Mark Price vs Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf

[Goudelock]

Who was the better player at their peak? I've been watching some of these two, and they seem to be somewhat similar in their playstyle. Both were small and quick and excellent shooters, with Price being the better facilitator and Abdul-Rauf being the more explosive scorer. So I thought that it would be a fun comparison.

[penbeast0]

Easily Price for several reasons. First, Price made himself an excellent distributor (he was an off guard in college); Rauf didn't. Second, Price was consistent over a longer period of prime years than Rauf. Third, Price was liked and respected as a leader by his teammates from what I've heard and read; Rauf was always a person who went his own way, culminating in his refusal to stand for the National Anthem. That's his right but it hurts his intangibles in terms of getting his team to play together. I was always more impressed with Price's defensive intensity too though neither were very impressive on that end.

[SactoKingsFan]

Mark Price was clearly better than Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf. The playmaking gap is pretty big. I'd say Price was more comparable to Steve Nash than Abdul-Rauf.

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[sp6r=underrated]

I have to admit I was genuinely stunned at how mediocre Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf stats were when I looked them up. My memory of him was as a very talented player on an up coming Nuggets team who left the league under circumstances that may have amounted to blacklisting.

[JulesWinnfield]

Yea this is easily Price

Rauf's peak statistically was pretty clearly 96. Career high in PER, BPM, WS/48, PPG, APG... only played in 57 games though. Even if you gave him more durability I'd venture to say Mark Price has about 5 years better than Rauf's 96. Of course Rauf had the national anthem controversy late in that season and his career kind of nosedived amidst the backlash

Rauf was a fun guy to watch, a PG who looked for his shot in an era of pass first guys, and an interesting guy to follow just because of how unique and shrouded in mystery he kind of was. This was just a different cat. Rauf had Tourette's syndrome and was constantly doing his ticks, he had this little neck twitch he couldn't stop doing constantly. He was very reserved and kept to himself, didn't do a ton of interviews... he became a Muslim and changed his name, which added another layer to it.... he was Chris Jackson coming on the scene with LSU in college. Played one year with Shaq at LSU and was the clear number 1 offensive option on the team (28 ppg), probably the only time that happened on any team Shaq ever played for before the tail end of the Shaq/Kobe era

Advanced stats don't paint Rauf as much of an impact guy at all. Just someone with an aesthetically pleasing game who was also capable of some volume scoring bursts. Not much of a playmaker, pretty bad defender...

[Quotatious]

Dana Barros vs Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf would be a much better comparison. This one here is like comparing prime Steve Nash to Monta Ellis, not close at all.

[homecourtloss]

Ark price had three seasons when his ORtg was 120+ and his career ORTG is higher than Rauf's career best of 114; Price's CAREER +4.1 OBPM is indicative of the impact he was making on offense. He's a bad defender, but was easily one of the best offensive PGs ever. In his best offensive season, he posted a 6+ OBPM and an assist% near 38%. Players who have posted an OBPM of 6+ and an assist% of 35%+ are:

LeBron (7 times)
CP3 (7 times)
Westbrook (3 times)
Payton (2 times)
Curry (2 times)
Harden (2 times)
Mark Price (2 times)
DWade (2 times)
Stockton, Nash, Billups, Brandon, Marbury once each.

He created offensive really well at his peak.

Raul was physically gifted and had he been taller, he would have definitely made more of an impact. As it was, he was horrific on defense despite his athleticism (every short player is pretty much horrific on defense outside of maybe Brandon Knight) and not that efficient on offense.

[Quotatious]

He's a bad defender

I wouldn't say that. He was about average defensively. Better than Nash, for sure (even pretty easily). Certainly worse than Stockton (another similar player), but if I had to rank Stockton, Price and Nash defensively, I would describe the gap as:

Stockton


Price

Nash

[homecourtloss]

He's a bad defender

I wouldn't say that. He was about average defensively. Better than Nash, for sure (even pretty easily). Certainly worse than Stockton (another similar player), but if I had to rank Stockton, Price and Nash defensively, I would describe the gap as:

Stockton


Price

Nash

Q, I agree with just about everything you write, but Price was a terrible defender. He couldn't keep anyone in front of him and would easily be picked off by a pick. Easily. He also didn't close out on shooters effectively due to lack of size and athleticism.

Stockton was a terrific defender. Price is in the Nash category of defenders. Nash in Dallas wasn't even all that terrible. For instance, on 2001 and in 2002, the Mavs' defense was about the same with him in court or off. I doubt Price ever had that effect.

[Texas Chuck]

I have to admit I was genuinely stunned at how mediocre Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf stats were when I looked them up. My memory of him was as a very talented player on an up coming Nuggets team who left the league under circumstances that may have amounted to blacklisting.

Yeah I feel the same way. I guess my mind remembers him as Chris Jackson being the "star" at LSU when Shaq and Stanley Roberts were there.

[E-Balla]

I have to admit I was genuinely stunned at how mediocre Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf stats were when I looked them up. My memory of him was as a very talented player on an up coming Nuggets team who left the league under circumstances that may have amounted to blacklisting.

Its funny because I always hear about how great he was from older people that watched him but I always see his numbers as mediocre. He was definitely blackballed though (speaking of which Colin Kaepernick is still unemployed and even as someone who never saw the hype in him I have to say he's a top 32 QB).

[sp6r=underrated]

Its funny because I always hear about how great he was from older people that watched him but I always see his numbers as mediocre. He was definitely blackballed though (speaking of which Colin Kaepernick is still unemployed and even as someone who never saw the hype in him I have to say he's a top 32 QB).

Well I am not much of a football fan but blackballing in professional sports does happen. There is no way Barry Bonds with his immense production went unsigned absent an agreement from the owners. Bonds was still probably a top 30-40 hitter in baseball and sold tickets too. If a player of his stature can be blackballed anyone can.

[penbeast0]

...every short player is pretty much horrific on defense outside of maybe Brandon Knight....

Seriously? What about Chris Paul, Avery Bradley, heck, Knight lists as 6'3 which is good size for a PG and he's not even all that good defensively.

[Quotatious]

...every short player is pretty much horrific on defense outside of maybe Brandon Knight....

Seriously? What about Chris Paul, Avery Bradley, heck, Knight lists as 6'3 which is good size for a PG and he's not even all that good defensively.

In addition to the players you mentioned, I would say Muggsy Bogues, who was the smallest player in NBA history, was a real pest defensively. He could be posted up easily because he was so small, but his ability to put pressure on the ball and disrupt an offense was amazing. Brevin Knight was about 5'10'' and he was a pretty good defender, too. Mookie Blaylock was 6 feet and one of the best defensive guards of all-time. I almost always agree with homecourtloss, but this time, I think it's just an obvious misconception.

[homecourtloss]

...every short player is pretty much horrific on defense outside of maybe Brandon Knight....

Seriously? What about Chris Paul, Avery Bradley, heck, Knight lists as 6'3 which is good size for a PG and he's not even all that good defensively.

I should have qualified--5'11" and under and I meant Brevin Knight.

[homecourtloss]

...every short player is pretty much horrific on defense outside of maybe Brandon Knight....

Seriously? What about Chris Paul, Avery Bradley, heck, Knight lists as 6'3 which is good size for a PG and he's not even all that good defensively.

In addition to the players you mentioned, I would say Muggsy Bogues, who was the smallest player in NBA history, was a real pest defensively. He could be posted up easily because he was so small, but his ability to put pressure on the ball and disrupt an offense was amazing. Brevin Knight was about 5'10'' and he was a pretty good defender, too. Mookie Blaylock was 6 feet and one of the best defensive guards of all-time. I almost always agree with homecourtloss, but this time, I think it's just an obvious misconception.

Yeah, meant a Brevin and should have qualified as under 5'11". Can't really think of others who were plus defenders at that short height.

[penbeast0]

...every short player is pretty much horrific on defense outside of maybe Brandon Knight....

Seriously? What about Chris Paul, Avery Bradley, heck, Knight lists as 6'3 which is good size for a PG and he's not even all that good defensively.

I should have qualified--5'11" and under and I meant Brevin Knight.

Why 5'11 and not 6'0 or 6'1 since both the players in this thread are listed at 6'0 or taller?

[Bwelc679]

As it was, he was horrific on defense despite his athleticism (every short player is pretty much horrific on defense outside of maybe Brandon Knight) and not that efficient on offense.

Do you mean Brevin Knight? Brandon is also terrible at defense. Brevin was a terrific man to man perimeter defender because of his uncanny ability to stay glued to opponents hips without letting them attack his outside foot. This made for lots of steals and prevented them from being able to change direction without doing the slow back down with your butt Mark Jackson move. While I agree that most short players are at a major disadvantage on defense I think that mainly applies to shot contesting and getting bullied close to the hoop for easy shots in the paint. Players like Mark Price were very tough and competitive that they did not allow for anything easy and would really make you work. Price was great at screen navigation and was very smart so he would be excellent at making rotations and filling up passing lanes even if he played today despite the size issue. I think people underestimate the defense of some of these 90s guys like Price who are so much more locked in on defense than the likes of Ja Morant, Darius Garland, Dame, LaMelo and Trae Young. Just because those guys are bigger in stature they assume they are better defensively than someone like Price who in my opinion is much more locked in and better at getting through screens and blowing plays up early. There are modern day examples like T. J. McConnell and Davion Mitchell who do the same. Then you have guys of the past like Mookie Blaylock and most importantly one of the best defenders EVER for his position (I guess Mookie is in this ball park too but not as good as this guy...) Chris Paul was an excellent defender at 6feet tall.

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[Bwelc679]

"Q, I agree with just about everything you write, but Price was a terrible defender. He couldn't keep anyone in front of him and would easily be picked off by a pick. Easily. He also didn't close out on shooters effectively due to lack of size and athleticism."


^^^
This just isn't true. Price was a bulldog of a defender which Stockton has gone on to say in recent interviews. Price was feisty and fought through screens to stay up in the uncomfortable spot for taller shooters. Where do you get the idea he couldn't keep players in front of him? He was so quick. He fought through screens as hard as anyone I've seen but yeah being blind sided will do that sometimes.

Yes, his size was a disadvantage but he was not a bad defender. Just not a good one either.

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[homecourtloss]

As it was, he was horrific on defense despite his athleticism (every short player is pretty much horrific on defense outside of maybe Brandon Knight) and not that efficient on offense.

Do you mean Brevin Knight? Brandon is also terrible at defense. Brevin was a terrific man to man perimeter defender because of his uncanny ability to stay glued to opponents hips without letting them attack his outside foot. This made for lots of steals and prevented them from being able to change direction without doing the slow back down with your butt Mark Jackson move. While I agree that most short players are at a major disadvantage on defense I think that mainly applies to shot contesting and getting bullied close to the hoop for easy shots in the paint. Players like Mark Price were very tough and competitive that they did not allow for anything easy and would really make you work. Price was great at screen navigation and was very smart so he would be excellent at making rotations and filling up passing lanes even if he played today despite the size issue. I think people underestimate the defense of some of these 90s guys like Price who are so much more locked in on defense than the likes of Ja Morant, Darius Garland, Dame, LaMelo and Trae Young. Just because those guys are bigger in stature they assume they are better defensively than someone like Price who in my opinion is much more locked in and better at getting through screens and blowing plays up early. There are modern day examples like T. J. McConnell and Davion Mitchell who do the same. Then you have guys of the past like Mookie Blaylock and most importantly one of the best defenders EVER for his position (I guess Mookie is in this ball park too but not as good as this guy...) Chris Paul was an excellent defender at 6feet tall.

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Yes—I meant Brevin, along with CP3 probably the only two plus defenders in NBA history.