and Kawhi, I don't think any of their cases should be discounted. You could make arguments for any of them, and the season isn't over yet.

[bondom34]

I'm so sick of hearing this argument. Last year was a massive disappointment for the Rockets. Mike D'Antoni's last coaching job was a massive disappointment. Those disappointments led to lower expectations. The fact that Lebron, Kawhi, and Westbrook had much better seasons than Harden last year does not make Harden the MVP this year.

You are conflating two separate issues.
No one is saying that last season's disappointment or preseason expectations are the reason Harden should be MVP.
His case for the award is self-evident. He's having an outstanding, and at times historic, season personally while leading his team to one of the best records in the league.
That is the essence of what an MVP is.

The preseason expectations are being brought up to counter the growing false narrative that Harden's team success should be discounted because he has some mythical star-studded cast around him.

Out of Harden, Westbrook, Lebron, and Kawhi, I don't think any of their cases should be discounted. You could make arguments for any of them, and the season isn't over yet.

Yep. All 4 have a good case, I don't see why any one needs to be discounted, diminished, or dismissed.

[gmoney411]

You are conflating two separate issues.
No one is saying that last season's disappointment or preseason expectations are the reason Harden should be MVP.
His case for the award is self-evident. He's having an outstanding, and at times historic, season personally while leading his team to one of the best records in the league.
That is the essence of what an MVP is.

The preseason expectations are being brought up to counter the growing false narrative that Harden's team success should be discounted because he has some mythical star-studded cast around him.

Out of Harden, Westbrook, Lebron, and Kawhi, I don't think any of their cases should be discounted. You could make arguments for any of them, and the season isn't over yet.

Yep. All 4 have a good case, I don't see why any one needs to be discounted, diminished, or dismissed.

To pick a winner. I'm all for focusing on the positives over the negatives but the negatives need to come into play.