RealGM Top 100 LIST- 2014

[Texas Chuck]

FYI, he was voted in at #10, not outside the top 10.

Two projects ago he was #6, last project he dropped to #10. Therefore it's not outside the realm of possibility for Bird to drop out of the top ten completely this year, depending on who participates in the project. Perhaps the Kobe fanbase makes a push to get him back in the top ten. Maybe Garnett gets in, pushing Bird out. Maybe someone pulls an ardee again and sways people to vote for whoever it is they're campaigning for.

I don't disagree. I have a feeling there will be an even stronger push for Garnett this time around. The OP phrased it as if Bird was voted outside the top 10 in the 2014 project, though.

I still have Bird over KG.... At least until arguments are fully formed. And I'm a big longevity guy too. It's just I think Bird was so special that KG's longevity doesn't close the gap for me.

But who knows, the KG crowd is made up of some of our brightest, most well-written posters. I mean having drza as your champion can only be an advantage....

[Clyde Frazier]

Two projects ago he was #6, last project he dropped to #10. Therefore it's not outside the realm of possibility for Bird to drop out of the top ten completely this year, depending on who participates in the project. Perhaps the Kobe fanbase makes a push to get him back in the top ten. Maybe Garnett gets in, pushing Bird out. Maybe someone pulls an ardee again and sways people to vote for whoever it is they're campaigning for.

I don't disagree. I have a feeling there will be an even stronger push for Garnett this time around. The OP phrased it as if Bird was voted outside the top 10 in the 2014 project, though.

I still have Bird over KG.... At least until arguments are fully formed. And I'm a big longevity guy too. It's just I think Bird was so special that KG's longevity doesn't close the gap for me.

But who knows, the KG crowd is made up of some of our brightest, most well-written posters. I mean having drza as your champion can only be an advantage....

As i’ve always said, the more information we have the better. I’m all for using that information to draw conclusions (be it good or bad) on players past and present.

That said, there’s this idea that you must be wearing nostalgia glasses to believe magic and bird definitely still belong in the top 10. I really think that’s pushing it.

[Dr Positivity]

I think Bird getting more credit for his defense may help him next vote.

[penbeast0]

I think Bird getting more credit for his defense may help him next vote.

Trouble is that from what I saw, that wasn't deserved. Even in his All-D years and at power forward, he never looked like a good defender. He had a lot of steals and was the hot name as a young player but he wasn't a guy I would have out there for defense.

And, when he was put out at wing, he was just too slow to stay with guys. McHale did a lot of covering for Bird defensively, that's not a sign of a good defensive player.

[Texas Chuck]

I think Bird getting more credit for his defense may help him next vote.

Trouble is that from what I saw, that wasn't deserved. Even in his All-D years and at power forward, he never looked like a good defender. He had a lot of steals and was the hot name as a young player but he wasn't a guy I would have out there for defense.

And, when he was put out at wing, he was just too slow to stay with guys. McHale did a lot of covering for Bird defensively, that's not a sign of a good defensive player.

Bird was never a lock down man defender, but his help defense was really good and he was a terrific defensive rebounder. And I'm not huge on the defensive stats we have from the 80's, but every one of them shows Larry Bird to be top-notch defensively. Probably at a minimum means we need consider that he was in fact a plus defender.

Agree of course that he ideally would have played PF defensively.

[Dr Spaceman]

I think Bird getting more credit for his defense may help him next vote.

Trouble is that from what I saw, that wasn't deserved. Even in his All-D years and at power forward, he never looked like a good defender. He had a lot of steals and was the hot name as a young player but he wasn't a guy I would have out there for defense.

And, when he was put out at wing, he was just too slow to stay with guys. McHale did a lot of covering for Bird defensively, that's not a sign of a good defensive player.

Bird was never a lock down man defender, but his help defense was really good and he was a terrific defensive rebounder. And I'm not huge on the defensive stats we have from the 80's, but every one of them shows Larry Bird to be top-notch defensively. Probably at a minimum means we need consider that he was in fact a plus defender.

Agree of course that he ideally would have played PF defensively.

Bird had some of the best hands I've ever seen and a penchant for showing up exactly where he was needed. There's no doubt in my mind he was a positive impact defender.

He still was only the 4th best defender in the starting lineup. I have trouble giving too much credit to Bird when McHale and Parish were just a lot better and true anchors.

That said, Bird does get underrated due to disproportionate focus on man defense at the time. This was an era where MJ was winning DPOY over Hakeem. No doubt in my mind if we looked at things the way we do today he'd be seen as a good defensive player.

[eminence]

Wonder how guys will feel about Walton coming into the project this summer. He basically only had the one year, but looking at the guys who made the very back end last time around I can't say as I'd feel real good about their entire careers over Walton's one year.

[Quotatious]

Wonder how guys will feel about Walton coming into the project this summer. He basically only had the one year, but looking at the guys who made the very back end last time around I can't say as I'd feel real good about their entire careers over Walton's one year.

I wouldn't have Walton in my top 100, personally. His career value is very low. Greatest peaks is a project where Walton can shine, but I would say that even Yao Ming has more career value than Walton, and this top 100 project is more about overall career value than peak, the way I see it.

We really have to establish some kind of consistent criteria this time, before we do the top 100 project again. It would be really weird to see Walton and Parish being ranked right next to each other (I mean just how much different their careers were - personally, I think Walton's peak means very little compared to Parish's longevity on at least fringe all-star level for 15 years).

[Texas Chuck]

Wonder how guys will feel about Walton coming into the project this summer. He basically only had the one year, but looking at the guys who made the very back end last time around I can't say as I'd feel real good about their entire careers over Walton's one year.

Yeah he's a very interesting case. One year of a player that good really helps a team towards the goal of a championship. Is ten seasons of Tony Parker, Melo, or Webber really more valuable than that? Depends on what each of us value.

I'm a big longevity guy, but I'm also big on how much a player increases your chances to be a legit contender. I definitely think Walton will be and should be in the conversation even if the group as a whole ultimately doesn't vote him in.

But everyone has their own approach. I recall last time there being posters against including even a guy like George Mikan because of how much emphasis they put on era.

[Texas Chuck]

We really have to establish some kind of consistent criteria this time, before we do the top 100 project again.

Just my two cents:

I hope "consistent criteria" doesn't limit posters who have non-conforming views from having input on the list. This was a major issue in the last project where we had some users trying to dictate the list towards their personal approach to the point of absurdity.

I love the idea of having participants talk about their personal criteria, but having both a drza and a GSP is very valuable. As is a Dr Spaceman and a penbeast.

I'd hate for any one group to shape the list around their criteria--even if it used exactly my criteria.

[sp6r=underrated]

Once you move beyond the champion or bust, second place is first loser mindset I'm not sure Bill Walton didn't have negative career value over his entire career. If I was drafting for a franchise I would never select Walton.

[Texas Chuck]

Once you move beyond the champion or bust, second place is first loser mindset I'm not sure Bill Walton didn't have negative career value over his entire career. If I was drafting for a franchise I would never select Walton.

that should really depend on your other options in the draft, no? Take the Anthony Bennett draft. I mean Rudy Gobert is a lock to be taken number 1 with hindsight, but how many other players really do meaningfully more for a franchise than Walton did?

Would I trade one MVP-caliber season of Walton for 10 years of CJ McCollum or Steven Adams? I don't think I would. Missing out on one of those players doesn't set my franchise back really. But getting Walton means I have a championship contender assuming I have anything else on my roster.

[eminence]

Once you move beyond the champion or bust, second place is first loser mindset I'm not sure Bill Walton didn't have negative career value over his entire career. If I was drafting for a franchise I would never select Walton.

that should really depend on your other options in the draft, no? Take the Anthony Bennett draft. I mean Rudy Gobert is a lock to be taken number 1 with hindsight, but how many other players really do meaningfully more for a franchise than Walton did?

Would I trade one MVP-caliber season of Walton for 10 years of CJ McCollum or Steven Adams? I don't think I would. Missing out on one of those players doesn't set my franchise back really. But getting Walton means I have a championship contender assuming I have anything else on my roster.

Just gonna say that Giannis would probably go #1 in that draft, though I love Gobert.

But otherwise agreed.

[Texas Chuck]

Once you move beyond the champion or bust, second place is first loser mindset I'm not sure Bill Walton didn't have negative career value over his entire career. If I was drafting for a franchise I would never select Walton.

that should really depend on your other options in the draft, no? Take the Anthony Bennett draft. I mean Rudy Gobert is a lock to be taken number 1 with hindsight, but how many other players really do meaningfully more for a franchise than Walton did?

Would I trade one MVP-caliber season of Walton for 10 years of CJ McCollum or Steven Adams? I don't think I would. Missing out on one of those players doesn't set my franchise back really. But getting Walton means I have a championship contender assuming I have anything else on my roster.

Just gonna say that Giannis would probably go #1 in that draft, though I love Gobert.

But otherwise agreed.

I didn't remember he was in that draft.

Yeah Giannis and Gobert would be guys I'd take ahead of Walton knowing what lay ahead injury-wise.

[sp6r=underrated]

Once you move beyond the champion or bust, second place is first loser mindset I'm not sure Bill Walton didn't have negative career value over his entire career. If I was drafting for a franchise I would never select Walton.

that should really depend on your other options in the draft, no? Take the Anthony Bennett draft. I mean Rudy Gobert is a lock to be taken number 1 with hindsight, but how many other players really do meaningfully more for a franchise than Walton did?

Would I trade one MVP-caliber season of Walton for 10 years of CJ McCollum or Steven Adams? I don't think I would. Missing out on one of those players doesn't set my franchise back really. But getting Walton means I have a championship contender assuming I have anything else on my roster.

There is an opportunity cost to having Walton on your roster. Teams have limited roster spots. Whatever money you invest in him cannot go to other players.

From 75-78, he is only in good health enough to play in the playoffs twice. In one of those seasons he missed enough time that he would have relegated your team to a bottom seed which basically eliminates you from title contention.

From 79-83 he played 47 games total. That's well below replacement value even before you factor in salary. Taking Walton does hold your franchise back significantly for half a decade.

[sp6r=underrated]

his was a major issue in the last project where we had some users trying to dictate the list towards their personal approach to the point of absurdity.

I'll admit I read the last top 100 the least of any of the projects since I've been here. Many of the threads just devolved into proxy warfare in which players were used as stand ins for arguments about RAPM and the box office.

[scrabbarista]

We really have to establish some kind of consistent criteria this time, before we do the top 100 project again. It would be really weird to see Walton and Parish being ranked right next to each other (I mean just how much different their careers were - personally, I think Walton's peak means very little compared to Parish's longevity on at least fringe all-star level for 15 years).

This jumped out at me, as I believe I have Walton and Parish 49th and 50th respectively on my ATG. There's not necessarily any inconsistency here. Everything on my list is either numerically derived or has a direct numerical basis.

Well, I mean, I include awards and stuff, but those are numerical in the sense that they can be counted, and I give a specific number value to them. (Haha)

[Bulls03]

I'm confused at what's going on here, is there an up to date (2017) all time list? I only see 2014.

[SactoKingsFan]

I'm confused at what's going on here, is there an up to date (2017) all time list? I only see 2014.

The 2017 top 100 project hasn't started yet. Should start during summer and will probably take 9+ months to finish.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Bulls03]

I'm confused at what's going on here, is there an up to date (2017) all time list? I only see 2014.

The 2017 top 100 project hasn't started yet. Should start during summer and will probably take 9+ months to finish.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Thanks for the info, is there a more up to date list than the 2014 list?