Political Roundtable Part XIII

[gtn130]

Or even more so, how those from a specific party worship their own politicians

I don't think I've ever uttered a single word of praise for a democrat in this thread. I ~mostly~ hate the democrats, and vote for them entirely because of the principles they ostensibly represent.

[dckingsfan]

Or even more so, how those from a specific party worship their own politicians

I don't think I've ever uttered a single word of praise for a democrat in this thread. I ~mostly~ hate the democrats, and vote for them entirely because of the principles they ostensibly represent.

Definitely wasn't picking on you - it was just a general statement...

If business folks get involved in politics and scramble the nonsense of how we are currently polarized - all for it.

[dckingsfan]

Do you think politicians don't have any business intelligence or work with consultants or interact with sentient human beings who operate businesses?

Yes, but only when it is in their best interests.

How precisely would a business owner like Mark Cuban fix these issues in a way that politicians are incapable of doing themselves?

The question is, what third rails can Cuban touch that ordinary politicians can't or won't.

It's sad how Americans worship wealthy business owners.

Or even more so, how those from a specific party worship their own politicians

Ok, so business owners are inherently more noble and altruistic than politicians because ~reasons~

And Mark Cuban could possibly touch 'third rails' that we have no idea about and can only imagine, therefore businesspeople > politicians at politics.

Story checks out.

Nope. They aren't more altruistic. But they aren't tied to the parties as much either.

And Trump for all his foibles was able to touch many third rails that traditional Rs were never able. Bloomberg would be a good example. Never really checked out Cuban - I just haven't done the research to figure out where he stands.

But if you wanted me to choose between Hillary and Bloomberg

[DCZards]

If business folks get involved in politics and scramble the nonsense of how we are currently polarized - all for it.

The businessman we have in the WH currently has done just the opposite. This country is more polarized than it's ever been, thanks to the Liar-in-Chief.

[pcbothwel]

Do you think politicians don't have any business intelligence or work with consultants or interact with sentient human beings who operate businesses?

Yes, but only when it is in their best interests.

How precisely would a business owner like Mark Cuban fix these issues in a way that politicians are incapable of doing themselves?

The question is, what third rails can Cuban touch that ordinary politicians can't or won't.

It's sad how Americans worship wealthy business owners.

Or even more so, how those from a specific party worship their own politicians

Ok, so business owners are inherently more noble and altruistic than politicians because ~reasons~

And Mark Cuban could possibly touch 'third rails' that we have no idea about and can only imagine, therefore businesspeople > politicians at politics.

Story checks out.

Politicians are mostly unimaginative and rely on institutional knowledge and procedure. Entrepreneurs are willing to step outside of the box and ask questions, which is why you have Uber, Amazon, Netflix, and Waze.

I remember the media blasting Trump when it was reported that he asked his cabinet/intel about proliferation of Nukes. They called him ignorant, but never actually stepped back and realized the greatest businesses in the world routinely ask very basic and fundamental questions about their vision, offerings, and process. Why? Because putting your head down and grinding allows you to be productive, but you really cant see where you're going.
As a country, our politicians routinely adopt institutional platforms and apply methodology that were created generations ago.

Think of it this way. There are some great athletes that cant hit a golf ball to save their life, but little guys like Gary Player and Bubba can hit 100 balls over 200 yards within 5 feet of each other. The athlete (Jordan, Barkley, etc.) certainly has the foundation to hit the ball, but they havent put in the thousands of hours it requires for it to be a 2nd nature motor skill.

Entrepreneurs (Cuban in this example) have spent decades thinking this way and so they are not only brilliant, but they have trained their brain to operate from this mindset... question everything and dont fear change.
Some politicians may be very smart (Jordan and Barkley were great athletes), but that doenst mean they can re-wire their brain to view problem solving through the lense of someone from a different background.

[Induveca]

Awful terror incident underway in London, apparently 12+ run over in a Nice style terror attack, terrorist shouting in Arabic gunned down. Ugh.

[FAH1223]

Watch on YouTube

I'm curious. Do you actually watch RT? If so, why?

Of course. I watch programming on all international media. RT, CGTN, Al Jazeera are the three I watch the most. I listen to BBC everyday.

American networks are not comprehensive in coverage of world events and the cable networks only talk about Trump and the issues inside the Beltway. There's not a lot of documentaries or stories about outside the beltway and the decline of the American middle class or about the poor which I'm seeing by international state run outlets.

Thom Hartmann's show is on RT and he has full editorial control of his show. He talks about the issues and I've listened to his radio show. If you think he's a Russian propogandist, I don't know what to tell you.

They have other good shows like Keiser Report, Boom Bust. The RT America programming is more liberal progressive. They covered Occupy Wall Street really well in 2011. I mean, Larry King is on RT too.

And I started watching it more to get more of the facts on the ground with regards to Syria as they actually have correspondents on the ground in the theatre where ISIS is fighting and I could contrast their coverage in Aleppo with the other networks who are reporting from Lebanon and Turkey.

Its Kremlin funded, so yeah, especially international news will have that point of view but its good to understand it.

[DCZards]

Trump is in way over his head, and if his presidency continues to be a failure, traditional politicians will suddenly become a lot more popular than they were in 2016.

Agree. The worst part is that the fact that Trump continues to show that he's a "serial liar," which even most of his supporters agree is true, which is doing serious credibility of the presidency and the nation, particularly on the international stage. If he continues with his current behavior, Trump will indeed make it harder for a nonpolitician to be elected president in the future.

[popper]

I could maybe get on board with a businessperson as a presidential candidate if they:

-release their tax returns
-have a deep understanding of technology
-have a strong track record of success and innovation in their field (obviously)
-have a reasonably strong academic background
-have held an office even if it's for a year or two
-have a demonstrable willingness to learn about government, foreign relations, etc
-have a modicum of intellectual curiosity
-are considered principled, honest, high integrity etc by their peers

Trump checks literally none of those boxes

Such a man (Romney) was defeated in 2012 much to my chagrin. It's a shame IMO and left us with Trump instead.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I do want to point out that those elite government officials with the deep government knowledge have driven our country to the edge of bankruptcy.

They don't address the issue and kick it down the road. Although they don't lie - it is really just as bad.

So, you might get a bit of pushback on that tiny little issue

To be fair, businesses go bankrupt far often than governments. I get the idea of not wanting the same political financial management, but the idea that the private sector somehow offers up all the answers is just flat out wrong. There are things that can be learned from the private sector, but unless you're in the mood for competing governments where one can fail and another can rise to replace it, then you have to be willing to accept that the answers are going to be significantly different in some respects. I do think we need creative thinkers now more than ever in politics, but the political climate is so fractured and both sides are so unwilling to listen to answers they haven't already decided upon themselves that I think we might be less likely than ever to have those kinds of figures step forward.

[sfam]

It isn't - but we can't really afford it now. I would rather see that cut than things like Meals on Wheels.

I'd rather cut extraneous defense spending. That's where the money is. Does next generation air craft carriers help us against ISIS? I could go down the line. Defense spending is largely just middle class welfare.

And again, defunding the UN will cost us far more in instability and coin. Pennywise, pound foolish.

Agreed on the extraneous defense spending. But... if you have a choice between Meals on Wheels and the UN, which do you choose.

This is actually not a false choice since we going to have to cut defense as well.

I choose Meals on Wheels.

This is a completely false choice, but clearly Meals on Wheels has no downside or problem in any way. Its a great safety net program.

[sfam]

WSJ now taking to calling Trump the "fake president" - ouch.

Anyone have the tweet?

More liberal lame stream media commentary, ey....

Wait, the WSJ?

[sfam]

Popper seems a Trump supporter, not sure he voted.

I vote. Held my nose and voted for Trump knowing he's an ignorant Manhattan bully, serial liar, etc. for reasons having to do with judicial appointments and the rule of law. Feinstein's recent comment during the Gorsuch hearing vindicates my thinking as she admitted that she believes in a living constitution; meaning that her ideal judge would act like a politician and render judgement based not on constitutional law but on popular whim.

I feel the same Popper.

Sfam, Poppers reply somewhat answers your question to me about what would make me regret voting for him.
- Getting healthcare through that give more power to the states, increases competition, and reduces drug prices is big.
- Reducing/simplifying taxes along with repatriation of offshore revenue is almost as big.
- But getting 2 conservative judges on the Supreme court is HUGE.

Assuming the above is done, Trump would have to do something REALLY crazy to get me off the bandwagon. If only because those policies/appointments will far outlast Trump himself.

Another thing Trump has done that all Americans should be happy about... He broke the mold for running for president. Everyone always complains about politicians and ask "Is this the best we really have?"
The answer has always been..No. The "Best" people make too much money and like their privacy to consider running. But Trump showed a road-map on how non politicians can run for office.
- Use social media to speak directly to the people
- Be honest about your past, but dont cower to PC media if they try to use some past incident to paint your life.
- Show that you have a history of success/organizational building that far exceeds what other politicians have done.

There is a reason Oprah and Mark Cuban are thinking about running, and thats because of Trump. All Americans should be happy that the pool is getting broader.

I cannot imagine why anyone would be happy about that. This is akin to saying Trump broke the mold for doctors, and now anyone can be a doctor, even if they have no clue or training. That Mark Cuban or Opera want to run for President does not fill me with happiness.

There is actually a body of knowledge around governing. You may hate how its done, but simply eliminating knowledge associated with good governance will not yield positive outcomes. Imagine if you will that actually knowing something about how the world works, and governance in particular might aid you in your ability to execute the mission of the Presidency.

[dckingsfan]

I do want to point out that those elite government officials with the deep government knowledge have driven our country to the edge of bankruptcy.

They don't address the issue and kick it down the road. Although they don't lie - it is really just as bad.

So, you might get a bit of pushback on that tiny little issue

To be fair, businesses go bankrupt far often than governments. I get the idea of not wanting the same political financial management, but the idea that the private sector somehow offers up all the answers is just flat out wrong. There are things that can be learned from the private sector, but unless you're in the mood for competing governments where one can fail and another can rise to replace it, then you have to be willing to accept that the answers are going to be significantly different in some respects. I do think we need creative thinkers now more than ever in politics, but the political climate is so fractured and both sides are so unwilling to listen to answers they haven't already decided upon themselves that I think we might be less likely than ever to have those kinds of figures step forward.

Valid points. Governments rarely go bankrupt - in the case of the federal government - they can print more money. State governments aren't allowed to declare bankruptcy, but you get the idea

But to your point - which I think is the gist of the matter - we need those that can cut through the chatter and to the heart of the matters. I don't think either of us care if they come from business, government, entertainment or what have you.

Example: Healthcare
It isn't sustainable - it shouldn't be a third-rail issue. It should be front and center.

Who is going to step up and say that the King isn't wearing cloths on this issue? The traditional politicians have used this issue as a political football. Neither has a meaningful solution.

[sfam]

There is a reason Oprah and Mark Cuban are thinking about running, and thats because of Trump. All Americans should be happy that the pool is getting broader.

Might not agree with the rest of the post - but you are right. If there is a best thing about Trump getting elected it is this... We may finally have a counterweight to the elite in this country.

Yeah, this is BS reasoning at its finest. Lets get rid of all the elites at the hospitals too. Let me pick my own drugs, thank you! While were at it, lets get rid of the elite engineers building our airplanes. Opera can probably do that better as well.

This idea that lack of knowledge has been a valued trait is F'ing crazy - there is no positive that I can come up with. Opera is a great entertainer. I really dont think she has a lot to add on the devising the best strategy to deal with violent extremism, and then to build a coalition to address it.

Instead of advocating for rich celebrities without background or skill to come in an save Washington, why don't we address the underlying systemic problems? I think we might find the outcomes are better.

or we could just elect random celebrities. Kanye West 2020!

[sfam]

And here we have the impact of the credibility gap

Read on Twitter

Maybe the laptop ban makes viable security sense, based on an actual threat. But the fact that it only targets Muslim countries will make literally everyone question this. Every action like this will be questioned and attacked, whether or not it makes sense.

[sfam]

Running government like a business is a complete fallacy, and that's probably the root of our disagreement here.

I do want to point out that those elite government officials with the deep government knowledge have driven our country to the edge of bankruptcy.

They don't address the issue and kick it down the road. Although they don't lie - it is really just as bad.

So, you might get a bit of pushback on that tiny little issue

So by this logic if you think Doctors "made you sick" will you visit the local grocery store clerk for your next health checkup?

And really, those elites who come up with these crazy airline policies have to go. I want Opera flying my plane dammit! I bet she lets me use my laptop!

[dckingsfan]

Running government like a business is a complete fallacy, and that's probably the root of our disagreement here.

I do want to point out that those elite government officials with the deep government knowledge have driven our country to the edge of bankruptcy.

They don't address the issue and kick it down the road. Although they don't lie - it is really just as bad.

So, you might get a bit of pushback on that tiny little issue

So by this logic if you think Doctors "made you sick"...

So by this logic, the politicians had nothing to do with the fine mess we find ourselves in

Please - recheck you logic.

[dckingsfan]

There is a reason Oprah and Mark Cuban are thinking about running, and thats because of Trump. All Americans should be happy that the pool is getting broader.

Might not agree with the rest of the post - but you are right. If there is a best thing about Trump getting elected it is this... We may finally have a counterweight to the elite in this country.

Yeah, this is BS reasoning at its finest. Lets get rid of all the elites at the hospitals too. Let me pick my own drugs, thank you! While were at it, lets get rid of the elite engineers building our airplanes. Opera can probably do that better as well.

This idea that lack of knowledge has been a valued trait is F'ing crazy - there is no positive that I can come up with. Opera is a great entertainer. I really dont think she has a lot to add on the devising the best strategy to deal with violent extremism, and then to build a coalition to address it.

Instead of advocating for rich celebrities without background or skill to come in an save Washington, why don't we address the underlying systemic problems? I think we might find the outcomes are better.

or we could just elect random celebrities. Kanye West 2020!

Out of context. My point is if they can touch the third-rail issues that traditional politicians can't or won't.

The truth is our current politicians aren't willing to or can't address the underlying issues in the country. But you are advocating for more of the same. You might find some people won't follow you down that path.

[doclinkin]

There is a reason Oprah and Mark Cuban are thinking about running, and thats because of Trump. All Americans should be happy that the pool is getting broader.

Might not agree with the rest of the post - but you are right. If there is a best thing about Trump getting elected it is this... We may finally have a counterweight to the elite in this country.

Yeah, this is BS reasoning at its finest. Lets get rid of all the elites at the hospitals too. Let me pick my own drugs, thank you! While were at it, lets get rid of the elite engineers building our airplanes. Opera can probably do that better as well.

This idea that lack of knowledge has been a valued trait is F'ing crazy - there is no positive that I can come up with. [Oprah] is a great entertainer. I really dont think she has a lot to add on the devising the best strategy to deal with violent extremism, and then to build a coalition to address it.

Instead of advocating for rich celebrities without background or skill to come in an save Washington, why don't we address the underlying systemic problems? I think we might find the outcomes are better.

Absurd as it seems to consider, and to find ourselves discussing. I actually think Oprah would've done a far better job as an executive than Trump does. A good job in general. Her management style seems similar to what the best presidents do: assemble a team of extremely knowledgeable people who have the ability to work together, question them rigorously to understand an issue, solicit differing opinions, consider the evidence, and then execute and sell the decision to the general public.

The president does not need to be an expert on every topic. Just be able to hear good advice and make far-reaching decisions based on that advice. Oprah has worked her way up from addict to billionaire. I'd bet she has a good sense of what decisions are for the good of the country as a whole. If we were to have chosen an outsider candidate to build consensus on the direction our country should travel in I wish we had selected someone more like this than one who's instinct is to govern by lies and fear and false bravado and bluster.