Political Roundtable Part XIII

Induveca · Post #1401 » by **Induveca** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:41 am

Day before Comey, NSA whistleblower leaks Trump addresses which were surveilled/wire tapped. This was leaked from Arpaio's offices which obviously are aligned with Trump. But they swear it's an NSA program, and stepping forward as whistleblowers.

Let's see how he spins this:

-----

Chief Investigator Zullo have identified dozens of entries at various addresses, including both Trump Tower in New York City and Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, under which Donald Trump was apparently under NSA electronic surveillance from 2004, during President George W. Bush’s term of office, through 2009, the first year of President Obama’s presidency.
Electronic surveillance of Donald Trump was listed in the database for the following companies, locations, and dates:

Trump International
1 Central Park, NYC, NY
2008
Trump World Tower
845 United Nations Plaza, NYC, NY
No Date
Trump Tower SAL
108 Central Park, NYC, NY
2007
Trump Palace Co
200 E. 69th Street A, NYC, NY
2008
Trump Entertainment
725 Fifth Ave. FL, NYC, NY
2007
Trump Organization
725 Fifth Ave. BSM, NYC, NY
2009
Trump Palace
725 Fifth Ave., NYC, NY
2004
Mar-a-Lago Club
1100 S. Ocean BL, Palm Beach, FL
2006
Trump International
401 N. Wabash Ave., Chicago, IL
2008
Douglass Limousine
239 Nassau St., Princeton, NJ
2008
Trump International
3505 Summit BLV, West Palm Beach, FL
2004
Flights INC
P.O. Box 196, Hamilton MA
2004
Trump International
1 Central Park, NYC, NY
2008
Trump Hotels
Huron Ave., Atlantic City, NJ
No Date
Trump National
339 Pine Rd, Briarcliff, NY
No Date
Trump Plaza & C
2500 Pacific Ave, Atlantic City, NJ
2008
Trump Palace Co.
200 E. 69th St., NYC, NY
2008
Seven Springs
66 Oregon Rd, Mount Kisco, NY
2006-2008

DCZards · Post #1402 » by **DCZards** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:13 am

Induveca wrote:Day before Comey, NSA whistleblower leaks Trump addresses which were surveilled/wire tapped. This was leaked from Arpaio's offices which obviously are aligned with Trump. But they swear it's an NSA program, and stepping forward as whistleblowers.

Let's see how he spins this:

-----

Chief Investigator Zullo have identified dozens of entries at various addresses, including both Trump Tower in New York City and Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, under which Donald Trump was apparently under NSA electronic surveillance from 2004, during President George W. Bush’s term of office, through 2009, the first year of President Obama’s presidency.
Electronic surveillance of Donald Trump was listed in the database for the following companies, locations, and dates:

Trump International
1 Central Park, NYC, NY
2008
Trump World Tower
845 United Nations Plaza, NYC, NY
No Date
Trump Tower SAL
108 Central Park, NYC, NY
2007
Trump Palace Co
200 E. 69th Street A, NYC, NY
2008
Trump Entertainment
725 Fifth Ave. FL, NYC, NY
2007
Trump Organization
725 Fifth Ave. BSM, NYC, NY
2009
Trump Palace
725 Fifth Ave., NYC, NY
2004
Mar-a-Lago Club
1100 S. Ocean BL, Palm Beach, FL
2006
Trump International
401 N. Wabash Ave., Chicago, IL
2008
Douglass Limousine
239 Nassau St., Princeton, NJ
2008
Trump International
3505 Summit BLV, West Palm Beach, FL
2004
Flights INC
P.O. Box 196, Hamilton MA
2004
Trump International
1 Central Park, NYC, NY
2008
Trump Hotels
Huron Ave., Atlantic City, NJ
No Date
Trump National
339 Pine Rd, Briarcliff, NY
No Date
Trump Plaza & C
2500 Pacific Ave, Atlantic City, NJ
2008
Trump Palace Co.
200 E. 69th St., NYC, NY
2008
Seven Springs
66 Oregon Rd, Mount Kisco, NY
2006-2008

What's the source of the above information? An article? Newscast? Can you provide a link?

Induveca · Post #1403 » by **Induveca** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:24 am

Past 5 hours it's on every site not CNN or MSNBC.

Obviously timed for Comey tomorrow. If true, not sure how to react.

DCZards · Post #1404 » by **DCZards** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:53 am

Indu, is this what you're referring to? These claims by Bill Binney made almost two weeks ago. I'm sure if there was any thing to what Binney alleges the Repubs, Spicer and Trump would have been making a big deal about them over the past several days...and not dragging the UK and Merkel into the mess made by the Liar-in-Chief.

Prominent Repubs are telling #45 to do the right thing and apologize to Obama for his baseless claims, which is really what should be happening at this point.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-03-07/nsa-whistleblower-bill-binney-says-trump-is-absolutely-right-about-wiretap-claims

Induveca · Post #1405 » by **Induveca** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:12 am

DCZards wrote:Indu, is this what you're referring to? These claims by Bill Binney made almost two weeks ago. I'm sure if there was any thing to what Binney alleges the Repubs, Spicer and Trump would have been making a big deal about them over the past several days...and not dragging the UK and Merkel into the mess made by the Liar-in-Chief.

Prominent Repubs are telling #45 to do the right thing and apologize to Obama for his baseless claims, which is really what should be happening at this point.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-03-07/nsa-whistleblower-bill-binney-says-trump-is-absolutely-right-about-wiretap-claims

Not sure it's all over Reddit, info Wars, breitbart etc only past week, had been out of US for a month prior. (Yeah I get it "sources", but all US sources are **** at this point no?)

Admittedly I'm in process of moving to Japan so I've been up to my knees in American media this past week while packing. Let's just say I didn't miss it, if Arpaio and his cronies are opening up their NSA database, I suspect this would be Trump's source?

Extremely hard to disprove. Spreading like wildfire today only, as far as I've seen. Also dig a bit more that's not the source, sadly these days mainstream media have zero desire to lend any support to the President. They're damned if they do etc etc.

AFM · Post #1406 » by **AFM** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:20 am

Induveca wrote:
DCZards wrote:Indu, is this what you're referring to? These claims by Bill Binney made almost two weeks ago. I'm sure if there was any thing to what Binney alleges the Repubs, Spicer and Trump would have been making a big deal about them over the past several days...and not dragging the UK and Merkel into the mess made by the Liar-in-Chief.

Prominent Repubs are telling #45 to do the right thing and apologize to Obama for his baseless claims, which is really what should be happening at this point.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-03-07/nsa-whistleblower-bill-binney-says-trump-is-absolutely-right-about-wiretap-claims

Not sure it's all over Reddit, info Wars, breitbart etc only past week, had been out of US for a month prior. (Yeah I get it "sources", but all US sources are **** at this point no?)

Admittedly I'm in process of moving to Japan so I've been up to my knees in American media this past week while packing. Let's just say I didn't miss it, if Arpaio and his cronies are opening up their NSA database, I suspect this would be Trump's source?

Extremely hard to disprove. Spreading like wildfire today only, as far as I've seen. Also dig a bit more that's not the source, sadly these days mainstream media have zero desire to lend any support to the President. They're damned if they do etc etc.

Bro you can't move to Japan.

Induveca · Post #1407 » by **Induveca** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:23 am

I'll take my chances with Jong Un's BS. It's a great place for a year or two! Then back to NYC.

For those who think Tokyo is expensive, NO. It's cheaper than Miami. Cost of living there has plummeted.

Post #1408 » by **Zonkerbl** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:49 pm

Induveca wrote:Day before Comey, NSA whistleblower leaks Trump addresses which were surveilled/wire tapped. This was leaked from Arpaio's offices which obviously are aligned with Trump. But they swear it's an NSA program, and stepping forward as whistleblowers.

Let's see how he spins this:

-----

Chief Investigator Zullo have identified dozens of entries at various addresses, including both Trump Tower in New York City and Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, under which Donald Trump was apparently under NSA electronic surveillance from 2004, during President George W. Bush’s term of office, through 2009, the first year of President Obama’s presidency.
Electronic surveillance of Donald Trump was listed in the database for the following companies, locations, and dates:

Trump International
1 Central Park, NYC, NY
2008
Trump World Tower
845 United Nations Plaza, NYC, NY
No Date
Trump Tower SAL
108 Central Park, NYC, NY
2007
Trump Palace Co
200 E. 69th Street A, NYC, NY
2008
Trump Entertainment
725 Fifth Ave. FL, NYC, NY
2007
Trump Organization
725 Fifth Ave. BSM, NYC, NY
2009
Trump Palace
725 Fifth Ave., NYC, NY
2004
Mar-a-Lago Club
1100 S. Ocean BL, Palm Beach, FL
2006
Trump International
401 N. Wabash Ave., Chicago, IL
2008
Douglass Limousine
239 Nassau St., Princeton, NJ
2008
Trump International
3505 Summit BLV, West Palm Beach, FL
2004
Flights INC
P.O. Box 196, Hamilton MA
2004
Trump International
1 Central Park, NYC, NY
2008
Trump Hotels
Huron Ave., Atlantic City, NJ
No Date
Trump National
339 Pine Rd, Briarcliff, NY
No Date
Trump Plaza & C
2500 Pacific Ave, Atlantic City, NJ
2008
Trump Palace Co.
200 E. 69th St., NYC, NY
2008
Seven Springs
66 Oregon Rd, Mount Kisco, NY
2006-2008

I'm confused, if this is all 2009 and earlier, how does it relate to Trump's claim that Obama ordered a wiretap during the campaign? Or are we talking about something else?

Post #1409 » by **Zonkerbl** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:52 pm

I wish Trump hadn't dumbed down the whole "UN member states are not contributing their fair share" thing to "YOU OWE US VAST SUMS FOR DEFENSE!" I mean yeah it's similar in spirit but just not at all convincing to anyone but a Trump supporter. And it's one of the few legit things Trump has to say.

sfam · Post #1410 » by **sfam** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:10 pm

Induveca wrote:Day before Comey, NSA whistleblower leaks Trump addresses which were surveilled/wire tapped. This was leaked from Arpaio's offices which obviously are aligned with Trump. But they swear it's an NSA program, and stepping forward as whistleblowers.

Let's see how he spins this:

-----

Chief Investigator Zullo have identified dozens of entries at various addresses, including both Trump Tower in New York City and Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, under which Donald Trump was apparently under NSA electronic surveillance from 2004, during President George W. Bush’s term of office, through 2009, the first year of President Obama’s presidency.
Electronic surveillance of Donald Trump was listed in the database for the following companies, locations, and dates:

Trump International
1 Central Park, NYC, NY
2008
Trump World Tower
845 United Nations Plaza, NYC, NY
No Date
Trump Tower SAL
108 Central Park, NYC, NY
2007
Trump Palace Co
200 E. 69th Street A, NYC, NY
2008
Trump Entertainment
725 Fifth Ave. FL, NYC, NY
2007
Trump Organization
725 Fifth Ave. BSM, NYC, NY
2009
Trump Palace
725 Fifth Ave., NYC, NY
2004
Mar-a-Lago Club
1100 S. Ocean BL, Palm Beach, FL
2006
Trump International
401 N. Wabash Ave., Chicago, IL
2008
Douglass Limousine
239 Nassau St., Princeton, NJ
2008
Trump International
3505 Summit BLV, West Palm Beach, FL
2004
Flights INC
P.O. Box 196, Hamilton MA
2004
Trump International
1 Central Park, NYC, NY
2008
Trump Hotels
Huron Ave., Atlantic City, NJ
No Date
Trump National
339 Pine Rd, Briarcliff, NY
No Date
Trump Plaza & C
2500 Pacific Ave, Atlantic City, NJ
2008
Trump Palace Co.
200 E. 69th St., NYC, NY
2008
Seven Springs
66 Oregon Rd, Mount Kisco, NY
2006-2008

Wait, so now Obama ordered wiretaps on Trump tower back in 2004? This is similar to him being born in Kenya but calling Hawaii papers to list his birth so he could become President 45 years later, right? This looks like pure noise.

sfam · Post #1411 » by **sfam** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:11 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:I wish Trump hadn't dumbed down the whole "UN member states are not contributing their fair share" thing to "YOU OWE US VAST SUMS FOR DEFENSE!" I mean yeah it's similar in spirit but just not at all convincing to anyone but a Trump supporter. And it's one of the few legit things Trump has to say.

Worse, Merkel in their conference indicated they should pay more, so Trump in effect had already won. And then after the meeting, berated Germany. Who does that? She just agreed she needed to pay more and he does that. Wow.

gtn130 · Post #1412 » by **gtn130** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:34 pm

Induveca wrote:Day before Comey, NSA whistleblower leaks Trump addresses which were surveilled/wire tapped. This was leaked from Arpaio's offices which obviously are aligned with Trump. But they swear it's an NSA program, and stepping forward as whistleblowers.

Let's see how he spins this:

-----

Chief Investigator Zullo have identified dozens of entries at various addresses, including both Trump Tower in New York City and Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, under which Donald Trump was apparently under NSA electronic surveillance from 2004, during President George W. Bush’s term of office, through 2009, the first year of President Obama’s presidency.
Electronic surveillance of Donald Trump was listed in the database for the following companies, locations, and dates:

Trump International
1 Central Park, NYC, NY
2008
Trump World Tower
845 United Nations Plaza, NYC, NY
No Date
Trump Tower SAL
108 Central Park, NYC, NY
2007
Trump Palace Co
200 E. 69th Street A, NYC, NY
2008
Trump Entertainment
725 Fifth Ave. FL, NYC, NY
2007
Trump Organization
725 Fifth Ave. BSM, NYC, NY
2009
Trump Palace
725 Fifth Ave., NYC, NY
2004
Mar-a-Lago Club
1100 S. Ocean BL, Palm Beach, FL
2006
Trump International
401 N. Wabash Ave., Chicago, IL
2008
Douglass Limousine
239 Nassau St., Princeton, NJ
2008
Trump International
3505 Summit BLV, West Palm Beach, FL
2004
Flights INC
P.O. Box 196, Hamilton MA
2004
Trump International
1 Central Park, NYC, NY
2008
Trump Hotels
Huron Ave., Atlantic City, NJ
No Date
Trump National
339 Pine Rd, Briarcliff, NY
No Date
Trump Plaza & C
2500 Pacific Ave, Atlantic City, NJ
2008
Trump Palace Co.
200 E. 69th St., NYC, NY
2008
Seven Springs
66 Oregon Rd, Mount Kisco, NY
2006-2008

lol

Doug_Blew · Post #1413 » by **Doug_Blew** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:56 pm

Induveca wrote:
Not sure it's all over Reddit, info Wars, breitbart etc only past week, had been out of US for a month prior. (Yeah I get it "sources", but all US sources are **** at this point no?)

Yes! Most of the sources you listed are ****.

TGW · Post #1414 » by **TGW** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:29 pm

sfam wrote:
Induveca wrote:Day before Comey, NSA whistleblower leaks Trump addresses which were surveilled/wire tapped. This was leaked from Arpaio's offices which obviously are aligned with Trump. But they swear it's an NSA program, and stepping forward as whistleblowers.

Let's see how he spins this:

-----

Chief Investigator Zullo have identified dozens of entries at various addresses, including both Trump Tower in New York City and Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, under which Donald Trump was apparently under NSA electronic surveillance from 2004, during President George W. Bush’s term of office, through 2009, the first year of President Obama’s presidency.
Electronic surveillance of Donald Trump was listed in the database for the following companies, locations, and dates:

Trump International
1 Central Park, NYC, NY
2008
Trump World Tower
845 United Nations Plaza, NYC, NY
No Date
Trump Tower SAL
108 Central Park, NYC, NY
2007
Trump Palace Co
200 E. 69th Street A, NYC, NY
2008
Trump Entertainment
725 Fifth Ave. FL, NYC, NY
2007
Trump Organization
725 Fifth Ave. BSM, NYC, NY
2009
Trump Palace
725 Fifth Ave., NYC, NY
2004
Mar-a-Lago Club
1100 S. Ocean BL, Palm Beach, FL
2006
Trump International
401 N. Wabash Ave., Chicago, IL
2008
Douglass Limousine
239 Nassau St., Princeton, NJ
2008
Trump International
3505 Summit BLV, West Palm Beach, FL
2004
Flights INC
P.O. Box 196, Hamilton MA
2004
Trump International
1 Central Park, NYC, NY
2008
Trump Hotels
Huron Ave., Atlantic City, NJ
No Date
Trump National
339 Pine Rd, Briarcliff, NY
No Date
Trump Plaza & C
2500 Pacific Ave, Atlantic City, NJ
2008
Trump Palace Co.
200 E. 69th St., NYC, NY
2008
Seven Springs
66 Oregon Rd, Mount Kisco, NY
2006-2008

Wait, so now Obama ordered wiretaps on Trump tower back in 2004? This is similar to him being born in Kenya but calling Hawaii papers to list his birth so he could become President 45 years later, right? This looks like pure noise.

Or how Katrina Pierson said it was Obama who invaded Afghanistan.

Alternative FAX ftw

sfam · Post #1415 » by **sfam** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:39 pm

So Trump is doing the communist "surveillance over the state" type thing. Hiring people to check up on all the bad things happening in the agencies and report back to Trump? This will end well, I'm sure...

White House installs political aides at Cabinet agencies to be Trump’s eyes and ears
The political appointee charged with keeping watch over Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Scott Pruitt and his aides has offered unsolicited advice so often that after just four weeks on the job, Pruitt has shut him out of many staff meetings, according to two senior administration officials.

At the Pentagon, they’re privately calling the former Marine officer and fighter pilot who’s supposed to keep his eye on Defense Secretary Jim Mattis “the commissar,” according to a high-ranking defense official with knowledge of the situation. It’s a reference to Soviet-era Communist Party officials who were assigned to military units to ensure their commanders remained loyal...

sfam · Post #1416 » by **sfam** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:42 pm

Induveca wrote:
DCZards wrote:Indu, is this what you're referring to? These claims by Bill Binney made almost two weeks ago. I'm sure if there was any thing to what Binney alleges the Repubs, Spicer and Trump would have been making a big deal about them over the past several days...and not dragging the UK and Merkel into the mess made by the Liar-in-Chief.

Prominent Repubs are telling #45 to do the right thing and apologize to Obama for his baseless claims, which is really what should be happening at this point.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-03-07/nsa-whistleblower-bill-binney-says-trump-is-absolutely-right-about-wiretap-claims

Not sure it's all over Reddit, info Wars, breitbart etc only past week, had been out of US for a month prior. (Yeah I get it "sources", but all US sources are **** at this point no?)

No, they're not.

You, Nate and others can repeat this as much as you like, but Brietbart, Infowars, Huffington Post, Daily Kos should never be viewed as the same as the NYTimes, WSJ and WaPo. One has clear policies and procedures backed up by a refined body of knowledge for producing quality journalism, with editors, paid reporters and all the rest. The other has websites, and virtually no checks and balances.

Not all stories are the same. They may look the same in a FB post, but they really aren't.

The fact that Trump spouts crap he sees on alt-right conspiracy sites doesn't make them more true. It does make them more damaging than they would be otherwise.

sfam · Post #1417 » by **sfam** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:49 pm

Illuminaire wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:1) Cost of employees
2) Cost of drugs
3) Cost of hospitals
4) Cost of implants and hardware
.
.
.
.
somewhere down there) Cost of insurance companies.

We still go bust.

This is where I'm coming from, too. You need to build the infrastructure to supply the healthcare before you open those floodgates. That includes incentives for people to become doctors (plus nurses, pharmacists, people who fill out and process paperwork for medical records, etc...), and enough schools training them to meet those needs.

You also need to establish a competitive market for everything from MRI machines to antibiotics to the little plastic boxes they dispose needles in. Without driving all of those prices down (and giving suppliers a reason to innovate and increase efficiency) you can't pay for everyone to have quality healthcare in a reasonable time frame.

Insurance isn't really the biggest issue. Cost of healthcare is.

I won't repeat this endlessly, but insurance companies are in fact a huge problem. What other purchase do you have a third party in the middle between the buyer and seller who makes the prices versus quality debate meaningless? This kills the ability to do any kind of meaningful cost control.

There is a bigger risk of a private physician getting sued for not providing complete care, so the drive is instead to perform extraneous procedures. This is the opposite of the Canada story above, where you will get the procedure whether its needed or not. Everyone benefits from extraneas procedures - the doctor, the insurance company, the drug manufacturers and the IT health manufacturers all benefit. The consumer gets "extra" care, but doesn't pay more. Instead, rates keep going up.

sfam · Post #1418 » by **sfam** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:59 pm

Wizardspride wrote:
gtn130 wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:Hey Nate,

You said you would change your tune on Trump if it was proven he lied about Obama wiretapping him....

bump

Another "bump"...

hmm....

sfam · Post #1419 » by **sfam** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:16 pm

Read on Twitter

For clarity, the FBI DOES have an active investigation into potential collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.

There is absolutely no evidence supporting Trump's claim that Obama wiretapped him. Or that the British did. No evidence whatsoever from the NSA, Justice Department or FBI.

dckingsfan · Post #1420 » by **dckingsfan** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:19 pm

sfam wrote:
Illuminaire wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:1) Cost of employees
2) Cost of drugs
3) Cost of hospitals
4) Cost of implants and hardware
.
.
.
.
somewhere down there) Cost of insurance companies.

We still go bust.

This is where I'm coming from, too. You need to build the infrastructure to supply the healthcare before you open those floodgates. That includes incentives for people to become doctors (plus nurses, pharmacists, people who fill out and process paperwork for medical records, etc...), and enough schools training them to meet those needs.

You also need to establish a competitive market for everything from MRI machines to antibiotics to the little plastic boxes they dispose needles in. Without driving all of those prices down (and giving suppliers a reason to innovate and increase efficiency) you can't pay for everyone to have quality healthcare in a reasonable time frame.

Insurance isn't really the biggest issue. Cost of healthcare is.

I won't repeat this endlessly, but insurance companies are in fact a huge problem. What other purchase do you have a third party in the middle between the buyer and seller who makes the prices versus quality debate meaningless? This kills the ability to do any kind of meaningful cost control.

There is a bigger risk of a private physician getting sued for not providing complete care, so the drive is instead to perform extraneous procedures. This is the opposite of the Canada story above, where you will get the procedure whether its needed or not. Everyone benefits from extraneas procedures - the doctor, the insurance company, the drug manufacturers and the IT health manufacturers all benefit. The consumer gets "extra" care, but doesn't pay more. Instead, rates keep going up.

You can repeat it endlessly, it doesn't make it true

The reason that physicians are driven to "complete care" is our malpractice environment. Again, one of the cost drivers I listed. U.S. medical liability claims are more than double Canada's (per patient) with at least half of related expenses going to legal costs rather than compensating patients.