2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[ProfessorJM]

If this was 2006 and you were talking about Nash and Kobe then I'd understand, but Harden is averaging 29/11/8 while anchoring an offense that's second All-Time in ORtg. He's the only player in NBA History to have multiple 50 point triple-double games, he's leading the league in APG, he leads the league in double-doubles (53 out of 68 games), and is second in triple-doubles (17). Harden's statline is nothing to look over, and his team will be remembered greatly for their over-the-top shooting.

I agree with you completely, but if Houston does not win the championship, this season will be a great season, but not one remembered for the ages. Of course, if Houston does win, the narrative (which really impacts history more than any stat on its own) changes and you bet it will be remembered. I'm pretty confident in this assessment but I could be wrong to be fair because it's a prediction.

[red96]

How dumb will it look when Harden goes from not making the All NBA team to MVP? There's obviously a flaw in voting there and too many times they have often got the 2nd and 3rd teams wrong. Harden was obviously not a non All NBAer last year. You don't go from not being 1 of the top 6 guards in your 7th season to being MVP (or top 2 finish) in your 8th season. It simply does not happen when the production was already there to begin with. It's even more egregious when you realize that he made the 1st team the year before.

Pretty sure it won't look dumb at all, Steve Nash won MVP in 2004-2005 after not making the ALL NBA team in the 2003-2004 season prior. And he was around his 8th season in the league, too. And he ALSO had previously been on the All nba team a season before. There's not a single person who said the NBA looks dumb for this.

Oh how ironic, guess what got nash the mvp that year after not being an All nba caliber player the year prior - suddenly D'antoni coached his team

Note: Rose all won MVP after missing all nba team year prior. He was in the league just a few years, though

It already looks dumb and Nash's situation was different. When Nash went to PHX his stats improved across the board and I don't think he ever made all-nba before then. Harden was already all-nba 1st team, and then the very next year he's left off dispite having an (arguably) better season than the one prior (29,6,7.5 last season), but Klay gets on? It was ridiculous then, and even more so now.

[ProfessorJM]

How dumb will it look when Harden goes from not making the All NBA team to MVP? There's obviously a flaw in voting there and too many times they have often got the 2nd and 3rd teams wrong. Harden was obviously not a non All NBAer last year. You don't go from not being 1 of the top 6 guards in your 7th season to being MVP (or top 2 finish) in your 8th season. It simply does not happen when the production was already there to begin with. It's even more egregious when you realize that he made the 1st team the year before.

Pretty sure it won't look dumb at all, Steve Nash won MVP in 2004-2005 after not making the ALL NBA team in the 2003-2004 season prior. And he was around his 8th season in the league, too. And he ALSO had previously been on the All nba team a season before. There's not a single person who said the NBA looks dumb for this.

Oh how ironic, guess what got nash the mvp that year after not being an All nba caliber player the year prior - suddenly D'antoni coached his team

Note: Rose all won MVP after missing all nba team year prior. He was in the league just a few years, though

Are you disagreeing with my sentiment or the finer detail? Because Harden had already made two 1st team All NBA and a 3rd team before his snub last year. Nash only made two 3rd team All NBA before jumping into 1st team and MVP in 05.

Are you saying that Harden did indeed deserve to be left off last year? Or that Nash and Harden benefit greatly from D'Antoni's system and in hindsight don't deserve those accolades?

Either way, Harden deserved to be All NBA last year. These voters continually nitpick if and when team records come into play. Blazers won only 3 more games last year. Kings lost 10 more games last year.

Both Nash and Harden do benefit somewhat from the system, but they still have to perform in that system and make it work. A lot of players benefit from the right coach/team/system, etc. Easy examples are say a great QB impacting another receiver's stats, a great O-line impacting a runner, etc. There are always variables at play, you have to be a smart voter to take everything into account and vote accordingly.

[Doctor MJ]

This though, is a thing that's become really annoying to me. Sorry it just has.

Westbrook leads the league in uncontested rebounds, so yeah, he's a stat padder.

"Uncontested" rebounds are not stat padding if it makes his team better.

What is their PPP when he rebounds compared to when he doesn't? What is their W% relative to his "undconteste" rebound rate?

If you can prove that him having more uncontested rebounds has zero or negative effect on his team, then it is stat padding.

I actually think it may have been a bad thing for the Thunder but I don't think it's fair to call it stat padding. It's a reasonable thing to try given Westbrook's unique abilities but I question the effect it has on his teammates sense of agency.


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[bwgood77]

I think Harden will win the MVP, but in the future it will largely be forgotten in the context of Westbrook's season. Harden is having a great year, but in terms of MVP history and lore, it's just another award. Westbrook's season may be remembered for a long time, especially as it connects with Durant leaving and that whole narrative, which is another thing that I think will not be forgotten for a long time. (Because Durant will be an easy HOF player, but this move will forever be part of his story)

True

Breaking records is more impressive, but historic seasons will always be remembered. Check out how many times a player has averaged 28, 11 and 8 in a season.

http://bkref.com/tiny/Y9Hnv

Both should be remembered for having historic season regardless of who wins MVP.

[Teckon]

I think if Westbrook gets the triple double record (he is now 8 games away from it with 14 games left), averages a triple double and OKC finishes strong, he's going to win the award.

Westbrook had a 30.3 PER coming into tonight's game. He's just on a mission right now.

I don't think we will ever see this happen again in the NBA if Westbrook does it this year. A triple-double season playing at under a 100.0 pace. Oscar played at like a 127 pace the year he averaged a triple double.

We are witnessing stats history, if Westbrook can stay on this pace.

When Oscar averaged a triple double in season, there was no 3 point line then. The 3 point line/shot is introduced in NBA in 1979-80 season. Without a 3 point line, most rebound is nearer to the rim where the big men are. Defense will be tighter. It is harder to get the 30 PER back then.

Not only did Oscar being the first player to average a triple double in a season, he is the first player to average a triple double in his first 5 seasons!!

Year Team GP MPG FG% FT% RPG APG PPG
1960–61 Cincinnati 71 42.7 .473 .822 10.1 9.7 30.5
1961–62 Cincinnati 79 44.3 .478 .803 12.5 11.4 30.8
1962–63 Cincinnati 80 44.0 .518 .810 10.4 9.5 28.3
1963–64 Cincinnati 79 45.1 .483 .853 9.9 11.0 31.4
1964–65 Cincinnati 75 45.6 .480 .839 9.0 11.5 30.4

If Westbrook managed to average a triple double in a season, he will be remembered as the Second Player to do it.
Do not diminish what Oscar has done.

[ProfessorJM]

I think if Westbrook gets the triple double record (he is now 8 games away from it with 14 games left), averages a triple double and OKC finishes strong, he's going to win the award.

Westbrook had a 30.3 PER coming into tonight's game. He's just on a mission right now.

I don't think we will ever see this happen again in the NBA if Westbrook does it this year. A triple-double season playing at under a 100.0 pace. Oscar played at like a 127 pace the year he averaged a triple double.

We are witnessing stats history, if Westbrook can stay on this pace.

When Oscar averaged a triple double in season, there was no 3 point line then. The 3 point line/shot is introduced in NBA in 1979-80 season. Without a 3 point line, most rebound is nearer to the rim where the big men are. Defense will be tighter. It is harder to get the 30 PER back then.

Not only did Oscar being the first player to average a triple double in a season, he is the first player to average a triple double in his first 5 seasons!!

Year Team GP MPG FG% FT% RPG APG PPG
1960–61 Cincinnati 71 42.7 .473 .822 10.1 9.7 30.5
1961–62 Cincinnati 79 44.3 .478 .803 12.5 11.4 30.8
1962–63 Cincinnati 80 44.0 .518 .810 10.4 9.5 28.3
1963–64 Cincinnati 79 45.1 .483 .853 9.9 11.0 31.4
1964–65 Cincinnati 75 45.6 .480 .839 9.0 11.5 30.4

If Westbrook managed to average a triple double in a season, he will be remembered as the Second Player to do it.
Do not diminish what Oscar has done.

It was harder for that specific stat, but also easier for a triple double I believe. Any stat that has that small a club is not diminished very much at all with a single new member in my mind. It's still impressive.

Robertson season: 71.4 average rebounds a game, last year in the NBA: 43.8 rebounds a game
23.9 assists versus 22.3 assists this year
118.8 points versus 102.7 points

I don't know this year's stats but I imagine it's not too anomalous compared to last year, and possessions (hence opportunities) are also likely to reflect these numbers.

[Screwston]

Westbrook leads the league in uncontested rebounds, so yeah, he's a stat padder.

"Uncontested" rebounds are not stat padding if it makes his team better.

What is their PPP when he rebounds compared to when he doesn't? What is their W% relative to his "undconteste" rebound rate?

If you can prove that him having more uncontested rebounds has zero or negative effect on his team, then it is stat padding.

I actually think it may have been a bad thing for the Thunder but I don't think it's fair to call it stat padding. It's a reasonable thing to try given Westbrook's unique abilities but I question the effect it has on his teammates sense of agency.


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Its not bad, they do it so he can start a fastbreak n push the ball faster, if Cousins was on his team, they wouldn't do that, Rockets tend to the same when they can with Harden.

[HotRocks34]

I think if Westbrook gets the triple double record (he is now 8 games away from it with 14 games left), averages a triple double and OKC finishes strong, he's going to win the award.

Westbrook had a 30.3 PER coming into tonight's game. He's just on a mission right now.

I don't think we will ever see this happen again in the NBA if Westbrook does it this year. A triple-double season playing at under a 100.0 pace. Oscar played at like a 127 pace the year he averaged a triple double.

We are witnessing stats history, if Westbrook can stay on this pace.

When Oscar averaged a triple double in season, there was no 3 point line then. The 3 point line/shot is introduced in NBA in 1979-80 season. Without a 3 point line, most rebound is nearer to the rim where the big men are. Defense will be tighter. It is harder to get the 30 PER back then.

Not only did Oscar being the first player to average a triple double in a season, he is the first player to average a triple double in his first 5 seasons!!

Year Team GP MPG FG% FT% RPG APG PPG
1960–61 Cincinnati 71 42.7 .473 .822 10.1 9.7 30.5
1961–62 Cincinnati 79 44.3 .478 .803 12.5 11.4 30.8
1962–63 Cincinnati 80 44.0 .518 .810 10.4 9.5 28.3
1963–64 Cincinnati 79 45.1 .483 .853 9.9 11.0 31.4
1964–65 Cincinnati 75 45.6 .480 .839 9.0 11.5 30.4

If Westbrook managed to average a triple double in a season, he will be remembered as the Second Player to do it.
Do not diminish what Oscar has done.

Full respect for Oscar, and you make a great point on the three-point line, but I think Westbrook is on a different level right now. With all due respect to Oscar.

Oscar Triple Double Year if playing at Westbrook pace (approximate figures)
24.1/9.8/8.9

That's really good, but Harden's numbers this year are around that, or better.

Also this:

Westbrook this year =======> 30.3 PER
Oscar triple double year ====> 26.0 PER

Now, to be fair to Oscar I think some stats were not kept back then (BLK, STL, etc) that would help his PER be even higher.

Still, Westbrook is just out of this world. I sincerely believe that no one will ever do this again, at least at this pace. I think this is a one-fer.

So, I'm not trying to disrespect Oscar. It's more about recognizing the freak nature of what Westbrook is doing.

I've always been a Westbrook fan, so I hope he gets the triple doubles in a season record and I hope he averages a triple double. Maybe people will finally get off his back then.

[ChartFiction]

If Westbrook manages to finish strong and gets 4th seed and the triple double record, he deserves it 100%.

[ken6199]

How dumb will it look when Harden goes from not making the All NBA team to MVP? There's obviously a flaw in voting there and too many times they have often got the 2nd and 3rd teams wrong. Harden was obviously not a non All NBAer last year. You don't go from not being 1 of the top 6 guards in your 7th season to being MVP (or top 2 finish) in your 8th season. It simply does not happen when the production was already there to begin with. It's even more egregious when you realize that he made the 1st team the year before.

Pretty sure it won't look dumb at all, Steve Nash won MVP in 2004-2005 after not making the ALL NBA team in the 2003-2004 season prior. And he was around his 8th season in the league, too. And he ALSO had previously been on the All nba team a season before. There's not a single person who said the NBA looks dumb for this.

Oh how ironic, guess what got nash the mvp that year after not being an All nba caliber player the year prior - suddenly D'antoni coached his team

Note: Rose all won MVP after missing all nba team year prior. He was in the league just a few years, though

It already looks dumb and Nash's situation was different. When Nash went to PHX his stats improved across the board and I don't think he ever made all-nba before then. Harden was already all-nba 1st team, and then the very next year he's left off dispite having an (arguably) better season than the one prior (29,6,7.5 last season), but Klay gets on? It was ridiculous then, and even more so now.

Not making the 3rd team while averaging stats 29/6/7.5 only Lebron, MJ, O achieved in the history, and as the only player to do that while playing all 82 games, behind Klay who was a 3rd best player on his team, it was a crime. It's not just a snub, it's a historical blunder, a permanent shame on NBA history.

He also led the league in total points, 2nd in ppg, dragging a misfit Dwight and a drunk Ty Lawson. Lot of the games we had Marcus Thorton score the 2nd most points for us, just let that sink in.

This is 10x disgusting than him losing to Curry on the MVP which was actually a lot more acceptable. Such a historical, unconscionable disrespecting from the league to a team. They let the general perception of 'oh such a cancer team, and Harden don't play D' get over their head. They need to take a serious look on this voting system.

[Edrees]

How dumb will it look when Harden goes from not making the All NBA team to MVP? There's obviously a flaw in voting there and too many times they have often got the 2nd and 3rd teams wrong. Harden was obviously not a non All NBAer last year. You don't go from not being 1 of the top 6 guards in your 7th season to being MVP (or top 2 finish) in your 8th season. It simply does not happen when the production was already there to begin with. It's even more egregious when you realize that he made the 1st team the year before.

Pretty sure it won't look dumb at all, Steve Nash won MVP in 2004-2005 after not making the ALL NBA team in the 2003-2004 season prior. And he was around his 8th season in the league, too. And he ALSO had previously been on the All nba team a season before. There's not a single person who said the NBA looks dumb for this.

Oh how ironic, guess what got nash the mvp that year after not being an All nba caliber player the year prior - suddenly D'antoni coached his team

Note: Rose all won MVP after missing all nba team year prior. He was in the league just a few years, though

Are you disagreeing with my sentiment or the finer detail? Because Harden had already made two 1st team All NBA and a 3rd team before his snub last year. Nash only made two 3rd team All NBA before jumping into 1st team and MVP in 05.

Are you saying that Harden did indeed deserve to be left off last year? Or that Nash and Harden benefit greatly from D'Antoni's system and in hindsight don't deserve those accolades?

Either way, Harden deserved to be All NBA last year. These voters continually nitpick if and when team records come into play. Blazers won only 3 more games last year. Kings lost 10 more games last year.

I'm not saying Harden and Nash didn't deserve the accolades, it was just something funny I realized that I never thought of before.

I was just saying Harden being off the All NBA team for a team down year isn't some ludicrous concept, even if it's not the correct choice, it isn't some wild crazy inexcusable event that the NBA should be embarassed about, there were some reasons backing it up. Anyway this has no real bearing on this thread so I won't really continue the discussion here.

[sophie23]

If this was 2006 and you were talking about Nash and Kobe then I'd understand, but Harden is averaging 29/11/8 while anchoring an offense that's second All-Time in ORtg. He's the only player in NBA History to have multiple 50 point triple-double games, he's leading the league in APG, he leads the league in double-doubles (53 out of 68 games), and is second in triple-doubles (17). Harden's statline is nothing to look over, and his team will be remembered greatly for their over-the-top shooting.

So if everything is so great, why they are just 3rd seed?

What if James Harden last year has a great season as it should be? There wouldnt be much talking about overachievement and carrying the team.

Then for his Mvp case it is better they played not to their expectations last year, because winning spread between this year and last year is huge.

[inquisitive]

This straw poll might make Harden feel better
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/245323/Straw-Poll-Of-106-Media-Members-Shows-Harden-Ahead-Of-Westbrook-In-MVP-Race

[K_chile22]

If this was 2006 and you were talking about Nash and Kobe then I'd understand, but Harden is averaging 29/11/8 while anchoring an offense that's second All-Time in ORtg. He's the only player in NBA History to have multiple 50 point triple-double games, he's leading the league in APG, he leads the league in double-doubles (53 out of 68 games), and is second in triple-doubles (17). Harden's statline is nothing to look over, and his team will be remembered greatly for their over-the-top shooting.

So if everything is so great, why they are just 3rd seed?

Because they play in the West
Would be first in the east

[bondom34]

"Uncontested" rebounds are not stat padding if it makes his team better.

What is their PPP when he rebounds compared to when he doesn't? What is their W% relative to his "undconteste" rebound rate?

If you can prove that him having more uncontested rebounds has zero or negative effect on his team, then it is stat padding.

I actually think it may have been a bad thing for the Thunder but I don't think it's fair to call it stat padding. It's a reasonable thing to try given Westbrook's unique abilities but I question the effect it has on his teammates sense of agency.


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Its not bad, they do it so he can start a fastbreak n push the ball faster, if Cousins was on his team, they wouldn't do that, Rockets tend to the same when they can with Harden.

Thing is, they've always done it too. I believe Scott Brooks talked about it on the Lowe post like a month ago, they did it since he was really young. It's just now people are noticing it, because OKC's trying to run since their half court offense is generally bad now (or at least compared to how it was earlier).

[red96]

If this was 2006 and you were talking about Nash and Kobe then I'd understand, but Harden is averaging 29/11/8 while anchoring an offense that's second All-Time in ORtg. He's the only player in NBA History to have multiple 50 point triple-double games, he's leading the league in APG, he leads the league in double-doubles (53 out of 68 games), and is second in triple-doubles (17). Harden's statline is nothing to look over, and his team will be remembered greatly for their over-the-top shooting.

So if everything is so great, why they are just 3rd seed?

Because they play in the West
Would be first in the east

This. Being behind one of, if not the most stacked team in nba history, and another great team with the best coach of all time isn't so bad. They are a few games ahead of a loaded, reigning, nba champs with LBJ. Harden is carrying his team better than great LBJ. Who called that? The Rockets are also better on both sides of the ball.

[Doctor MJ]

"Uncontested" rebounds are not stat padding if it makes his team better.

What is their PPP when he rebounds compared to when he doesn't? What is their W% relative to his "undconteste" rebound rate?

If you can prove that him having more uncontested rebounds has zero or negative effect on his team, then it is stat padding.

I actually think it may have been a bad thing for the Thunder but I don't think it's fair to call it stat padding. It's a reasonable thing to try given Westbrook's unique abilities but I question the effect it has on his teammates sense of agency.


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Its not bad, they do it so he can start a fastbreak n push the ball faster, if Cousins was on his team, they wouldn't do that, Rockets tend to the same when they can with Harden.

You're not understanding my concern.

To me and ideal team is one where each player is confident in their decision making and proactive in their motor. The danger in letting the star take over too many things is that the other players become hesitant and passive.

This is a much broader concern than basketball. It's something you can see in businesses and other organizations all the time. Show me a CEO who complains that he has to do everything himself and I'll show you a set of employees who have learned that taking initiative isn't rewarded and is oftentimes criticized. There is an art to building the confidence of the people that follow you, and the reality is that it's such an important factor that no alpha can be judged effectively before this is taken into consideration.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that Westbrook is intentionally cruel to his teammates the way I've seen other players be, but I really question whether players adapting to Westbrook's Wilt-like primacy actually makes them better players.

I don't begrudge anyone saying I'm wrong, but until folks see this as a real concern that needs to be considered for any team, they're missing something important.

[bondom34]

I actually think it may have been a bad thing for the Thunder but I don't think it's fair to call it stat padding. It's a reasonable thing to try given Westbrook's unique abilities but I question the effect it has on his teammates sense of agency.


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Its not bad, they do it so he can start a fastbreak n push the ball faster, if Cousins was on his team, they wouldn't do that, Rockets tend to the same when they can with Harden.

You're not understanding my concern.

To me and ideal team is one where each player is confident in their decision making and proactive in their motor. The danger in letting the star take over too many things is that the other players become hesitant and passive.

This is a much broader concern than basketball. It's something you can see in businesses and other organizations all the time. Show me a CEO who complains that he has to do everything himself and I'll show you a set of employees who have learned that taking initiative isn't rewarded and is oftentimes criticized. There is an art to building the confidence of the people that follow you, and the reality is that it's such an important factor that no alpha can be judged effectively before this is taken into consideration.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that Westbrook is intentionally cruel to his teammates the way I've seen other players be, but I really question whether players adapting to Westbrook's Wilt-like primacy actually makes them better players.

I don't begrudge anyone saying I'm wrong, but until folks see this as a real concern that needs to be considered for any team, they're missing something important.

Just noted this above, but it's been an active coaching decision for years. Since he was early on in the league, the staff realized he can get the ball on the break faster this way and this season especially when they have no real half court offensive threats, it's their best bet to get points.

It's not really something that is or should be a concern, he's got the ball in his hands the same amount as other top PGs (Wall, Harden), and to this point it's a better threat than the alternative.

[Bergmaniac]

Westbrook is also the best outlet passer on the Thunder (except Collison, but he never plays these days), they have gotten a lot of points this season of him getting the rebound and throwing a pass to the streaking Oladipo or Roberson. Typically the bigs box out, Westbrook gets the rebound, Oladipo leaks out and gets a pass for a fast break dunk. Everyone seems happy with the arrangement.