Luka Doncic

[Mirotic12]

Of course 90% of the teams in the NCAA aren't as athletic as Panathinaikos... 90% of the teams in Euroleague aren't as athletic as them!

There are 300+ teams in the NCAA, of course the talent differential is just as huge as it in the EL. You can't compare entire leagues, the best way to break it down would be to take the top 10 or so most athletic teams and compare them. Is Panathinaikos more athletic than Kentucky this year? No. No they are not.

Panathinaikos is more athletic than Kentucky. Players like Mike James and James Feldeine are not even considered all that athletic on their team (several other guys on the team are more athletic), and yet they are more athletic than any perimeter player Kentucky has.

Mike James
James Feldeine
Nikos Pappas
Chris Singleton
James Gist
Kenny Gabriel
Lefteris Bochoridis (a point guard that can dunk in games against a set half court defense with ease)


Hell, a guy like Vassilis Charalampopoulos is considered "non athletic" for their team, and he can easily dunk over 7 footers in traffic.

[Bob8]

Panathinaikos plays like that only in OAKA. They have 15 wins but only 3 away, against the worst teams in Euroleague, Galatasaray, Armani and Brose.

And stop this nonsense about Spanoulis. He had grade 2 muscle strain. normally 2-3 weeks out, but he made a mistake and didn't stop immediately. One year? If you tear your muscle completely, you're not out for 1 year and believe me you can't play with torn muscle(rupture).

I watched the game against Darussafaka. Wanamaker was amazing, Spanoulis was good only in last 5 minutes. Here are the stats,

http://www.euroleague.net/main/results/showgame?gamecode=200&seasoncode=E2016#!boxscore

Why are you talking about Panathinaikos playing in OAKA? The point has nothing to do with them winning the game or being better than Real or anything. It's that they are a bad match up for any lead guard driven team. You are arguing about something that is not even being discussed.

The discussion isn't about who is a better team, it's about how Doncic can match up against what is probably the most athletic team in Europe, or certainly one of the most athletic. And no, the athletic level of the team does not change because they are on the road. Their quality of play drops, mainly because the refs always help them at home (the hooligans and their owner always intimidate the refs to a ridiculous degree that would never be allowed in NBA for example). But you don't get less athletic on the road, and more athletic at home, so I'm not sure why it matters that the game was at Athens. Yes, they are a bad road team, which isn't at all pertinent to what was being discussed here.

The injury you note for Spanoulis is a totally different injury. I'm talking about an injury he got about 3 months ago, where he tore the abductor muscles in his right upper thigh. Without surgery it takes about a year to fully heal. Just because you didn't know he has been playing with that injury, does not mean it does not exist. It's a totally different injury.

My point is that in places like Oaka, Pionir, Peace&friendship, Fener hall... is always difficult to play because of the ambient, presure on referees...that with combination of Fiba rules enables defense to play very dirty defense. In past Olympiacos mastered that in perfection. Playing away all that is impossible and their "athleticism" doesn't help them much. Doncic having not the best game is totally normal in this circumstances. Yesterday Spanoulis and Wanamaker had incredible bad game, not away but at home. It's impossible for anybody in Euroleague to have good game every week.

Why is Pao more athletic than Efes?

If I understand you right, Spanoulis has torn(rapture) one of adductor muscles and didn't miss a single game? We're not kids here to listen to fairy tales before sleeping.

Spanoulis yesterday, at home against one of less athletic teams, http://www.euroleague.net/main/results/showgame?gamecode=207&seasoncode=E2016

his assist-turnover ratio is incredible all season long. or should I say turnover-assist ratio?

[reanimator]

Panathinaikos is more athletic than Kentucky. Players like Mike James and James Feldeine are not even considered all that athletic on their team (several other guys on the team are more athletic), and yet they are more athletic than any perimeter player Kentucky has.

Obviously someone who has never watched DeAaron Fox or Malik Monk

[Mirotic12]

My point is that in places like Oaka, Pionir, Peace&friendship, Fener hall... is always difficult to play because of the ambient, presure on referees...that with combination of Fiba rules enables defense to play very dirty defense. In past Olympiacos mastered that in perfection. Playing away all that is impossible and their "athleticism" doesn't help them much. Doncic having not the best game is totally normal in this circumstances. Yesterday Spanoulis and Wanamaker had incredible bad game, not away but at home. It's impossible for anybody in Euroleague to have good game every week.

Why is Pao more athletic than Efes?

If I understand you right, Spanoulis has torn(rapture) one of adductor muscles and didn't miss a single game? We're not kids here to listen to fairy tales before sleeping.

Spanoulis yesterday, at home against one of less athletic teams, http://www.euroleague.net/main/results/showgame?gamecode=207&seasoncode=E2016

his assist-turnover ratio is incredible all season long. or should I say turnover-assist ratio?

First of all, Spanoulis missed many games with this injury, and barely has been playing in Greek League. There is no fairy tale. If you don't want to deal in facts, I will put you on ignore.

Second, as to the last game, it was widely reported Spanoulis and Matt Lojeski tried to play the game with high fevers and the flu. It was even said during the game broadcast, and they said Spanoulis was too sick to practice or even do shoot around. After the game Olympiacos' coach said they probably should not have tried to play them. The reason Olympiacos blew that game was because two of their key players were very sick with the flu. If you watched the game you could have known that, as the commentators even said it.

Panathinaikos is more athletic than Efes. Most athletic teams in EuroLeague are something like this:

1. Panathinaikos

then below that you have probably,

2. CSKA, Efes, Olympiacos, Baskonia, Maccabi, Milano

then probably teams like Real and Red Star...something like that.

Now back to Doncic, all you just said there was exactly what I said, yet you are arguing about what I said...even though it's exactly what I said.

Panathinaikos is more athletic than Kentucky. Players like Mike James and James Feldeine are not even considered all that athletic on their team (several other guys on the team are more athletic), and yet they are more athletic than any perimeter player Kentucky has.

Obviously someone who has never watched DeAaron Fox or Malik Monk

I've seen all four of the players, unlike people that say NCAA has clearly better athletes than EuroLeague.

Feldeine has tremendous conditioning as he runs defenders ragged coming off screens. He's quick, he's fast, he has a good first step, and he can throw down some vicious in game dunks. He also has a pretty darn good lateral movement defensively. He's also quite agile. He's at least at the level of a very good NBA athlete.

James is very fast, very quick, very explosive off the dribble, and he's got great leaping ability. No Kentucky player is as athletic as he is.

Some people here are just clinging to these stereotypes created in USA about European basketball. Stereotypes that came from 30-35 years ago, and that some people just can't let go of, despite reality.

[Bob8]

My point is that in places like Oaka, Pionir, Peace&friendship, Fener hall... is always difficult to play because of the ambient, presure on referees...that with combination of Fiba rules enables defense to play very dirty defense. In past Olympiacos mastered that in perfection. Playing away all that is impossible and their "athleticism" doesn't help them much. Doncic having not the best game is totally normal in this circumstances. Yesterday Spanoulis and Wanamaker had incredible bad game, not away but at home. It's impossible for anybody in Euroleague to have good game every week.

Why is Pao more athletic than Efes?

If I understand you right, Spanoulis has torn(rapture) one of adductor muscles and didn't miss a single game? We're not kids here to listen to fairy tales before sleeping.

Spanoulis yesterday, at home against one of less athletic teams, http://www.euroleague.net/main/results/showgame?gamecode=207&seasoncode=E2016

his assist-turnover ratio is incredible all season long. or should I say turnover-assist ratio?

First of all, Spanoulis missed many games with this injury, and barely has been playing in Greek League. There is no fairy tale. If you don't want to deal in facts, I will put you on ignore.

Second, as to the last game, it was widely reported Spanoulis and Matt Lojeski tried to play the game with high fevers and the flu. It was even said during the game broadcast, and they said Spanoulis was too sick to practice or even do shoot around. After the game Olympiacos' coach said they probably should not have tried to play them. The reason Olympiacos blew that game was because two of their key players were very sick with the flu. If you watched the game you could have known that, as the commentators even said it.

Panathinaikos is more athletic than Efes. Most athletic teams in EuroLeague are something like this:

1. Panathinaikos

then below that you have probably,

2. CSKA, Efes, Olympiacos, Baskonia, Maccabi, Milano

then probably teams like Real and Red Star...something like that.

Now back to Doncic, all you just said there was exactly what I said, yet you are arguing about what I said...even though it's exactly what I said.

Let's talk about the facts. You said he has torn one of the adductor muscle 3 months ago. That should be sometime in December. Fact number one is, he missed only 1 game of first 20 games in Euroleague. In December, when he supposed torn his muscle, he played 6 Euroleague games, because there was double Euroleague week. That means till February he played more or less nonstop. And then he missed 3 games with like you said different injury.

http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?pcode=JUO&seasoncode=E2016

There is no professional or even amateur sportsman who can compete in any sport with torn-rapture muscle. Grade 1 muscle strain( pulled muscle), you're one week out. Grade 2 muscle strain, you're at least 3 weeks out, and grade 3 muscle strain - torn muscle, what you're saying Spanoulis had, several months out and no way you can play with thah kind of injury. Spanoulis missed only 1 game till February and not in December when he supposed to get injured.
Imho Spanoulis was really injured, but he had grade 1-2 muscle strain, he should have rest for some weeks, he didn't and because of that injury got worse and he had to rest in February. The same injury and no way torn muscle, because he would be out for several months.

[twosevenstreet]

not your call to make.

I hope i can still voice my opinion on this.

In the Doncic thread in general? feel free. just adhere to the guidelines. anything outside of that send me a PM.

I'm new to this forum, are things really that contentious between posters?

[Marcus]

I hope i can still voice my opinion on this.

In the Doncic thread in general? feel free. just adhere to the guidelines. anything outside of that send me a PM.

I'm new to this forum, are things really that contentious between posters?

Usually? no. Don't mean to call anybody out or anything but these kinds of dust ups mostly occur when discussing European prospects and or European players in general who haven't made the transition to the NBA. Other than that its typically peaceful around here. People disagree about strengths and weaknesses in prospects and the usual numbers v eye test debates occur. But nothing near as volatile as when a European prospect is introduced into the conversation especially in comparison to an American prospect.

[twosevenstreet]

In the Doncic thread in general? feel free. just adhere to the guidelines. anything outside of that send me a PM.

I'm new to this forum, are things really that contentious between posters?

Usually? no. Don't mean to call anybody out or anything but these kinds of dust ups mostly occur when discussing European prospects and or European players in general who haven't made the transition to the NBA. Other than that its typically peaceful around here. People disagree about strengths and weaknesses in prospects and the usual numbers v eye test debates occur. But nothing near as volatile as when a European prospect is introduced into the conversation especially in comparison to an American prospect.

So I can expect a big argument when Milos Teodosic comes over.

[Marcus]

I'm new to this forum, are things really that contentious between posters?

Usually? no. Don't mean to call anybody out or anything but these kinds of dust ups mostly occur when discussing European prospects and or European players in general who haven't made the transition to the NBA. Other than that its typically peaceful around here. People disagree about strengths and weaknesses in prospects and the usual numbers v eye test debates occur. But nothing near as volatile as when a European prospect is introduced into the conversation especially in comparison to an American prospect.

So I can expect a big argument when Milos Teodosic comes over.

Maybe. I'm sure somebody knows about him and will have something to say and somebody else will disagree which is all fine and dandy and pretty basic at the root. But the passion used to discredit another poster over a simple disagreement in opinion is where it goes next level.

[kayath]

Luka Doncic is now 1st pick on DraftExpress for 2018. Adrian Wojnarowski also said in his podcast that he has Doncic as 1st in his mock Draft. And his opinion should have some weight i would say.

[reanimator]

Luka Doncic is now 1st pick on DraftExpress for 2018. Adrian Wojnarowski also said in his podcast that he has Doncic as 1st in his mock Draft. And his opinion should have some weight i would say.

Not really
DX overhypes and gets Euros wrong more often than not

[Bob8]

Luka Doncic is now 1st pick on DraftExpress for 2018. Adrian Wojnarowski also said in his podcast that he has Doncic as 1st in his mock Draft. And his opinion should have some weight i would say.

Not really
DX overhypes and gets Euros wrong more often than not

DX is wrong, Wojnarowski is wrong, many scouts and managers who went in Europe to see him are wrong, former players who played in Europe and Nba are wrong, stats are wrong, we rather trust some forum members, who don't have a clue how difficult is for 17-18 years player to even get some minutes in Euroleague? Yeah, right.

[reanimator]

Luka Doncic is now 1st pick on DraftExpress for 2018. Adrian Wojnarowski also said in his podcast that he has Doncic as 1st in his mock Draft. And his opinion should have some weight i would say.

Not really
DX overhypes and gets Euros wrong more often than not

DX is wrong, Wojnarowski is wrong, many scouts and managers who went in Europe to see him are wrong, former players who played in Europe and Nba are wrong, stats are wrong, we rather trust some forum members, who don't have a clue how difficult is for 17-18 years player to even get some minutes in Euroleague? Yeah, right.

Yup
They have Dzanan Musa above multiple perimeter players far better than him, for example.
I still remember Svi the lottery pick for like 3 years straight on their site

[Derento]

I think Doncic is a placeholder number 1 until scouts and draft analysts can see the the other top prospects against better competition.
They can't see the baseline of the how good the other guys are until stuff like the practices of the big events and college competition.

[Bob8]

Not really
DX overhypes and gets Euros wrong more often than not

DX is wrong, Wojnarowski is wrong, many scouts and managers who went in Europe to see him are wrong, former players who played in Europe and Nba are wrong, stats are wrong, we rather trust some forum members, who don't have a clue how difficult is for 17-18 years player to even get some minutes in Euroleague? Yeah, right.

Yup
They have Dzanan Musa above multiple perimeter players far better than him, for example.
I still remember Svi the lottery pick for like 3 years straight on their site

Wojnarowski has every year player from Europe as his first pick?

[QRich3]

Not really
DX overhypes and gets Euros wrong more often than not

DX is wrong, Wojnarowski is wrong, many scouts and managers who went in Europe to see him are wrong, former players who played in Europe and Nba are wrong, stats are wrong, we rather trust some forum members, who don't have a clue how difficult is for 17-18 years player to even get some minutes in Euroleague? Yeah, right.

Yup
They have Dzanan Musa above multiple perimeter players far better than him, for example.
I still remember Svi the lottery pick for like 3 years straight on their site

To be fair they also nail uncertain picks like Porzingis or late risers like Biyombo way before most other sites even know who they are.

So the thing is not that they overrate players in Europe, it's that they scout them sooner and better than most other sites. Sometimes that leads to overplaying their draft position relative to other sites, sometimes it leads to them being right before the others. I would certainly not say they get them wrong more often than not.

[WalterBenjamin]

Luka Doncic is now 1st pick on DraftExpress for 2018. Adrian Wojnarowski also said in his podcast that he has Doncic as 1st in his mock Draft. And his opinion should have some weight i would say.

Not really
DX overhypes and gets Euros wrong more often than not

As does anybody with College players. Based on hype ther are more filures in drafts than succeses.
Don't believe? Go look past drafts. Any College player has all star potential

Do you know who is the bigest bust from Europe in the last 6-7 years? Kanter. Because Leonard,Butler,Klay, Walker went behind him. Hardly can say that Hezonja is a sure bust. Even if u group him in that category Euro players have overpreformed their draft position.
Is Milicic your only argument? So u have a Milicic xy years ago and an 22 year old 5 pick.

[reanimator]

DX is wrong, Wojnarowski is wrong, many scouts and managers who went in Europe to see him are wrong, former players who played in Europe and Nba are wrong, stats are wrong, we rather trust some forum members, who don't have a clue how difficult is for 17-18 years player to even get some minutes in Euroleague? Yeah, right.

Yup
They have Dzanan Musa above multiple perimeter players far better than him, for example.
I still remember Svi the lottery pick for like 3 years straight on their site

To be fair they also nail uncertain picks like Porzingis or late risers like Biyombo way before most other sites even know who they are.

So the thing is not that they overrate players in Europe, it's that they scout them sooner and better than most other sites. Sometimes that leads to overplaying their draft position relative to other sites, sometimes it leads to them being right before the others. I would certainly not say they get them wrong more often than not.

Notice, you cite big men and not perimeter players. As I've stated before, European big men have a far likelier chance of translating their game to the league. With perimeter players, DX has a terrible track record.

[Disposable Hero]

Luka Doncic is now 1st pick on DraftExpress for 2018. Adrian Wojnarowski also said in his podcast that he has Doncic as 1st in his mock Draft. And his opinion should have some weight i would say.

I listened to that. He also cautioned that Doncic is not a lock to leave for the NBA until 2019. What DX or Woj say carries very little weight to me though. As soon as all these kids (Donic and the current H.S. seniors) start playing with and against NBA level talent the wheat will separate from the chaff. I seriously doubt Donic will be even a top 5 pick let alone #1. From what I've seen, he's not a very special athlete. He reminds me of Bird in that he's highly skilled with high IQ. But Bird was pushing 6'10" so he could get away with having less athleticism. Doncic is maybe 6'7" so he won't have that luxury. I can't imagine him being able to get his shot off against NBA SFs.

[Derento]

Luka Doncic is now 1st pick on DraftExpress for 2018. Adrian Wojnarowski also said in his podcast that he has Doncic as 1st in his mock Draft. And his opinion should have some weight i would say.

I listened to that. He also cautioned that Doncic is not a lock to leave for the NBA until 2019. What DX or Woj say carries very little weight to me though. As soon as all these kids (Donic and the current H.S. seniors) start playing with and against NBA level talent the wheat will separate from the chaff. I seriously doubt Donic will be even a top 5 pick let alone #1. From what I've seen, he's not a very special athlete. He reminds me of Bird in that he's highly skilled with high IQ. But Bird was pushing 6'10" so he could get away with having less athleticism. Doncic is maybe 6'7" so he won't have that luxury. I can't imagine him being able to get his shot off against NBA SFs.

At this point mock drafts are vastly speculation.
Majority of the top prospects haven't played in college in yet and have very little scouting against better competition other than top aau events and camps.