2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[bmurph128]

Yea I think the only one that can catch Harden now is Steph. And the Warriors will be crushing the Rockets twice here coming up, so he has a shot.

How often has a guy who isn't even a top 5 player in the NBA won MVP?

Steve Nash...and who was his coach...interesting.

This season it's very hard to have Harden outside your top 5. He's been just every bit as good as anyone this year. In an absolute top 5, not solely based on this seasons results (which is what the MVP is supposed to be) he's anywhere from 4-6 with Kawhi and RW.

And people trying to say the MVP season is because of D'Antoni must not have very long memories. Harden had an MVP caliber season with freaking Kevin McHale as their coach.
Seemed like Kevin McHale just drew up pictures of kitties instead of plays during timeouts

Very true.

I just meant that normally, a consensus top 5 player - however you define that - typically will win the MVP award. It's interesting to me that the guys we're primarily debating would be 5 and 6, however you rank them, this year. Maybe not in terms of the season they're having, but if we all did our individual rankings right now, most people would have them at 5 and 6.

I think that's why it seems like there are 5 legit MVP candidates this year.

[bmurph128]

After LeBron, KD, and Curry, top 4-7 players are pretty much on the same level. Actually, among those four players, Harden has the best career résumé in terms of All-NBA first team selections, MVP share, playoff success, etc.

This has been the rating for a good time now. Those 3 are just on another level to everyone else.

And Kawhi has to be over Harden, given his FMVP..

Harden really only has the MVP over Steph due to narrative IMO.

I really dislike Curry. So when I say this, considering my bias against Steph, that tells you something...

Anything Harden has over Westbrook - doesn't Curry have over Harden? With KD going down and if the Warriors keep the number 1 seed....how do you honestly give the MVP to Harden over Curry?

[RightToCensor]

Curry has been 6-4 in games played since KD got hurt in Washington. His averages are 25.7/6.1/5.1 on 44%/36%/91% shooting splits. He's not really playing to his godly standards since KD went down.

The Warriors have clearly declined greatly even though they still control the #1 seed. As a team, they're 6-5 since KD got hurt, which is a .545 win percentage compared to when they were 50-9 before the injury which equates to a .847 win percentage. It should be noted how they almost gave up the first seed after having a huge lead on the Spurs before the Dubs' current 4 game win streak. I can't see how Curry would be getting MVP votes when for 59 games he wasn't the best player on the Warriors, and now that he is, his team has close to a .500 record and his numbers aren't as a impressive compared to Harden and Westbrook.

[Screwston]

After LeBron, KD, and Curry, top 4-7 players are pretty much on the same level. Actually, among those four players, Harden has the best career résumé in terms of All-NBA first team selections, MVP share, playoff success, etc.

This has been the rating for a good time now. Those 3 are just on another level to everyone else.

And Kawhi has to be over Harden, given his FMVP..

Harden really only has the MVP over Steph due to narrative IMO.

I really dislike Curry. So when I say this, considering my bias against Steph, that tells you something...

Anything Harden has over Westbrook - doesn't Curry have over Harden? With KD going down and if the Warriors keep the number 1 seed....how do you honestly give the MVP to Harden over Curry?

Igoudala has a FMVP as well. Kawhi was a 3-4th option on that team.


"How do you honestly"? This dude ain't serious

[Tritodian]

After LeBron, KD, and Curry, top 4-7 players are pretty much on the same level. Actually, among those four players, Harden has the best career résumé in terms of All-NBA first team selections, MVP share, playoff success, etc.

This has been the rating for a good time now. Those 3 are just on another level to everyone else.

And Kawhi has to be over Harden, given his FMVP..

Harden really only has the MVP over Steph due to narrative IMO.

I really dislike Curry. So when I say this, considering my bias against Steph, that tells you something...

Anything Harden has over Westbrook - doesn't Curry have over Harden? With KD going down and if the Warriors keep the number 1 seed....how do you honestly give the MVP to Harden over Curry?

huh? Ever since Durant went down, GSW are 6-4 with Curry averaging 25.8 PPG 4.9 RPG 6.3 APG on 44 FG% and 58.2 TS%.

That's nowhere near as good as what Harden is doing this season, and is not even more efficient than Harden which should be Curry's strong suit.

Also, during the last 10 games without Durant, Klay is averaging 24.7 PPG on 46.9 FG% and 58.3 TS%, which is just as good as Curry's numbers. I don't think Curry is that dominant player anymore, and the only reason I still put him in top 3 is because of the respect factor. If he keeps performing at this level, Curry needs to step down.

[K_chile22]

After LeBron, KD, and Curry, top 4-7 players are pretty much on the same level. Actually, among those four players, Harden has the best career résumé in terms of All-NBA first team selections, MVP share, playoff success, etc.

This has been the rating for a good time now. Those 3 are just on another level to everyone else.

And Kawhi has to be over Harden, given his FMVP..

Harden really only has the MVP over Steph due to narrative IMO.

I really dislike Curry. So when I say this, considering my bias against Steph, that tells you something...

Anything Harden has over Westbrook - doesn't Curry have over Harden? With KD going down and if the Warriors keep the number 1 seed....how do you honestly give the MVP to Harden over Curry?

Harden has been pretty clearly better than Steph this season, no offense to Steph, who is the better player in the abstract

[Impuniti]

Even if Warriors keep the number 1 spot, I think Harden deserves it over Steph even if Steph plays like last season Steph for the rest of the season. Even though Steph is like Lebron as in his playstyle improves team win probability far more than anyone else in the league, he hasn't been consistent enough and that should count for something.

I'd love Steph to win it again, but Harden easily deserves it and it would be unfair. WB should be out of the running but still applauded for one of the most remarkable statistics of this century. Kawhi and LeBron would be good choices if we didn't have such a top quality MVP run this year.

[gmoney411]

Yea I think the only one that can catch Harden now is Steph. And the Warriors will be crushing the Rockets twice here coming up, so he has a shot.

How often has a guy who isn't even a top 5 player in the NBA won MVP?

Steve Nash...and who was his coach...interesting.

This season it's very hard to have Harden outside your top 5. He's been just every bit as good as anyone this year. In an absolute top 5, not solely based on this seasons results (which is what the MVP is supposed to be) he's anywhere from 4-6 with Kawhi and RW.

And people trying to say the MVP season is because of D'Antoni must not have very long memories. Harden had an MVP caliber season with freaking Kevin McHale as their coach.
Seemed like Kevin McHale just drew up pictures of kitties instead of plays during timeouts

Very true.

I just meant that normally, a consensus top 5 player - however you define that - typically will win the MVP award. It's interesting to me that the guys we're primarily debating would be 5 and 6, however you rank them, this year. Maybe not in terms of the season they're having, but if we all did our individual rankings right now, most people would have them at 5 and 6.

I think that's why it seems like there are 5 legit MVP candidates this year.

That would be the case two out of the last 3 years though. Curry was not a consensus top 5 player in 2015. And I think the whole idea that Curry is a lock top 5 and Harden isn't is a stretch. Curry was a hands down better player than Harden last year. No argument. But that is basically the only season since Harden has gotten to the Rockets that you can say that. LeBron is on his own level. After that you have guys like Durant, Curry, Harden, Kawhi, Westbrook on the same level.

[Z Cabarkapa]

Curry Durant Harden James Westbrook Leonard were my 6 candidates this year. Last year Curry was a clear winner by almost every metric. This year I have to strike Curry and Durant partially because of each other and partially because I think Draymond was more valuable than both of them this year. I reluctantly take out Kawhi because SA has shown they can win on nights when he rests, whereas Harden, Westbrook and James are all critical for their teams chances of winning. I take out Westbrook for team performance (historically have to be a top 4 team to be MVP) leaving me with just Lebron and Harden.

Lebron vs Harden is a tough one. RPM has Lebron at #2 and Harden at #12, which is very decisive in Lebron's favor. As for box score stats, Lebron has 26pts-9Reb-8ast/4TO-0.6blk-1.3stl, while Harden has 29pt-8reb-11ast/6TO-0.4blk-1.5stl. Harden is the winner there with 3 more pts, only one fewer rebs, 5 more assists than TOs compared to 4 for Lebron, with combined blocks and steal an exact wash. Based on reputation and the eye test I would never think Harden would equal Lebron in blk+stl, so that shows me that Harden has been trying harder on D this year and Lebron is coasting on that side of the floor. In regards to team success, if Lebron hadn't sat out 8 games CLE would have the better record, but he did sit out and HOU is ahead of them in the standings. Assuming that holds, to me it looks like Harden has put it more effort and achieved better results both in individual stats and in wins for his team.

My vote is Harden.

[Woodsanity]

This is honestly a very tight race with not much separation. Lebron, WB, Harden, Kawhi are all close together. Its going to come down to the wire. I actually think Lebron deserves more credit here.

[HTowns Finest]

This is honestly a very tight race with not much separation. Lebron, WB, Harden, Kawhi are all close together. Its going to come down to the wire. I actually think Lebron deserves more credit here.

I can't vote for a guy that's takes nights off like LeBron does. There are a lot of nights were LeBron is not even the best player on his team. I'm a huge Kawhi fan but I think the Spurs would still be a playoff team with no Kawhi because of their system. Plus Kawhi's stats are not overly impressive. Kawhi is the best 2 way player in the league but he's been the best 2 way player now for several years now. But I don't know if just being the best 2 way player on the second best team in the league constitutes making him the MVP. Westbrook's triple doubles have definitely impressed but his team's record is not great. IMO a player could average 50 points a game but if his team is barely winning or not in a top 3 conference spot that disqualifies that player for the MVP.

What Harden has done this season is extraordinary. 2 50 triple double games in the same calendar month. 7 40 point triple doubles this season. Leading the league in assists. Embracing a new position and excelling at it. 3rd best record in the West and the 3rd best record in the league. Going from being a me first player to a team first player. While not having a single all star or former all star player on his team. Guys like Anderson and Gordon are having careers seasons playing with Harden. James is doing all of this without a missing a single game. It's not just about stats and it's not just about wins, it's a combination of the two. What player has a better combination of wins, stats, and historic triple double games this year than Harden? HARDEN is the REAL MVP.

[Woodsanity]

This is honestly a very tight race with not much separation. Lebron, WB, Harden, Kawhi are all close together. Its going to come down to the wire. I actually think Lebron deserves more credit here.

I can't vote for a guy that's takes nights off like LeBron does. There are a lot of nights were LeBron is not even the best player on his team. I'm a huge Kawhi fan but I think the Spurs would still be a playoff team with no Kawhi because of their system. Plus Kawhi's stats are not overly impressive. Kawhi is the best 2 way player in the league but he's been the best 2 way player now for several years now. But I don't know if just being the best 2 way player on the second best team in the league constitutes making him the MVP. Westbrook's triple doubles have definitely impressed but his team's record is not great. IMO a player could average 50 points a game but if his team is barely winning or not in a top 3 conference spot that disqualifies that player for the MVP.

What Harden has done this season is extraordinary. 2 50 triple double games in the same calendar month. 7 40 point triple doubles this season. Leading the league in assists. Embracing a new position and excelling at it. 3rd best record in the West and the 3rd best record in the league. Going from being a me first player to a team first player. While not having a single all star or former all star player on his team. Guys like Anderson and Gordon are having careers seasons playing with Harden. James is doing all of this without a missing a single game. It's not just about stats and it's not just about wins, it's a combination of the two. What player has a better combination of wins, stats, and historic triple double games this year than Harden? HARDEN is the REAL MVP.

I heavily disagree with the bolded. Kawhi has very impressive stats 26 ppg on 61 TS% with a PER of 28 while playing very good defense.
Sure Harden has better raw stats but that doesn't account for the defensive gap. Lebron does take some nights off which is expected for someone with as much mileage he has but he is the clear cut best player on his team by a large margin on pretty much every given night. Irving can score more occasionally but his impact is nowhere close to Lebron's. Lebron is far better at every aspect of the game and it shows since the Cavs can't even beat scrub teams when he sits. Irving is a great scorer but a **** defender, a poor playmaker and pretty much mediocre at every other aspect of basketball.

Currently Harden is probably the frontrunner but it certainly is close.
I think WB shouldn't qualify strictly because of how MVP's have previously been decided (not enough wins). This is not necessarily WB's fault though, his team is really bad.

[Doctor MJ]

Harden's style of play makes his teammates better and he empowers everyone on the team on the court. Everyone on that team is playing at his optimal level and Harden is doing a perfect job to make sure that is happening on the team. Westbrook's style of play doesn't allow for proper team ball based system. His inability to play off-ball hurts him big time. He tries to do everything on offense which doesn't empower his teammates as much as he should. Even if he was on the Rockets, the players around him won't be optimized like Harden is doing with them atm. This is why Harden is the MVP. His style of play is just better at optimizing players around him. He is more efficient, smarter and easier to play with. That said, one can argue that Westbrook is a better floor raiser than Harden but sure as hell he isn't the better ceiling raiser than Harden. I would take 17 Harden to build a contender around everytime.

The funny thing is, if you said any of that before this season people would have laughed you off the internet.

Yup and rightfully so.

I'm really not surprised Hardens had this success with DAntoni. It's long been clear that he has incredible awareness on the floor. But the way he played in Houston before this just didn't empower his teammates in at all the same way.

This, incidentally is the genius of DAntoni in a nutshell. In certain situations he can galvanize a team to a vastly different altitude in a way in a way few in history have proven they can do.

And James Harden is such a situation.


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[Doctor MJ]

Ftr it occurred to me that because of KAwhis missed games he's actually been in less wins than Harden. That makes it awfully tough to seriously consider him for MVP over Harden.

So right now it's really between Harden and LeBron for me.


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[inquisitive]

Let's just make it easier now. I guess the race now only between Harden and Westbrook. Lebron and Kawhi sitting out games should just eliminate them.

[JordansBulls]

Let's just make it easier now. I guess the race now only between Harden and Westbrook. Lebron and Kawhi sitting out games should just eliminate them.

Not to mention against good teams at that. Sitting out on the road against the Clippers and then playing against the Lakers.

[HTowns Finest]

This is honestly a very tight race with not much separation. Lebron, WB, Harden, Kawhi are all close together. Its going to come down to the wire. I actually think Lebron deserves more credit here.

I can't vote for a guy that's takes nights off like LeBron does. There are a lot of nights were LeBron is not even the best player on his team. I'm a huge Kawhi fan but I think the Spurs would still be a playoff team with no Kawhi because of their system. Plus Kawhi's stats are not overly impressive. Kawhi is the best 2 way player in the league but he's been the best 2 way player now for several years now. But I don't know if just being the best 2 way player on the second best team in the league constitutes making him the MVP. Westbrook's triple doubles have definitely impressed but his team's record is not great. IMO a player could average 50 points a game but if his team is barely winning or not in a top 3 conference spot that disqualifies that player for the MVP.

What Harden has done this season is extraordinary. 2 50 triple double games in the same calendar month. 7 40 point triple doubles this season. Leading the league in assists. Embracing a new position and excelling at it. 3rd best record in the West and the 3rd best record in the league. Going from being a me first player to a team first player. While not having a single all star or former all star player on his team. Guys like Anderson and Gordon are having careers seasons playing with Harden. James is doing all of this without a missing a single game. It's not just about stats and it's not just about wins, it's a combination of the two. What player has a better combination of wins, stats, and historic triple double games this year than Harden? HARDEN is the REAL MVP.

I heavily disagree with the bolded. Kawhi has very impressive stats 26 ppg on 61 TS% with a PER of 28 while playing very good defense.
Sure Harden has better raw stats but that doesn't account for the defensive gap. Lebron does take some nights off which is expected for someone with as much mileage he has but he is the clear cut best player on his team by a large margin on pretty much every given night. Irving can score more occasionally but his impact is nowhere close to Lebron's. Lebron is far better at every aspect of the game and it shows since the Cavs can't even beat scrub teams when he sits. Irving is a great scorer but a **** defender, a poor playmaker and pretty much mediocre at every other aspect of basketball.

Currently Harden is probably the frontrunner but it certainly is close.
I think WB shouldn't qualify strictly because of how MVP's have previously been decided (not enough wins). This is not necessarily WB's fault though, his team is really bad.

The last 2 seasons since Aldridge has been aboard, the Spurs have gone 13-4 without Kawhi Leonard. This year currently Kawhi has 8 double doubles on the season, count them 8. While Harden has 56 and Westbrook has 52 double doubles on the season. Kawhi doesn't lead the league in not a single statistical category. Again Kawhi is having a good but not great season and if removed from the Spurs for any given reason that team would still win. People are pushing the Kawhi narrative imo because he is the best 2 way player currently in the league. Aside from the stats I just presented, I can't personally see Leonard leading a team to a 55+ win season without former all-stars and benefiting from Pops system.

I will agree with you in regards to LeBron being good at a lot of aspects of the game but their are plenty of nights were Irving simply has to will that team to a W. If the game were on the line Kyrie would get the ball for the go ahead basket more times than LeBron. Although I get your Kyrie plays crap defense comment, we both know that the NBA has always been 80% offense 15% defense and 5% luck. You can't stop a great player, most times you can't even contain them but you can limit them to a degree. And Kyrie is a great offensive player, much better than LeBron is on most occasions that was my initial point. But you are correct that LeBron is the better overall player.

I don't agree that Westbrook has a bad team. There are some good players on that roster who plenty of teams could use. Gibson, Oladipo, Sabonis, McDermott, Kanter, Adams all have positive trade value around the league. It's your job as the leader of the team to make all of these parts click. If you can't then you shouldn't be considered for the MVP. Which is my reason for giving the MVP nod to James Harden.

[RCM88x]

I can't vote for a guy that's takes nights off like LeBron does. There are a lot of nights were LeBron is not even the best player on his team. I'm a huge Kawhi fan but I think the Spurs would still be a playoff team with no Kawhi because of their system. Plus Kawhi's stats are not overly impressive. Kawhi is the best 2 way player in the league but he's been the best 2 way player now for several years now. But I don't know if just being the best 2 way player on the second best team in the league constitutes making him the MVP. Westbrook's triple doubles have definitely impressed but his team's record is not great. IMO a player could average 50 points a game but if his team is barely winning or not in a top 3 conference spot that disqualifies that player for the MVP.

What Harden has done this season is extraordinary. 2 50 triple double games in the same calendar month. 7 40 point triple doubles this season. Leading the league in assists. Embracing a new position and excelling at it. 3rd best record in the West and the 3rd best record in the league. Going from being a me first player to a team first player. While not having a single all star or former all star player on his team. Guys like Anderson and Gordon are having careers seasons playing with Harden. James is doing all of this without a missing a single game. It's not just about stats and it's not just about wins, it's a combination of the two. What player has a better combination of wins, stats, and historic triple double games this year than Harden? HARDEN is the REAL MVP.

I heavily disagree with the bolded. Kawhi has very impressive stats 26 ppg on 61 TS% with a PER of 28 while playing very good defense.
Sure Harden has better raw stats but that doesn't account for the defensive gap. Lebron does take some nights off which is expected for someone with as much mileage he has but he is the clear cut best player on his team by a large margin on pretty much every given night. Irving can score more occasionally but his impact is nowhere close to Lebron's. Lebron is far better at every aspect of the game and it shows since the Cavs can't even beat scrub teams when he sits. Irving is a great scorer but a **** defender, a poor playmaker and pretty much mediocre at every other aspect of basketball.

Currently Harden is probably the frontrunner but it certainly is close.
I think WB shouldn't qualify strictly because of how MVP's have previously been decided (not enough wins). This is not necessarily WB's fault though, his team is really bad.

The last 2 seasons since Aldridge has been aboard, the Spurs have gone 13-4 without Kawhi Leonard. This year currently Kawhi has 8 double doubles on the season, count them 8. While Harden has 56 and Westbrook has 52 double doubles on the season. Kawhi doesn't lead the league in not a single statistical category. Again Kawhi is having a good but not great season and if removed from the Spurs for any given reason that team would still win. People are pushing the Kawhi narrative imo because he is the best 2 way player currently in the league. Aside from the stats I just presented, I can't personally see Leonard leading a team to a 55+ win season without former all-stars and benefiting from Pops system.

I will agree with you in regards to LeBron being good at a lot of aspects of the game but their are plenty of nights were Irving simply has to will that team to a W. If the game were on the line Kyrie would get the ball for the go ahead basket more times than LeBron. Although I get your Kyrie plays crap defense comment, we both know that the NBA has always been 80% offense 15% defense and 5% luck. You can't stop a great player, most times you can't even contain them but you can limit them to a degree. And Kyrie is a great offensive player, much better than LeBron is on most occasions that was my initial point. But you are correct that LeBron is the better overall player.

I don't agree that Westbrook has a bad team. There are some good players on that roster who plenty of teams could use. Gibson, Oladipo, Sabonis, McDermott, Kanter, Adams all have positive trade value around the league. It's your job as the leader of the team to make all of these parts click. If you can't then you shouldn't be considered for the MVP. Which is my reason for giving the MVP nod to James Harden.

Kyrie's not a better offensive player than Lebron lmao. Perhaps a better scorer at times, but not better offensively, not even close.

There probably isn't a single stat on the planet that gives Kyrie the edge offensively this season.

[HTowns Finest]

I heavily disagree with the bolded. Kawhi has very impressive stats 26 ppg on 61 TS% with a PER of 28 while playing very good defense.
Sure Harden has better raw stats but that doesn't account for the defensive gap. Lebron does take some nights off which is expected for someone with as much mileage he has but he is the clear cut best player on his team by a large margin on pretty much every given night. Irving can score more occasionally but his impact is nowhere close to Lebron's. Lebron is far better at every aspect of the game and it shows since the Cavs can't even beat scrub teams when he sits. Irving is a great scorer but a **** defender, a poor playmaker and pretty much mediocre at every other aspect of basketball.

Currently Harden is probably the frontrunner but it certainly is close.
I think WB shouldn't qualify strictly because of how MVP's have previously been decided (not enough wins). This is not necessarily WB's fault though, his team is really bad.

The last 2 seasons since Aldridge has been aboard, the Spurs have gone 13-4 without Kawhi Leonard. This year currently Kawhi has 8 double doubles on the season, count them 8. While Harden has 56 and Westbrook has 52 double doubles on the season. Kawhi doesn't lead the league in not a single statistical category. Again Kawhi is having a good but not great season and if removed from the Spurs for any given reason that team would still win. People are pushing the Kawhi narrative imo because he is the best 2 way player currently in the league. Aside from the stats I just presented, I can't personally see Leonard leading a team to a 55+ win season without former all-stars and benefiting from Pops system.

I will agree with you in regards to LeBron being good at a lot of aspects of the game but their are plenty of nights were Irving simply has to will that team to a W. If the game were on the line Kyrie would get the ball for the go ahead basket more times than LeBron. Although I get your Kyrie plays crap defense comment, we both know that the NBA has always been 80% offense 15% defense and 5% luck. You can't stop a great player, most times you can't even contain them but you can limit them to a degree. And Kyrie is a great offensive player, much better than LeBron is on most occasions that was my initial point. But you are correct that LeBron is the better overall player.

I don't agree that Westbrook has a bad team. There are some good players on that roster who plenty of teams could use. Gibson, Oladipo, Sabonis, McDermott, Kanter, Adams all have positive trade value around the league. It's your job as the leader of the team to make all of these parts click. If you can't then you shouldn't be considered for the MVP. Which is my reason for giving the MVP nod to James Harden.

Kyrie's not a better offensive player than Lebron lmao. Perhaps a better scorer at times, but not better offensively, not even close.

There probably isn't a single stat on the planet that gives Kyrie the edge offensively this season.

You gotta lay off that BSPN dude. Off with your LeBron James is the greatest player ever narrative bro. Leave Sports Center alone. The only thing that LeBron does at an elite level offensively is go to the hoop and find open teammates. Kyrie has a better handle than LeBron, is a better shooter than LeBron (not counting dunks and layups), and is WAY MORE CLUTCH than LeBron will ever be. Please explain to me what makes LeBron so great offensively besides the things I already stated.

[MisterHibachi]

The last 2 seasons since Aldridge has been aboard, the Spurs have gone 13-4 without Kawhi Leonard. This year currently Kawhi has 8 double doubles on the season, count them 8. While Harden has 56 and Westbrook has 52 double doubles on the season. Kawhi doesn't lead the league in not a single statistical category. Again Kawhi is having a good but not great season and if removed from the Spurs for any given reason that team would still win. People are pushing the Kawhi narrative imo because he is the best 2 way player currently in the league. Aside from the stats I just presented, I can't personally see Leonard leading a team to a 55+ win season without former all-stars and benefiting from Pops system.

I will agree with you in regards to LeBron being good at a lot of aspects of the game but their are plenty of nights were Irving simply has to will that team to a W. If the game were on the line Kyrie would get the ball for the go ahead basket more times than LeBron. Although I get your Kyrie plays crap defense comment, we both know that the NBA has always been 80% offense 15% defense and 5% luck. You can't stop a great player, most times you can't even contain them but you can limit them to a degree. And Kyrie is a great offensive player, much better than LeBron is on most occasions that was my initial point. But you are correct that LeBron is the better overall player.

I don't agree that Westbrook has a bad team. There are some good players on that roster who plenty of teams could use. Gibson, Oladipo, Sabonis, McDermott, Kanter, Adams all have positive trade value around the league. It's your job as the leader of the team to make all of these parts click. If you can't then you shouldn't be considered for the MVP. Which is my reason for giving the MVP nod to James Harden.

Kyrie's not a better offensive player than Lebron lmao. Perhaps a better scorer at times, but not better offensively, not even close.

There probably isn't a single stat on the planet that gives Kyrie the edge offensively this season.

You gotta lay off that BSPN dude. Off with your LeBron James is the greatest player ever narrative bro. Leave Sports Center alone. The only thing that LeBron does at an elite level offensively is go to the hoop and find open teammates. Kyrie has a better handle than LeBron, is a better shooter than LeBron (not counting dunks and layups), and is WAY MORE CLUTCH than LeBron will ever be. Please explain to me what makes LeBron so great offensively besides the things I already stated.

Classic ballboy.